Hey guys,
I'm not sure if this has ever been addressed as I'm just getting back into the net resources for Shadowrun. But I'm curious as to how the changes in the magic system from third to fourth edition is going to be/being addressed. The first thought I had about it was that maybe we're all using the Unified Magical Theory that Schwartzkopf, Great Dragon at the University of Prague, was cooking up. Any thoughts on what the explanation is going to be, or if it's just going to be glossed over.
Full Version: 3rd to 4th edition magic
What changes in particular are you wondering about?
Probably how hermetics are able to spontaneiusly summon spirits and have mentors, shamans are able to bind spirits, illusions have gone from being fairly easy to affect cameras (one success w/ Force 4-5 versus 3-4 successes now, on a system which generally lowers the total dice thrown at a test), the fact that the average Magic attribute is now roughly half what it was in 2060, with all the resulting changes to how large a ward the average mage can make, the fact that watchers can't actually watch anything anymore...
You get the idea. Personally I perfer the "shut-your-eyes-and-assume-that's-the-way-it-always-was" method, rather than trying to explain how the idiosyncrasies of the new system came to pass.
You get the idea. Personally I perfer the "shut-your-eyes-and-assume-that's-the-way-it-always-was" method, rather than trying to explain how the idiosyncrasies of the new system came to pass.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Probably how hermetics are able to spontaneiusly summon spirits and have mentors, shamans are able to bind spirits, illusions have gone from being fairly easy to affect cameras (one success w/ Force 4-5 versus 3-4 successes now, on a system which generally lowers the total dice thrown at a test), the fact that the average Magic attribute is now roughly half what it was in 2060, with all the resulting changes to how large a ward the average mage can make, the fact that watchers can't actually watch anything anymore... You get the idea. Personally I perfer the "shut-your-eyes-and-assume-that's-the-way-it-always-was" method, rather than trying to explain how the idiosyncrasies of the new system came to pass. |
I'd shut my eyes to things like the affecting cameras. You could maybe explain the change in average magic attribute by saying that at the start of the magic cycle, only the truly gifted awoke to their power but now less powerful people are beginning to tune in as the cycle progresses. And magical testing procedures are now effective and also more common, leading to a lot of more borderline cases being noticed and trained.
Can't help you with the spirits, though. I still think a lot of flavour and interesting character choice has been lost in 4th because of this change.
6 was never the average magic attribute. It was simply the starting essence value of most characters. It is easy to loose magic points in SR3.
There are two types of changes to consider. There are fluff changes and there are mechanics changes.
The big fluff changes can be attributed to UMT. Mechanics changes are a bit more complicated. The magic attribute is far more important in SR4 than it was in SR3. For practical purposes a single SR4 attribute point is worth far more than a single SR3 attribute point ever was. For that reason it isn't wise to compare average attributes.
There are two types of changes to consider. There are fluff changes and there are mechanics changes.
The big fluff changes can be attributed to UMT. Mechanics changes are a bit more complicated. The magic attribute is far more important in SR4 than it was in SR3. For practical purposes a single SR4 attribute point is worth far more than a single SR3 attribute point ever was. For that reason it isn't wise to compare average attributes.
UMT can handle some stuff. The rest, like how it's suddenly a lot harder to affect electronics and so on?
I'd suggest retcon. It Has Always Been Like This. No, Seriously.
I'd suggest retcon. It Has Always Been Like This. No, Seriously.
Well, UMT is probably the only explanation for the new spirits rules.
Have someone win the '67 or '68 Nobel Prize for this one, probably a research team associated with Schwarzkopf. Have a lot of 'street level research' have helped them.
For Magic Attribute : Remember that ALL Atrributes scaled with SR3 -> SR4, factor of 1.5.
A Magic Attribute of 6 in SR3 SHOULD be the same as Magic 4 in SR4 (works fine with sorcery and conjuring, just adept rules suck some as costs weren't scaled to reflect this ...)
For Illusion spells affecting tech : there really hasn't been so much of change, as cameras still record the illusion as desired (if it is physical) - the Object Resistance is only important to overcome if AN INTELLIGENT BEING observes the recorded image. If you don't overcome the Object Reseistance, the Observer won't be fooled - any automated system will still react to the illusion as if it was real.
At least that's the way I tend to interpret that rule.
Have someone win the '67 or '68 Nobel Prize for this one, probably a research team associated with Schwarzkopf. Have a lot of 'street level research' have helped them.
For Magic Attribute : Remember that ALL Atrributes scaled with SR3 -> SR4, factor of 1.5.
A Magic Attribute of 6 in SR3 SHOULD be the same as Magic 4 in SR4 (works fine with sorcery and conjuring, just adept rules suck some as costs weren't scaled to reflect this ...)
For Illusion spells affecting tech : there really hasn't been so much of change, as cameras still record the illusion as desired (if it is physical) - the Object Resistance is only important to overcome if AN INTELLIGENT BEING observes the recorded image. If you don't overcome the Object Reseistance, the Observer won't be fooled - any automated system will still react to the illusion as if it was real.
At least that's the way I tend to interpret that rule.
I really wish that they at least would have added Spirits of Wood into the Hermetic tradition for the linked spirit type to go with Health spells. I can go with a modified five-element hermetic system far more easily than giving them Spirits of Man. 
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
| I really wish that they at least would have added Spirits of Wood into the Hermetic tradition for the linked spirit type to go with Health spells. I can go with a modified five-element hermetic system far more easily than giving them Spirits of Man. |
Maybe it's something to do with fall-out from all the magical chaos caused by the Year of the Comet? And/or maybe the new suspiciously-more-magical Matrix 2.0 having effects that resonate into the astral realm?
And/or "a wizard did it."
And/or "a wizard did it."
as the changes in magic are already discussed here, i have another question:
did someone ever wonder about the new manifesting? the topic was discussed heavyly over at the german SR-board. as the SR4-book tells, manifesting is like extending ones senses onto the physical plane. just some sort of reverse astral perception. the conclusion, that was drawn from that is, that a astrally projecting mage that manifests can now percive physically
(and so read street-signs, newsletters, maybe even stuff on monitors).
any ideas on that problem? or is may mage now a super spy, if there isn't any magic restitance?
did someone ever wonder about the new manifesting? the topic was discussed heavyly over at the german SR-board. as the SR4-book tells, manifesting is like extending ones senses onto the physical plane. just some sort of reverse astral perception. the conclusion, that was drawn from that is, that a astrally projecting mage that manifests can now percive physically
(and so read street-signs, newsletters, maybe even stuff on monitors).any ideas on that problem? or is may mage now a super spy, if there isn't any magic restitance?
| QUOTE (SCARed) |
| did someone ever wonder about the new manifesting? the topic was discussed heavyly over at the german SR-board. as the SR4-book tells, manifesting is like extending ones senses onto the physical plane. just some sort of reverse astral perception. the conclusion, that was drawn from that is, that a astrally projecting mage that manifests can now percive physically (and so read street-signs, newsletters, maybe even stuff on monitors). any ideas on that problem? or is may mage now a super spy, if there isn't any magic restitance? |
I'll see your astral spy and raise you a ward and a security magician (and her bound spirit).
Translation for the Sarcasm Impaired (i.e. Germans):
I don't think it's a problem. I mean, a Rating 1 ward around sensitive areas will pretty much do the same thing a motion sensor will, since the ward's caster knows immediately when somebody starts monkeying with it. A hundred years ago, corporations and governments ponied up for physical security. Then the Internet came along and they ponied up for network security. When magic comes along, why wouldn't they pony up for magical security?
Magical security issues aside, I'm not keen on the idea. The clear purpose of manifestation is to allow astrallly projecting characters to appear to and communicate with people on the physical plane. I don't think it should be a substitute for actually being there in the flesh.
Yes the rulebook does say it is "the opposite of astral perception—the extending of the senses onto the physical plane", but I think that's a bit too vague to conclude that you can sense as if you were physically there.
Your physical senses are shaped by your meat body. If you are astrally perceiving or projecting, you are seeing not with your eyes but with your mind (the same goes for communication). Manifesting doesn't create physical eyes and ears for you (IMO) so why should you sense as if your meat body was present?
Yes the rulebook does say it is "the opposite of astral perception—the extending of the senses onto the physical plane", but I think that's a bit too vague to conclude that you can sense as if you were physically there.
Your physical senses are shaped by your meat body. If you are astrally perceiving or projecting, you are seeing not with your eyes but with your mind (the same goes for communication). Manifesting doesn't create physical eyes and ears for you (IMO) so why should you sense as if your meat body was present?
I'd agree with Witness about manifesting. Its intent was to allow a magician to communicate with his team from the astral without having to spend a complex action reuniting with his body (it was complex in SR3, but I can find no mention of it in SR4, while manifesting is listed in SR4 as simple). It is also intuitive that your senses are restricted to the psychic nature of astral perception even when your ghost is present on the physical plane.
As far as changes in magical theory. There are bound to have been developments. In my campaign world the identification of "ghosts" as spirits of man and the subsequent development of ways to summon them resulted in a Nobel prize for Thaumaturgy for the hermetics that found it. The discovery of ways to summon spirits without binding them is also understandable.
I think SR4 has abstracted the rules, allowing any explanation a player cares to come up with for why their particular character is magically active, rather than having mechanics listed for a set selection of magical philosphies. TBH the number of varying traditions listed in Magic in the Shadows was getting pretty top-heavy. I prefer the free-er system of "decide what spirits you summon for which kinds of spell domains, decide how you resist drain and then explain what philosophy and trappings you use to cast magic". There is the possibility of munchkins deciding to cast the power through the force of their minds with no physical indications of their power, but that's up to the GM to control.
As far as changes in magical theory. There are bound to have been developments. In my campaign world the identification of "ghosts" as spirits of man and the subsequent development of ways to summon them resulted in a Nobel prize for Thaumaturgy for the hermetics that found it. The discovery of ways to summon spirits without binding them is also understandable.
I think SR4 has abstracted the rules, allowing any explanation a player cares to come up with for why their particular character is magically active, rather than having mechanics listed for a set selection of magical philosphies. TBH the number of varying traditions listed in Magic in the Shadows was getting pretty top-heavy. I prefer the free-er system of "decide what spirits you summon for which kinds of spell domains, decide how you resist drain and then explain what philosophy and trappings you use to cast magic". There is the possibility of munchkins deciding to cast the power through the force of their minds with no physical indications of their power, but that's up to the GM to control.
I expect a lot of these questions to be answered in Street Magic, with the rest left up to GM interpretation.
Shouldn’t a mage’s manifestation capabilities be (on some level) like those of a spirit? Granted, I don’t imagine manifesting would provide the exact same perception that you would see from your meat body, but if a mage has trouble seeing while manifested your spirit should also have trouble with his perception during manifestation, which as far as I know isn't true.
Mages manifest, not materialize.
edit: got 'em backwards the first time around.
edit: got 'em backwards the first time around.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Mages materialize, not manifest. |
Strike that; reverse it.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I'll see your astral spy and raise you a ward and a security magician (and her bound spirit). Translation for the Sarcasm Impaired (i.e. Germans): |
@Aaron: what makes you believe, i'm not fine with sarcasm? I even love to be cynic quite often. *g* (no harm was done)
sure thing about your ward. and they're not even to expensive (your force 1 ward costs only 100 Nuyen). (and you can simply build that lab beneath the earth's surface and guard the elevator with a more powerful ward to keep projecting mages out of your stuff.)
@Witness and ornot: i see (or saw) manifesting just as you do. for communicating purposes, mainly.
the explanation by the german "official" rules-guy on the board kept quite hard to the book. and the arguments (in general) were also, that if you can make yourself seen by other via that psychic effect, perhaps the link offers in return input from their physical senses to make you get a glimpse at the physical world, too.
on the idea of the manifesting spirits: good point. but:
1) there are no rules on how spirits perceive. neither when they manifest, nor when they materialize (in that case they're dual natured being and should see both planes at the same time).
2) nothing is said exactly, if dual-natured beings can "turn off" some of their perception. if they can't, dragons can't even watch trid!
3) i'm quite sure, that spirits can perceive the physical world. at least a spirit could read signs and stuff for you while you were projecting in earlier editions (AFAIR). but no explanations were made, how that worked exactly. staying by the rules as they are now, i don't see spirits reading ... (because of the "overlay" of the astral perception.)
i really hope that this point (manifesting) is explained a little better in the "Street Magic". i know how it worked in the earlier editions, but who knows, maybe it was intended to be changed to this.
Going by RAW, SR4 explicitly states (p.182) that Astral Perception is not an "overlay". While astrally percieving "it is not possible to see both (planes) at the same time, though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail". Since a manifest form is dual-natured and continually astrally percieving it is still unable to read and make out details on the physical even when manifest.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Since a manifest form is dual-natured |
wrong ... Manifestation is most definitely not dual-natured (and that's the reason why that "can be affected by mana-based effects"- part is a pain in the ass, when it comes to planes and their barriers) ...
| QUOTE |
| and continually astrally percieving it is still unable to read and make out details on the physical even when manifest. |
The question is: Provided that Manifestation really was something like astral perception in the reverse (ignoring some limiting factors that come right after the sentence that says so), a magician then could switch between two forms of perception and then end up with the same dilemma a SR4 (true) dual-being (like a shifter) has: Accodring to the rules on dual-beings, the limitations of astral perception apply. With active Astral perception (which includes all 5 senses *touch, smell, vision, hearing, taste*) you cannot physically see. Yet a dual-being can shift his perception => It's astrally active without being able to perceive it's (astral) surroundings => You could kill a physically seeing shifter without it noticing any of the danger or harm.
Errata need there: True dual-beings should be able to perceive both planes simoutlaniously just as in previous editions-
As for the projecting mage that manifests: He'd be astrally active without being astrally active ... Nice contradiction.
Solution: Get rid of that "astral perception in reverse" and the "extending of senses into the physical world" (since you correctly stated that while astrally perceiving you still can see the physical world with astral perception) ...
And to reinstall the barrier between planes, remove that part about being subject to mana-based effects on the physical plane while manifesting ...
| QUOTE (Cochise @ Jul 4 2006, 08:30 AM) |
| The question is: Provided that Manifestation really was something like astral perception in the reverse (ignoring some limiting factors that come right after the sentence that says so),.... |
The problem is with ignoring those limits is that the limit of not being able to target Physical spells implies that you in fact do not have a real presense on the Physical plane. Ergo physical sight is in no way assured.
My understanding of it is that it remains a mental only connection with living creatures.
P.S. If Street Magic doesn't cover in more detail I think it is a candidate for the FAQ to help people understand it.
that "astral perception in reverse" was surely one of the lesser good ideas of the author(s).
that "extending senses to the physical plane" could still be kept. but maybe it has to explained a little better. one could (just a proposion) say that the hearing senses are more more linked to the physical plane, because with the (solely) psychic connection to the people around, you can understand them clearly now (otherwise sounds are blurred, according to RAW).
but yes, some sort of FAQ (or even better, an official errata) cleaning up that "mess" would be great.
(and i know: "so much to be done, so little time!" but well, hope is always a good thing
)
that "extending senses to the physical plane" could still be kept. but maybe it has to explained a little better. one could (just a proposion) say that the hearing senses are more more linked to the physical plane, because with the (solely) psychic connection to the people around, you can understand them clearly now (otherwise sounds are blurred, according to RAW).
but yes, some sort of FAQ (or even better, an official errata) cleaning up that "mess" would be great.
(and i know: "so much to be done, so little time!" but well, hope is always a good thing
)
| QUOTE (Aaron) | ||
Strike that; reverse it. |
Oops! That's what happens when I post near screaming kids.
Fixed it.
| QUOTE (Brahm) | ||
The problem is with ignoring those limits is that the limit of not being able to target Physical spells implies that you in fact do not have a real presense on the Physical plane. Ergo physical sight is in no way assured. |
Yet it isn't totally out of the way.
For spellcasting you need two things: LOS and being on the right plane. Despite what Synner said, a manifesting mage is not dual natured (this is due to some of the limitations that come along with manifestation) thus he couldn't meet the requirements even if manifestation were to provide some sort of physical sight (still leaving the problems with no simultanious physical vision along with active astral perception).
| QUOTE |
| My understanding of it is that it remains a mental only connection with living creatures. |
Mine as well ... I'm a traditionlist there ... I even go so far to say that even with a link to living creatures the barrier between planes should make it impossible to affect either side with spells => A manifesting mage should not be subject to mana-based effects on the physical plane, just as physical beings are unaffected by mana-based effects on the astral (mana-based effects that are dual are a different can of worms)
| QUOTE |
| P.S. If Street Magic doesn't cover in more detail I think it is a candidate for the FAQ to help people understand it. |
Errata is my vote there ...
Um ... folks? Maybe I'm weird or something, but I find the rules on page 184 to be quite clear. "Extending of the senses into the physical plane" does seem to suggest that the senses are extended into the physical plane (actually it does, but it's hard to diagram sentences and perform semantic analysis in plaintext). That'd be senses in the plural. It mentions that one can interact with the physical plane (with limitations that are given), and says one can freely communicate with those in physical space. It seems to me that it is like reverse astral perception, with the added caveat that there is no physical component involved.
I'm missing the ambiguity.
I'm missing the ambiguity.
The question is what senses? A projecting character only has a psychic sense, as he left his eyes, ears, etc, with his body...
So here's the most important question, and maybe someone more polite and more sober can E-mail info@shadowrunrpg.com and find out: Can a materializing magician cast spells at physical targets, if all sense are present when doing so?
[Edit]: Sobriety be damned, I asked whoever's watching info@ right now. Stay tuned for official rulings!
[Edit]: Sobriety be damned, I asked whoever's watching info@ right now. Stay tuned for official rulings!
If a wizard were to find a way to materialize while astrally projecting he could cast, because he would be present on the plane. Usually astrally projecting wizards manifest, which does not make them present, and does not allow for casting on the physical. Check pg 182 of your core book for full details on manifestation.
| QUOTE (Geekkake) |
| So here's the most important question, and maybe someone more polite and more sober can E-mail info@shadowrunrpg.com and find out: Can a materializing magician cast spells at physical targets, if all sense are present when doing so? |
We're not talking materialization here
And the RAW alreday state that a manifested mage cannot sling spells on physical targets (but with that mana-based effects affecting him, it could [depending on what you consider a mana-based effect] work the other way round *inconsistancy ftw*) or otherwise physically interact. He explicitly doesn't have have a physical body ... So where would physical senses come from? That's the contradiction right there within manifestation rules ...
If mages find out how to materialize, they will most definitely be able to cast spells on physical targets (because then they'd be dual beings just like materialized spirits), but would also be subject to physical attacks ...
| QUOTE (Cochise) |
| (but with that mana-based effects affecting him, it could [depending on what you consider a mana-based effect] work the other way round *inconsistancy ftw*) |
What are you considering as "it." If you mean that it couldbe read that he can cast mana spells on physical targets that's wrong. If it's something else then please forgive my poor reading comprehension.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||
What are you considering as "it." If you mean that it couldbe read that he can cast mana spells on physical targets that's wrong. If it's something else then please forgive my poor reading comprehension. |
I'm saying that the RAW do not allow a manifesting mage to cast spells on physical targets, however manifested mages are explicitly subject to "mana-based effects" that exist on the physical plane or are created there.
The problem is that "mana-based effects" aren't clearly defined anywhere in the rules. But if you consider a mana-based combat spell as such a "mana-based effect" that leads to the following: A purely physically present mage can cast spells against a manifesting mage but the other way round doesn't work ... Inconsistant and due to the fact that a manifested mage isn't dual natured even a breach of plane seperation ...
"Mana-based effects" are spells or critter powers with the M type. Think of it as the manifested mage sticking just enough of himself onto the physical plane to givet he enemy caster lineof sight. The mana spells can then jump through the manifested image into the astral form. The reverse doesn't work because there isn't enough of the mage present to give line of effect to the enemy's astral form.
Moral of the story: don't manifest near a hostile being capable of producing mana based effets.
Moral of the story: don't manifest near a hostile being capable of producing mana based effets.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| "Mana-based effects" are spells or critter powers with the M type. |
That's your definition
Show me a RAW quote and I'll accept it ... for the time being ...
| QUOTE |
| Think of it as the manifested mage sticking just enough of himself onto the physical plane to givet he enemy caster lineof sight. |
That would imply that he also sticks just enough out to do the same in the other direction ...
| QUOTE |
| The mana spells can then jump through the manifested image into the astral form. |
"Jumping spells" ... The days of grounding have gone and I hope it stays that way (doesn't matter that you're referencing the opposite direction)
| QUOTE |
| The reverse doesn't work because there isn't enough of the mage present to give line of effect to the enemy's astral form. |
And that doesn't work out since the only requirements for spellcasting are:
1. being on the same plane
2. having LOS ...
=> valid target ...
So if the mage is present enough to be on the same plane in order to count as valid target he's also present enough on that plane to cast spells himself.
| QUOTE |
| Moral of the story: don't manifest near a hostile being capable of producing mana based effets. |
To me the moral still is: Better make an Errata on both the part about extending senses (thus ending the debate on reading via manifestation) and the mana-based effects affecting a manifesting mage (in order to keep planes seperated) or allow him to cast spells as well (that would be less favoured by me) ...
Mana-based effects: check pg. 195 and 286.
The rest: the rules are clear on what can and cannot happen with manifested mages. Explain them or ignore them however you feel is best. Erratta is not necessary, at least not for the second part.
Where are you seeing that you can't read from the Astral? It says that physical objects have blurred features and indistinct sound. If the text were small enought hat might stop you reading, but it doesn't seem to stop all reading.
I tried doing a search for "read" in the astral world sections and didn't see anything. A global search for read showed 234 hits, so I didn't dig through them all.
The manifesting section seems fairly straightforward to me. You put your senses onto the physical plane. If you were only putting your astral senses there it would be pointless because you'd still see everything exactly the same except you'd be using the real world's lighting instead of that from the astral.
If you need a clarification, why not send the question to FanPro? I don't think any nonofficial answer given here will satisfy you, and that's the only way to get an official one. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. If so, let me know what they say.
The rest: the rules are clear on what can and cannot happen with manifested mages. Explain them or ignore them however you feel is best. Erratta is not necessary, at least not for the second part.
Where are you seeing that you can't read from the Astral? It says that physical objects have blurred features and indistinct sound. If the text were small enought hat might stop you reading, but it doesn't seem to stop all reading.
I tried doing a search for "read" in the astral world sections and didn't see anything. A global search for read showed 234 hits, so I didn't dig through them all.
The manifesting section seems fairly straightforward to me. You put your senses onto the physical plane. If you were only putting your astral senses there it would be pointless because you'd still see everything exactly the same except you'd be using the real world's lighting instead of that from the astral.
If you need a clarification, why not send the question to FanPro? I don't think any nonofficial answer given here will satisfy you, and that's the only way to get an official one. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. If so, let me know what they say.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Mana-based effects: check pg. 195 and 286. |
Sorry ... neither on p. 195 nor page 286 did I find definitions for "mana-based effects" ... All I could find were "mana spells" and "mana powers" ... Playing on semantics is part of the job
| QUOTE |
| The rest: the rules are clear on what can and cannot happen with manifested mages. |
No they aren't ... or can you give the definite answer to the question concerning physical vision?
| QUOTE |
| Explain them or ignore them however you feel is best. |
That doesn't solve the problem
| QUOTE |
| Erratta is not necessary, at least not for the second part. |
In order to have a consistant and streamlined ruleset (one of the major goals of SR4, that is most definitely necessary, since this is creating a non-streamlined, non-constistant exception concerning how spell casting works.
| QUOTE |
| Where are you seeing that you can't read from the Astral? |
Let's say that I'm all for keeping that little gimmick that lasted for 3 Editions.
| QUOTE |
| It says that physical objects have blurred features and indistinct sound. |
and on top of that, they are grey and lifelsse and have grey lacklsuter shadows rather than auras. So it's gray in gray ...
| QUOTE |
| If the text were small enought hat might stop you reading, but it doesn't seem to stop all reading. |
Lack of contrast will keep you from reading most everything. And that's the part where even with ...
| QUOTE |
| I tried doing a search for "read" in the astral world sections and didn't see anything. A global search for read showed 234 hits, so I didn't dig through them all. |
... the lack of such an explicit reference in SR4 the "old way" comes into play. Colours and contrast are things that are attributed towards living or magical entities.
| QUOTE |
| The manifesting section seems fairly straightforward to me. You put your senses onto the physical plane. |
Explain how you can extend something that already is an extension of what you're extending to.
Then continue to resolve the contradiction of physical perception without a physical body (explicit) and other physical interactions (explicit as well). "It's magic" won't work there as an argument, since physical senses aren't magic
| QUOTE |
| If you were only putting your astral senses there it would be pointless because you'd still see everything exactly the same except you'd be using the real world's lighting instead of that from the astral. |
That's pretty much how it worked in previous editions and there still are those parts in manifestation rules that heavily restrict or even contradict the part about "extending senses onto the physical plane" ... That's the reason why I'd like to see an Errata on that in the first place ...
| QUOTE |
| If you need a clarification, why not send the question to FanPro? |
I do not need a clarification (neither from shadowrunfaq@srrpg.com nor regeln@shadowrun.de). I do know what those rules say. I do know what they don't say. I even know where they cause problems. Additionally I do know that at least the german rules guy himself would like to see an Errata on both issues ... and to make things "worse": I once was that german rules guy myself ...
| QUOTE |
| I don't think any nonofficial answer given here will satisfy you, |
I guess that you missed the point of what I'm saying. My personal satisfaction with answers here or from "official" side will not change my POV on what's wrong with the section concerning manifestation in terms of game mechanics and metaphysics of the game universe. And there are similar problems within the sections concerning dual beings ...
| QUOTE |
| and that's the only way to get an official one. |
So it's still not a question of getting an official answer, since I can happily live with that inconsistancy (despite its drastic change of metaphysics in comparision to previous editions) or simply houserule it.
| QUOTE |
| Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. If so, let me know what they say. |
Subsequently I won't be able to give you said official answer (at least not one from the US-branch of Fanpro) nor do I want to give you one ...
Ah, so you're ignoring the definitions given because they don't use the word you're looking for, are holding on to old rules that are no longer in SR4, and won't even be bothered to ask the designers what they meant (and perhaps by that question trigger erratta or a FAQ entry).
I reckon that means we're done here.
I reckon that means we're done here.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Ah, so you're ignoring the definitions given because they don't use the word you're looking for, |
A definition without reference to the particular words is no definition
| QUOTE |
| are holding on to old rules that are no longer in SR4, |
Are they really gone? So far I do see possible and viable interpretations in both ways. Yet another reason to get an Errata rather than just FAQ ...
| QUOTE |
| and won't even be bothered to ask the designers what they meant (and perhaps by that question trigger erratta or a FAQ entry). |
The part about the german rules guy could have told you something
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| I reckon that means we're done here. |
Most definitely
I still think that one should look beyond what is written and think about what was intended for the manifesting rules.
It seems clear to me that it was meant to be a means by which astrally projecting magicians could communicate with mundane allies. I don't think there is any shift in the perception of the magician, nor should there be. The magician is making himself visible and audible on the material plane for the purpose of passing on information to the mundanes around him.
Trying to get it to do anything else is IMHO twinky as hell. Of course, you're all free to read the rules any way you like.
It seems clear to me that it was meant to be a means by which astrally projecting magicians could communicate with mundane allies. I don't think there is any shift in the perception of the magician, nor should there be. The magician is making himself visible and audible on the material plane for the purpose of passing on information to the mundanes around him.
Trying to get it to do anything else is IMHO twinky as hell. Of course, you're all free to read the rules any way you like.
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