stevebugge
Jul 10 2006, 11:01 PM
Lots of time on Dumpshock is devoted to how bad life is for Runners, Criminals, SINless, and Squatters. Summarized as if you live in a cardboard box under a bridge you're alright.
But how about the Average Guy with a SIN, a job, and a family. How do you treat those guys?
How about mid level management?
Basically how bad do you make life for the Legitimate Citizen?
Tanka
Jul 10 2006, 11:09 PM
They get rights, more than the SINless. The Star doesn't detain them unnecessarily, the Corps offer more gainful employment...
Then there's the downsides: 40+ hour work weeks, every week, every year gets tedious. Sure, your income is stable, but what's that say about your social and love lives?
They get caught in a rut, and if something breaks that rut, they tend to stay broken or go crazy (Art, I'm looking at you).
stevebugge
Jul 10 2006, 11:19 PM
Sort of in addition to the above questions would be how do you have the average guy at varying social strata react to Runners, the Star, Corps, etc. Sure the higher up the social ladder they are the less they want to stick it to the man and the more they either are the man or at least identify with and maybe have ambitions to be the man someday. Of course this is relative, just look at good old Art Dankwalther for someone who had a lot and still wanted to stick it to the man (who he perceived as Richard Villiers), but just how helpful are they? Will they go out of their way to report that suspicious looking car to the Star? Will they say something to corp security if they see an out of place cleaning crew? Or are they more likely to completely mind their own business or even try to ignore the "little people" in the office and the "bums" on the streets?
James McMurray
Jul 10 2006, 11:38 PM
Generally they lead a pleasant, if not outstanding, life if they tow the line.
Larger amounts of cowtowing can get you up the ladder to more pay and more hours if that's what you want.
Above a certain level, when you're just starting to peak into the higher echelons of the corporate world you'll find yourself the target of political backstabbing, and will have to do some of your own to progress.
At levels higher than that you may even find yourself the target of shadowrummers, or hiring them yourself. Note: not all targets are assissination attempts, most are not.
When you reach the top you'll be inconstant need of bodygaurds and high levels of matrix security. Daily routines will have to be broken up and your daily planner becomes a Red-10 document.
Backgammon
Jul 11 2006, 03:18 AM
Kanada Ten did some absolutely terrific write ups that capture the feel of Joe Citizen in the 6th world, in
this thread.
SL James
Jul 11 2006, 03:33 AM
| QUOTE (Tanka) |
| They get rights, more than the SINless. The Star doesn't detain them unnecessarily |
... as often.
Kagetenshi
Jul 11 2006, 03:48 AM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Generally they lead a pleasant, if not outstanding, life if they tow the line. |
What, they're fishermen now?
(The phrase you're looking for is "toe the line". Nothing personal, just one of my many language-related pet peeves.)
~J
FanGirl
Jul 11 2006, 04:06 AM
My favorite language pet peeve sayings, spoilered for your convenience.
[ Spoiler ]
"Your stupid"? My stupid what?
Your throws of ecstasy send me into throes of amusement.
Never enter your PIN number on an ATM machine. You could get the HIV virus.
You can defuse a bomb, but diffusing it might be a bad idea.
If you really did have baited breath, you would smell rather fishy.
Thru is only a word if your referring to getting a hamburger in your car.
Rouge is a color. A rogue isn't.
Per se means of itself. Per say is only how you pronounce it.
Fire is fiery. Burn all misspellings.
You should definitely spell definitely definitely.
A lot is two words. Allot means to distribute.
If you had a D, you wouldn't deserve congratulations.
Unfortunately, with the decline of grammar and spelling lessons, these errors are only going to be more common in the SR world. Remember, folks: beware the homonyms.
mfb
Jul 11 2006, 04:25 AM
after seeing the hysteria and weirdness that has infected the US since 9/11, i have to say i think most average people are afraid pretty much all the time. if you asked one if he were afraid, he'd probably say no; so would someone if you asked them today. but that's because fear is the status quo. i was out of the States when 9/11 happened, and when i returned, it felt like i was in yet another foreign country. people are absolutely terrified by an event that claimed less than 3,000 lives. i'm not downplaying the seriousness of that event, but consider how much worse SR's history is. think about Chicago, think about the Night of Rage, think about Denver, think about the brushfire wars that have raged across North America, VITAS, the Arcology, the Crashes, the Ring of Fire... the world of SR is a never-ending stream of catastrophes that make 9/11--an event that caused a sea change in the thought processes of at least one nation--look like a kid blowing off his hand with a firecracker.
SL James
Jul 11 2006, 06:03 AM
Yeah. Comparing death tolls in SR with Real Life is pretty much going to set things pretty stark. The Sears Tower bombing killed approximately 8 times the number of people as were killed on 9/11, and nearly ruined Chicago (whereas, to be perfectly honest, 9/11 just inconvenienced part of New York). Of the 100,000 people in the Arcology when it shut down, there were 1,600 or so survivors according to SSG or one of the SOTA books. 98,000 people. Dead. In only 16 months. Boston got nuked during the Crash so badly that the effect was apparently indescribable (so far). VITAS killed off 1/4 of the world population in a few years, and VITAS 2 killed 10%, and both those viruses never completely went away.
And it was never retconned that, AFAIK, NAGNA has two pretty shocking numbers: 1) 1/3 of the U.S. population died because of VITAS, and 2) In 2050 there was an act of terrorism in the UCAS every 12 hours. SOTA64 didn't alleviate those concerns when it suggested that WMD terrorism is common enough that local PDs (i.e., The Star) deals with them on a regular basis.
And I doubt most people live in arcologies, which means that they actually have to leave their houses to commute. And every time they commute that have to deal with all of that and gangs, go-gangs, and god only knows what else on a daily basis. Yeah. Good times.
Beaumis
Jul 11 2006, 08:52 AM
Which by the way is a very good reason why people who do live in arcologies or other corporate controlled enviroments are loyal subjects of their employer, are all for the death penalty, armed corp security and basically consider shadowrunners to be the enemy. Those criminals are trying to destroy the corp that keeps them save and secure every day after all.
In my opinion the average joe will be much to terrified of an actual runner to mess with him in any way, but once you enter the realm of arcology level employees they are more afraid of losing their job than not to inform security.
Most likely, most "normal" people simply wont give a damn tho. "Who cares if this guy is a criminal, as long as he doesnt shoot me I sure as hell wont force him to by getting in his way."
SL James
Jul 11 2006, 09:02 AM
Sure, in theory. But look at Seattle (just to pick a random major SR city). There is a whopping ONE functional Arcology in 2064 (Aztechnology Pyramid), and even that doesn't really have enough housing for all the people who work there. Moreover, why would a AAA or AA bother with subsidizing so much of the lifestyles of employees of their subsidiaries? What about the other 50% or so who don't work for the AAAs or AAs, only As or smaller corps? They can't afford the costs of an arcology (A couple space stations, apparently in the case of Trans-Orbital and H-TB). There's a reason why Bellevue and Renton and Auburn and Tacoma and Snohomish and Everett exist and are filled with hundreds of thousands of people in rental units and actually honest-to-god houses. Arcology life may be neat, but in most places, it just doesn't exist in the numbers necessary for it to be an option for a majority (or even supermajority, etc. up to virtually everyone) of SINners in Shadowrun.
Which goes back to the case of... Thousands of people commute to work every day (some telecommute. Bully for them.) in Seattle alone, and just getting to work involves a higher-than-RL stastical probability of encountering life-threatening dangers just trying to get from Point A to B every day.
Witness
Jul 11 2006, 09:24 AM
I've a sneaking suspicion that there is even less freedom of the press in the SR world, and the media is probably even worse at making the everyday Joe feel scared of the world (and just imagine what kind of subliminal emotions they could sneak into simsense productions) because of course then the everyday Joe is so much more supportive of the protection and order offered by corporations, the government et al.
It's not so much that Joe's daily life is more dangerous (it may or may not be), but I'd bet he believes it is more dangerous. And that would go for pretty much any ordinary Joe anywhere.
SL James
Jul 11 2006, 09:27 AM
| QUOTE (Witness) |
I've a sneaking suspicion that there is even less freedom of the press in the SR world, and the media is probably even worse at making the everyday Joe feel scared of the world (and just imagine what kind of subliminal emotions they could sneak into simsense productions) because of course then the everyday Joe is so much more supportive of the protection and order offered by corporations, the government et al.
|
Well... Yeah. That's a given. As is the media scaring the everliving crap out of him.
hyzmarca
Jul 11 2006, 09:36 AM
2070 is a nice time to live if you have a sufficient amount of money. You can buy a nice place in the middle of nowhere, get a comlink and a satellite uplink, maybe a few implants and come cosmetic surgery, and peacefully raise awakened alpacas. No one is going to bother you and all you need is enough incoming funds for food, utilities, and enterainment.
If you have too little money you'll find yourself eating out of trashcans, not unlike today.
If you have too much money someone will eventually Thor Shot you if you aren't kidnapped for ransom.
Witness
Jul 11 2006, 09:42 AM
Until some Johnson decides that awakened alpaca wool is valuable telesma and worth sending a team after!
Yes, I suppose you could go and live somewhere beautiful and secluded, just like any of us could today. But what stops us now? Not wanting to leave friends and family? Fear of the unknown? Lack of funds?
I can well imagine Average Joe dreams of this. But does he ever actually do it? Can he? After all, he's probably got debts he can't settle, responsibilities he can't abandon, and a corporation that wants to keep him exactly where he is.
SL James
Jul 11 2006, 02:50 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| 2070 is a nice time to live if you have a sufficient amount of money. You can buy a nice place in the middle of nowhere, get a comlink and a satellite uplink, maybe a few implants and come cosmetic surgery, and peacefully raise awakened alpacas. No one is going to bother you and all you need is enough incoming funds for food, utilities, and enterainment. |
Well, that's the whole problem. People seem to assume that they're going to make a better life for themselves in the SR-verse.
BrianL03
Jul 11 2006, 02:56 PM
Wait, what? Boston got nuked in SR4? O_o
... Oooookay.
Back to the topic at hand, though, I play my average Joe and Jane Citizen as obedient, slightly brain-washed members of society, either blissfully ignorant of the teeming masses of poor just outside their walled-off neighborhood, or desperate enough in their rat race of a job to do anything to get ahead and have fewer people to directly compete against. Defectors are rare, most people are grateful to the corp that is providing them their job, unless of course, you're in Chicago in which case you're more grateful that the local Mafia/Yakuza/Triad bosses aren't breaking your legs.
Whatever the case is, they realize they don't have power, and latch on longingly to whoever is currently giving them some semblance of a secure life.
Witness
Jul 11 2006, 03:20 PM
| QUOTE (BrianL03) |
| Wait, what? Boston got nuked in SR4? O_o |
No it got EMPed. (Using an orichalcum-enhanced nuke).
BrianL03
Jul 11 2006, 03:33 PM
| QUOTE (Witness) |
| QUOTE (BrianL03 @ Jul 11 2006, 09:56 AM) | | Wait, what? Boston got nuked in SR4? O_o |
No it got EMPed. (Using an orichalcum-enhanced nuke).
|
I guess that's a little more acceptable, if that's the term we can use for that kind of thing.
"Orichalcum-enhanced nuke?" Sheesh. I'll happily keep my wireless-less world anyday ^^
I guess, though, that too would be an example of the average citizen not having much in the way of power. They aren't able to stop the destructive events of the world. Granted, shadowrunners don't often either, but they at least contribute towards the implementation or elimination of such ideas.
Platinum
Jul 11 2006, 04:04 PM
Why EMP'ed .... should have used a neutron bomb.... just clears out the organics.... then you just move in with everything furnished. I am surpised that hasn't happened to the barrens.
James McMurray
Jul 11 2006, 04:07 PM
Does SR have neutron bombs? I don't remember them anywhere, but I've got a memory like a steel sieve.
Witness
Jul 11 2006, 04:23 PM
| QUOTE (Platinum) |
| Why EMP'ed .... |
It was part of the Ex Pacis / Winternight plan to crash the Matrix 1.0, crash the Novatech IPO, and Deus within it.
Dog
Jul 11 2006, 04:31 PM
On the matter of careers, I think that average people, especially those working for the megacorps, don't have a lot of choice in their life path. I imagine that aptitude testing occurs early in life and a person is vocationally trained --although they'd still call it education-- for a specific job. They are really only suited to one type of job, and not taught enough to do any real critical thinking. "No, of course I never took a history class; I'm a programmer for Godssake!" People who are educationally well rounded and creative thinkers are rare.
What passes for current events is really just celebrity gossip. People will have heated debates around the water cooler about what colour some hollywood starlet is painting her new baby's bedroom, but yawn and walk away if someone mentions genocide in Tsimshian.
Branding is super-important. People will not try something they don't recognize. Coke vs. Pepsi is considered a serious choice to make. Advertising is integrated into everything they wear and all their entertainment, so much that they don't even think of it as being added on or interrupting.
On the other hand, I think fringe societies are more common, they're just kept segregated. But we're talking about mainstream folks here.
Most people have replaced all notion of recreation with entertainment. Sports aren't something you go out and play; they're something you watch.
In short, the average person is subjected to their life, not really an active participant in it.
Having said that, I always allow for this: Almost everyone knows that something is not right. They all have the potential to break out of the mold. Instinctively, they are not happy and know they can be more. It's just that their instincts are repressed by a lifetime of conditioning.
Hey, gotta have something positive, right?
knasser
Jul 11 2006, 06:25 PM
Well I would like to add something to what Dog just said, but he just expressed almost everything I think on the subject (right down to everyone has the potential to break out).
On the fear subject, all I can say is that's in Authority's interest to keep people afraid. Look at what's happened in the US since 9/11 politically with things like the PATRIOT act, wire-tapping and Homeland security. You don't need a real threat to keep people submissive. They just need to be scared. I think the average corp worker, especially those who live in corporate enclaves, are for the most part pretty terrified by the outside world. It's definitely true in my experience that those with the least exposure to risk are the ones who fear it most. I lived in a pretty rough area for many years, where there was a chance of getting beaten up or stabbed walking around there. But who is it that is gripped by fear of the "youth of today" or illegal immigrants or violent crime? It seems to be the middle-classes who live tucked away somewhere safe. In my old neighbourhood, people were sometimes scared of specific threats - that so and so's boyfriend was going to come round and sort them out or whatever. But the general non-specific terror is mainly the preview of those who are safe.
Dog
Jul 11 2006, 06:39 PM
You just gave me some insight on something that I've been trying to figure out for a while.
Why do Shadowrunners keep coming up in the corp media? I'd always thought that Big Brother would want to keep the existence and activities of shadowrunners on the downlow. But now it makes sense. To the media, shadowrunners are the extremist terrorists of their day. In other words, a convenient thing to keep people afraid of.
Witness
Jul 11 2006, 08:55 PM
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| On the fear subject, all I can say is that's in Authority's interest to keep people afraid. Look at what's happened in the US since 9/11 politically with things like the PATRIOT act, wire-tapping and Homeland security. You don't need a real threat to keep people submissive. They just need to be scared. I think the average corp worker, especially those who live in corporate enclaves, are for the most part pretty terrified by the outside world. It's definitely true in my experience that those with the least exposure to risk are the ones who fear it most. I lived in a pretty rough area for many years, where there was a chance of getting beaten up or stabbed walking around there. But who is it that is gripped by fear of the "youth of today" or illegal immigrants or violent crime? It seems to be the middle-classes who live tucked away somewhere safe. In my old neighbourhood, people were sometimes scared of specific threats - that so and so's boyfriend was going to come round and sort them out or whatever. But the general non-specific terror is mainly the preview of those who are safe. |
Yes absolutely. Although it's a balancing act. They can't be too scared.
I too have lived in very rough areas, and got used to it. Since I've grown up and moved on to more comfortable surroundings I find it weird how intimidating I now find areas that I used to revel in. Have to keep reminding myself what's really going on and how it's me that's changed, not the 'shadows'.
James McMurray
Jul 11 2006, 09:06 PM
I'm in the same situation. When I was growing up in Little Mexico walking down the streets at 3am to get a soda from the store didn't bother me at all. If there was someone walking towards me I'd either step aside as they stepped aside, or completely move out of the way depending on who it was and how many there were. Now I'd hesitate to walk down those same streets at night.
I think for me it comes down to what I've got to lose. Back then I didn't care. If I got in a fight it was a good chance to let off some steam. If I got hurt it was no big deal, and might actually make a cool story. Because I thought I had nothing to lose I was supremely confident.
Nowadays if I get hurt I might miss work. If I miss too much work I lose my job or drop down to below the temporary disability level. If that happens cable TV goes awway first, followed shortly by one of the cars, several of my favorite things being sold, and finally if all else fails the house goes away and I end up back in a neighborhood similar to the one I got out of, but with a wife and kids to worry about.
I don't think the actual danger level has grown appreciably since I was growing up, but the consequences of that danger have skyrocketed, so if I want a soda at 3am I get in the car or tell myself to shut up and go to bed because I've got to be at work in the morning.
stevebugge
Jul 11 2006, 09:48 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
I'm in the same situation. When I was growing up in Little Mexico walking down the streets at 3am to get a soda from the store didn't bother me at all. If there was someone walking towards me I'd either step aside as they stepped aside, or completely move out of the way depending on who it was and how many there were. Now I'd hesitate to walk down those same streets at night.
I think for me it comes down to what I've got to lose. Back then I didn't care. If I got in a fight it was a good chance to let off some steam. If I got hurt it was no big deal, and might actually make a cool story. Because I thought I had nothing to lose I was supremely confident.
Nowadays if I get hurt I might miss work. If I miss too much work I lose my job or drop down to below the temporary disability level. If that happens cable TV goes awway first, followed shortly by one of the cars, several of my favorite things being sold, and finally if all else fails the house goes away and I end up back in a neighborhood similar to the one I got out of, but with a wife and kids to worry about.
I don't think the actual danger level has grown appreciably since I was growing up, but the consequences of that danger have skyrocketed, so if I want a soda at 3am I get in the car or tell myself to shut up and go to bed because I've got to be at work in the morning. |
I think this sums up a lot of peoples experience fairly well, maybe starting from different points but basically as life goes on you accumulate responsibilities, dependents, and stuff and your risk/reward tolerance adjusts accordingly. In game terms this may show up in the attitudes, diligence, and preparedness of the common citizen and may differ markedly depending on the area/populace in question. In AA-A rated neighborhoods for example the average guy might be a bit more wary of strangers and a bit more likely to tip off the Star than a guy in a B-C neighborhood who may operate under the belief that if I ignore it it will ignore me, and in a D or lower someone with very little to lose may just confront you to see how much you really got. Of course at the top level paranoid security is a way of life. In our game the media is even less objective than it is now, every AAA corp has a media division, many own several trid networks which are frequently strongly slanted towards the interests of the parent company. Shadowrunners are portrayed in a variety of ways, but rarely in a sympathetic way. People who live outside the Corporate system, that is they are not employees of the coprs or work in a local business that helps maintain and support the corps, are portrayed as dangerous, fringe, criminal, addicts, or abnormal. The corporate media always emphasizes that they chose that lifestyle and does it's best to cover stories that highlght that (BTL addict shoots up a Stuffer Shack, lead story) and gloss over stories that suggest that the Corporate system is resonsible (Corp factory closes and relocates destroying a local economy, doesn't make the news) unless it really hits a rival specifically (Azzie land grab violently displaces Urban Poor! Of course ONLY Aztechnology would do that sort of thing, and it will be taken up by the Corporate Court).
BrianL03
Jul 11 2006, 09:49 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
I think for me it comes down to what I've got to lose. Back then I didn't care. If I got in a fight it was a good chance to let off some steam. If I got hurt it was no big deal, and might actually make a cool story. Because I thought I had nothing to lose I was supremely confident.
Nowadays if I get hurt I might miss work. If I miss too much work I lose my job or drop down to below the temporary disability level. If that happens cable TV goes awway first, followed shortly by one of the cars, several of my favorite things being sold, and finally if all else fails the house goes away and I end up back in a neighborhood similar to the one I got out of, but with a wife and kids to worry about.
I don't think the actual danger level has grown appreciably since I was growing up, but the consequences of that danger have skyrocketed, so if I want a soda at 3am I get in the car or tell myself to shut up and go to bed because I've got to be at work in the morning. |
James' comment makes perfect sense, especially in the context of my family and I going down to Comiskey (or The Cell as they call it now) the other day via public transportation, and my consideration of how to get back up to where we had left the car. We would be coming back from a night game, 10p or so, and I was worried about the Red Line, adjacent to Comiskey, being full when we got to the platform. Now, there's a Green Line stop about four blocks further east and north. The Green Line's not in a horrible location, it's actually on the IIT campus, but the place isn't as brightly lit and is a block or two from some housing projects.
Now, I would have jumped on the Green Line in a heartbeat if the Red Line was full and I was by myself (heck, there might even be some other Sox fans going home via the Green as well), but with my younger sister, brother, and mom with me, I told them flat out we were going to grab the Red Line, if there was a group or not. I was comfortable with myself potentially getting attacked, but didn't want the rest of my family on my conscience. Almost Bruce Wayne-like, in a way.
Witness
Jul 11 2006, 11:19 PM
Yeah what James says sounds right.. except.. it doesn't really ring true for me. I don't really have substantially 'more to lose' than I used to. My career has reset after going back to academia. My girlfriend's the houseowner. No family, yet. No it seems to me that it's mere distance that has made the difference. I'm no longer really exposed to the seamy side of life (that I actually used to embrace), so now my view of it has become tainted by the views of others- mainly the media but also friends and family. Seems like their fears and paranoia have infected me, in a way, and I no longer have the personal experience to innoculate myself. Weird.