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Dog
When I'm the GM, I am prone to rewarding players for coolness. An original idea, doing something in character (even if it means bad news), being funny, that kind of stuff. With some players, this means low karma yields per game because they are careful and meticulous about "getting the job done."

My current GM... I can't figure out what he rewards. I think he just predetermines what we'll get based on how challenging the run he made up is.

Other GMs I know will reward based on "goodness" or something like it. Good moral choices lead to karma rewards.

What about you guys? GM's, what do you like to reward? Players, what do you think you should be rewarded for?
MacMoney
It depends pretty much on how much the players get done and the level of danger they are in (even if they don't perceive it or through sheer luck make through it without a hitch). I usually reward good RPGing with a point or two and exceptional ideas with a point (or two if really mind-blowing, but I don't think that has ever happened).

Although I appreciate it, I usually don't reward funny stuff with anything and I certainly don't reward doing the morally right thing.
Vaevictis
Usually, there's a base karma award for each objective in a run; by meeting certain objectives (some of which are optional or hidden), the karma value of a run will increase.

There's also a "standard" set of bonus karma points available:
1. Being entertaining for the group.
2. Acts of heroism.
3. Major contributions towards completing the run -- ideas, knowing just what to do at the right moment, etc, etc.
4. Good roleplaying.

There are others. Usually, the "bonus points" max out at 2-3 per run, and the runs themselves range from 3-6.

Recently, it's been almost limited to 5 though, sadly. Very harsh on us mage characters, especially as the runs are getting exponentially harder with lots of cash... which is of limited use to mages frown.gif
James McMurray
Pretty much the same as everything else. Runs will have objectives, and each objective is worth X karma. Survivial is worth X karma, depending on the danger level. The remaining karma award conditions are listed in the book. No book handy, but I believe Vaevictis's list covers it all except for right place right time.
Platinum
What no one else offers extra karma for sex? eek.gif
Jrayjoker
I have always felt the "by the book" awards were about 50% too low. Our current GM is apparently of the same mindset, because we are getting about 10 Karma per completed run (which includes the bonus points, where applicable).
James McMurray
I forgot to mention that we also award 1 karma for bringing food or drinks.

Jrayjoker: depending on the length of the run 10 karma might be just right. There are official printed adventures that award that much, and sometimes even more.
Kagetenshi
I award karma based on what I feel the players have achieved. If they slog their way through a nightmare run, I'll award them a fair bit of karma. If they complete the run easily due to some simple path that I'd overlooked that somehow still didn't require cleverness in either planning or execution, they'll get a little karma. If they complete the run easily due to some path that catches me completely out of the blue and is brilliant, they will swim in karma swimming pools.

A bonus point is awarded here and there for saying or doing the right thing at exactly the right time, whether for dramatic, comedic, or tactical effect.

~J
Jrayjoker
Well, The runs we do are probably a bit less intricate and backstabby than the published modules, so ten seems a bit high if you are basing the comparison on the "by the book" awards. Most of our runs are the result of the GM having a loose outline and letting it play out.

Of course we are an amalgam of old RPGers (non-SR), old RPGers (SR almost exclusively), new RPGers (non-SR), and one total noob playing SR4 and still trying to figure out the rules, so any Karma is a gift at this point.
stevebugge
I find that when GM'ing I give the standard 1 for surviving, 1 for completing each major objective (usually this ends up being 1 point but sometimes 2 or 3), and 1-3 based on difficulty. I give out bonus points for good RP, making the group laugh, and particularly brilliant plans. I also will deduct from the award for Rules Lawyering, metagaming, and incessant whining. We typically are only able to play 3 and 1/2 to 4 hours a session so wasting time is a big no-no for our group, however converesly if an indvidual run lasts more than two sessions on it's own I'll toss in some extra karma to make up for taking a long time. I find that 4-7 is about typical for most runs.
Jrayjoker
Yeah, that sounds like it is pretty by the book, except for the penalties. That would never fly with my group as our RP sessions tend to be a lot of BSing with intermittant flashes of role playing.
Grinder
There are other ways to spend a role playing evening? biggrin.gif
Sahandrian
If I penalized my players for incessant whining, the ninja adept and rigger would never advance at all...
stevebugge
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Yeah, that sounds like it is pretty by the book, except for the penalties. That would never fly with my group as our RP sessions tend to be a lot of BSing with intermittant flashes of role playing.

That happens with our group on occasion and isn't always a bad thing and I wouldn't penalize my group for that, especially if we all had a good time. Just when we aren't really on task and that's the reasom a game spills over it isn't going to be eligible for extra karma for a long mission either. I don't typically penalize players for wasting time (unless it's in game and should have in game consequences like blowing a job deadline). The three things I penalize for Metagaming (where out of character knowledge of rules or setting that a character wouldn't reasonably know is used in determing a characters actions), Rules Lawyering (Arguing with the GM over a rules interpretation, especially if it's in support of a munchkinous character or action) or incessant whining (particularly over this challenge doesn't play to my characters strengths) I'll penalize for. To be honest I merely had to annouce that these were things I would penalize for and it pretty much stopped, I have yet to actually penalize the group in several years of playing.
Lindt
I usualy do it be how well they do. Completation point style.

You alive? 1 (If it dosent kill you...)
Everyone else? 1 (There is no I in team)
Mission Acomplished per outline? 2 (Did you get the McGuffin?)

Usually another 2-3 points assessed on how they went about things, worked contacts, roleplayed well, made good choices and followed them thru, ect ect.
Telion
typically I use the system as a guide. I have a hard time awarding some of their extras and tend to only use them occassionally, if they make a plan good for them, did it work good for them. I usually scale the adventure karma based on the difficulty of the run. the more the players worked for it the more they learned and the more karma, its a sliding scale.

I typically give karma as the following,
1 they sat there - at least they showed up to the session right?
2-3 they did some work
4-5 completed the run of moderate difficulty
6-7 it was intense
8-10 for those runs that should have been 2 seperate adventures, or you killed a dragon.

other categories I use are, is it online x1.5 or x2 for karma due to the slow nature of the game, also do the same for cred etc...

I suppose the biggest problem I have is deciding what really constitutes a good plan, etc.. good <insert here>

do I penalize players for being disruptive, yeah, they'll earn a -1 karma award for annoying the gm, or slowing the game down, for online games I deduct a karma for every other missed post, but will make it up if the gm misses a post, fairs fair and the game must go on.

also if I feel people have had fun I might boost the scale, if they haven't then its time for me to look at what happened. also even if the adventures get harder, I don't see myself giving out more karma even if the money is greater, sams have a larger bill in order to upgrade, and besides your more elite so you should get that extra pay. karma is awarded on difficulty to you, not to a beginning character.
Wounded Ronin
I used to try and give karma as outlined in the SR3 BBB but this lead to really high karma awards because of all the categories which would result in a +1 karma award. Now, I simply try to keep awards as low as I possibly can.
Thorn Black
I get my players to justify their karma award at the end of a game. They get the out of the book ones, 1 for survival etc. but then I ask. What did you do smart? Whad did your character learn? etc. They tend to nominate other characters as well as their own with
"don't forget you did X, that was pretty brave!"

and then I have all of my players vote for another player for a bonus player vote. It seems to work out at about 5 to 10 karma a run and I am pretty happy with that.
Calvin Hobbes
Our karma rules are located at http://kwgames.pbwiki.com/karma .

In a really intense game, a character can earn about 10 karma, but we average 5-7.

On the other hand, we use different rules for training times, so our group tends to have a large karma stockpile and very little time to train so we can spend it.
Moon-Hawk
I give awards on a team basis, so everyone gets the same amount, with one caveat. I generally give out 2-3 extra points for RPing, whichever character contribured the most, etc., but the players vote on who gets those awards.
Wounded Ronin
See, I used to give out ~10 karma per adventure but that rapidly spiraled into large karma pools that made the game too easy IMO.
Jrayjoker
I suppose if you are able to play every week, and finish a thread of your advenure every week, and award Karma every week, you are going to end up with some major players in a very short amount of time. But if you are limited by how often you can meet and how much you can reasonably complete in any gaming session then higher awards will make it feel like there is progress being made.
Jrayjoker
For the characters, not necessarily the game.
Crossfire
Hey Dog! You should tell us how you award karma in your games... I wanna how I can earn more nyahnyah.gif

When I GM, I usually give team karma and individual karma.

For team karma, I basically follow the standard procedure (like everyone else said). However, I put the emphasis on TEAM. So I tend to be very generous if EVERYONE participated equally (if it was possible) and had fun. I especially encourage (and reward) players trying to involve other players in the game (like a new player, riggers or deckers). I think some archetypes have a harder time sometimes to get an equal share of "time" (read: fun).

For individual karma, I tend to be very generous, putting the emphasis on roleplay and game involvement. I believe you can roleplay even during an action scene or during a fight (maybe I played Exalted a lil bit too much lol). Creativity and integrity to the game are of the utmost importance. I also reward a player's contributions to the game: taking notes, bringing munchies at a game, taking care of initiative during combat and make sure to keep a good pace (harder than it looks...), cleaning the map after the end, reminding the other players to stay "in character", etc.)

Also, I tend to give random karma like during Xmas, someone's birthday or everyone with a clean character sheet after a couple runs (harder than it looks also lol).

I probably give an average of 5 or 6 points per game session and the players usually have a fast progression. However, I use a different system for karma pool that goes like this (so characters won't have a karma pool of 10 after 2 months...). I need to point out that I'm tough on skill improvement (so you want to improve your unarmed combat from 7 to 8? You've heard of a kung fu master who could teach you but...)

karma points* Karma Pool*
0 -------------------------- 1
10 ------------------------ 2
30 ------------------------ 3
60 ------------------------ 4
100 ---------------------- 5
150 ---------------------- 6
210 ---------------------- 7
etc.

* I use the same for humans and metas

Peace!

Crossfire
Beaumis
When I DM, the biggest chunk of karma I tend to give is for people staying in character when it's hard to. For instance when a player ignores the tactical decisions made at the table because his character is too distraced in meele combat to hear them he qualifies for boni. Or when a player ignores all his knowledge about shadowrun mechanics and still does what seems logical to his character despite the fact he "knows" it will screw up his life.

I rarely give Karma for combat even though particular smart tactics can yield some. But I feel surviving and/or winning the average gunfight is more of a requirement to get the job done than something to give Karma for. (Kinda like school, beeing there alone doesnt yield any grades. Its required to obtain the knowledge to earn grades)
I usually determine some Karma for the run's objectives and some more for sidequests. (I tend to build in mini stories in order to keep the game interesting and to give my NPCs a breath of life instead of just statistics. Naturally this means players have more options. The amounts usually reflects how big the risk is to finish one of these.

a quick example. I once let them run against Ares. A simple prototype theft of some new rifle. (Which later turned out to be the HVAR) During the preparations I dropped the rumor that there is a power struggle between the two leading scientist. (I tend to drop rumors in batches, so there is some difficulty in figuring out whats true and whats not.) One of the players followed up and figured out that whoever would get this final problem fixed first would be up for promotion. He also found out that one was much closer than the other. So when they broke in and stole they didnt just steal it but also left a copy of the better scientist's work with the worse one. Then they left a trumped up trail to the better scientist ensuring the worse one would get the promotion. Since this one knew he had to thank the runners for this he made sure the inquiry went quickly and not too thoroughly so noone would find out where his edge came from, effectivly helping the runners stay in the shadows.

Stuff like that yields bonus karma in my book.
I also award coolness Karma and Fun Karma along with the usuall stuff thats in the books.
Dog
I am happy to announce that Crossfire earned an extra point of karma from me for some cleverness yesterday.

As to other rewards: Make me laugh. Rescue a buddy. Pusue your character's goals. Be a hero, or an anti-hero. Oh, and don't be so loud playing dice while Charlie and I wade through decking rules. biggrin.gif
Crossfire
Sorry Dog, my bad wink.gif We won't play dice anymore when another character is decking... We'll just have to endure those "fun times" (makes me think of a new thread...)

Sleeper should have been rewarded a point of karma too (I don't remember if you gave him one). For those who weren't there (i.e. all of you lol), the player thought of listening to a fallen security guard's cell phone's voice mail to imitate the guard's voice with his social adept. It was pretty clever in my opinion and helped us a lot later during the run...

Peace! (and looking forward playing a pirate in your next campaign!)

Crossfire

P.S. Fight global warming, become pirates... nyahnyah.gif
Kagetenshi
My question is, why aren't you playing while the other player is decking? Was there really nothing else you could do until they'd done their job? If not, could they really not start their work until you'd run out of things to do that didn't depend on them?

~J
eidolon
I do by the book plus a bit for character story advancement. I also tend to reward bits of fantastic role playing. Typically, I give out anywhere from 4-7 for a "normal" day of play. More for an extended session or one in which the players excel. Usually, I try to give blanket karma with no individual awards, but sometimes they're warranted.

I personally feel like the book recommendations give too much karma when you play fairly often (say a long weekly session), so if I'm playing with a regular weekly group, sometimes I'll lower it a bit. It depends on the players and whether I think doing so will result in more griping and whining than I can tolerate. smile.gif
Crossfire
Well, you see, we all entered a facility and the decker started doing his thing with the GM (inside the building, right next to us). The other players (including me) couldn't really do anything else in the game because we had to wait for the GM and roleplaying "in character" was out of question as we had to be unnoticed... Feel free to continue this discussion on the new thread to bring interesting ideas!

Peace!

Crossfire
Kagetenshi
The discussion in the new thread isn't the one I'm trying to have, though. What about what the decker was doing precluded your characters from doing things (was he opening the door you were standing in front of? Deactivating the security cameras you were just about to come into view of?), and why did he wait to start it until you were inside the facility waiting for whatever he and only he could do to happen?

~J
James McMurray
IF it mirrors the situations I've seen:

QUOTE
What about what the decker was doing precluded your characters from doing things (was he opening the door you were standing in front of? Deactivating the security cameras you were just about to come into view of?),


A combination of the above, plus doing his best to grab as much control of the security system as possible.

QUOTE
why did he wait to start it until you were inside the facility waiting for whatever he and only he could do to happen?


Because any security system worth it's salt will not be hackable from outside.
Kagetenshi
Two responses there:

1) Crossfire specified that the decker was in the building next door.

2) So somehow it's possible to reach the jackpoint without having to avoid any security systems, but no further?

~J
James McMurray
1) I missed that, but it doesn't really change anything. The security system is just hardwired across several buildings instead of one.

2) Where was it said that no security systems were encountered prior to the decker "doing his thing"?
eidolon
Do you really gain anything from nitpicking the way someone else runs their game?

I can see your tack if he had said "I don't like the way this happened, can you give me some advice on changing it?" But he didn't. He's not the GM in this situation, either.

(Not just trying to be an ass, it's just that threads that take off in the "you did that wrong" direction when it hasn't been requested get really lame. Unless someone asks, it's a fair bet that they're okay with how their game is going.)
Dog
Time to help derail my own thread...

1. Crossfire's first language is not english. He meant to say that the decker was inside the same building next to the other characters. It was one of those situations where they had to deck from a specific facility in order to incriminate certain people once the activities were investigated.

2. The jackpoint was the goal. They broke into the place so that they could access the jackpoint. (And bypassed the relevant security stuff on the way in.)

3. Crossfire and co. were being nice. They know I hate GMing decking runs and that I don't know the rules well, so they were trying not to do anything to distract me. Just sucked that we were all in a little room and they were getting bored.
Platinum
We all suck at the start ... but as you get better, it is an element of the game that is really worth learning. It adds realism, complexity, and a difficulty factor. Another thing that I forgot is keep the system hard but simple. If your decker has to crawl through 2-3 subsystems it adds time. The point of getting in onsite is to avoid subsystems. Read the idiots guide to the matrix, and keep your charts handy. It tells you what all the rolls are.

Good on ya, for integrating decking.
Crossfire
I'm sorry about the error, I added a coma in hope it'll be clearer... (not sure lol)

Dog, I think you did a good job with that matrix run. We (the other players) were lacking some "player's etiquette" there. That's why I decided to start the new thread. And thanks for backing me up, I know English is not my first language nyahnyah.gif .

Thanks for those who were kind enough to move to the other thread (so we can leave Dog's karma thread alone lol).

Peace!

Martin
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Crossfire)
I'm sorry about the error, I added a coma in hope it'll be clearer... (not sure lol)

That comma makes quite a bit of difference smile.gif

QUOTE (James McMurray)
2) Where was it said that no security systems were encountered prior to the decker "doing his thing"?

It wasn't, but barring the jackpoint being the goal (which, as it turns out, it was) that would mean that the rest of the team would be able to keep doing their thing while the decker worked.

QUOTE (Dog)
3. Crossfire and co. were being nice. They know I hate GMing decking runs and that I don't know the rules well, so they were trying not to do anything to distract me. Just sucked that we were all in a little room and they were getting bored.

Understood. With a little experience it'll all come much more easily, as will avoiding the lulls--just remember to throw something in for the other players at the same time (be it shoring up defenses, talking passers-by out of going into the room, stealing stuff, or planting small thermonuclear devices). It's easy, really smile.gif

~J
James McMurray
I was picturing something along the lines of "sneak in a bit to find a jack point, then wait for the hacker to clear the electronic defenses before moving on." You certainly don't want to keep exploring while your buddy is still busy turning off the Grimtooth traps.
SL James
QUOTE (Dog @ Jul 12 2006, 03:21 AM)
What about you guys?  GM's, what do you like to reward?

Since I only game online, I usually give extra points for really good writing (and I hold the bar relatively high since it's not that hard to write something, at the very least, good).

An example for which I gave extra karma is this:

[ Spoiler ]


[ Spoiler ]


It kind of loses something out of context, but the first one especially was pretty striking to me as a GM - probably the most emotive post I've had a player write - following an act of terrorism that was, quite simply, horrific.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (James McMurray)
I forgot to mention that we also award 1 karma for bringing food or drinks.

...that's one I use as well. If someone makes dinner (meaning more than popping a frozen pizza in the oven or a couple of burritos in the nuker) they get 2 in addition to the one for bringing the food.

We also give an instant Karma for a good line or joke (puns excluded) even if it is said out of character. Mind you it has to be good and make everyone laugh, not just the GM. One of my GMs also awards a Karma for showing up before the scheduled start time (lateness is kind of an issue in our group).

As I mentioned in previous posts I also have "hidden" Karma awards for figuring out clues and solving mysteries planted throughout the campaign.
Kagetenshi
I have an almost-strict rule against giving out karma for non-game-related reasons. The only two exceptions I grant are one karma point for a birthday, a second karma point if the birthday is on a game day and you still attend the session. Other than that, what your character does is what your character does, and what you do I may thank you for profusely in the real world, but it won't make your character more experienced.

~J
SL James
The only time I gave someone 1 extra karma for humor was for a post that literally made me spray water out of my nose all over the keyboard and screen.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (SL James)
The only time I gave someone 1 extra karma for humor was for a post that literally made me spray water out of my nose all over the keyboard and screen.

...that could get spendy on keyboards.

I accidently splashed a bit of wine on my notebook keyboard one session & it went nuts for 15 min. Definitely a lightweight. since it was a Fume' Blanc I was drinking.
Platinum
you need to invest in one of these water resistant keyboard
SL James
Eh. I treat my computer like shit. It treats me like shit. We have a comfortably antagonistic relationship.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Platinum)
you need to invest in one of these water resistant keyboard

...hmmm,I think left my Japanese linguasoft at home today.
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