I'm interested in hearing a quick run-down on changes from SR3 to SR4, and I don't mean things like, "There are no more open tests."
For example:
Combat in SR* is deadlier than in SR*
Spellcasting in SR* is more [complicated, colorful, streamlined, etc.] than in SR*.
Running the matrix is more/less . . .
Hand-to-hand combat makes more/less sense . . .
And such things as these. No need to explain your answers.
And a final, bonus question: Why bother changing it from "decking" to "hacking" just because decks are no longer used? We still call it "typing" even though no one uses a typewriter anymore. There is a reason no one says "keying," even though we all use keyboards, and that reason is word inertia. Come on, get real: just because the world went wireless in the 2060s doesn't mean that everyone would suddenly refer to deckers as hackers because their equipment changed. "Decking" was a good, original, Shadowrun word. "Hacking" is silly and generic. (Yes, this latter bit is nothing but rant; please ignore.)
Full Version: Explain it like I'm stupid
Biggest change is no more variable Target numbers. Fixed values of 5,6 and Tests are measured by counting "hits" or comparing "net-hits" for Opposed Tests.
Furthermore, no more dice pools to augment tests. All Tests use Attribute+Skill and modifiers to add/remove dice from the pool instead.
More uniform rules for each area of SR like the Opposed Test for Combat is the same for Ranged/Melee/Matrix/Astral/Vehicle.
Furthermore, no more dice pools to augment tests. All Tests use Attribute+Skill and modifiers to add/remove dice from the pool instead.
More uniform rules for each area of SR like the Opposed Test for Combat is the same for Ranged/Melee/Matrix/Astral/Vehicle.
-- Combat in SR* is deadlier than in SR*
Generally it is much easier to take some damage in SR4 than it was in SR3, but somewhat harder to die. At least straight off. Because of this pistols, even holdouts, are something to show a little respect to. Grenades are also harder to soak away all the damage from.
-- Spellcasting in SR* is more [complicated, colorful, streamlined, etc.] than in SR*.
It is still the cradle of power, and as much as ever you pretty much require magic to effectively deal with magic opponents. All in all, pending the contents of Street Magic, it all amounts to roughly the same thing. But using the general die mechanism that it shares with the rest of SR4.
You'll likely notice a little less difference between Hermetics and Shamans in SR4 than SR3 during play, specifically around spirits. Or you might notice a lot of difference or next to no difference between Hermetics, Shamans, and other traditions. SR4 leaves more on the players and GM now to decide and describe things surrounding spirits and summoning since the differences are more based on colour than mechanics.
-- Running the matrix is more/less . . .
More often used. Less like filing out your income tax forms using Castle Wolfenstein.
-- Hand-to-hand combat makes more/less sense . . .
In practice roughly about the same as it ever did.
EDIT Somehow missed the bonus question. I still refer to it as decking when someone is operating in VR for anything other than driving a vehicle. It just feels right to me and doesn't really cause any confusion with the other players even though nearly everyone else in the group never played Shadowrun before 4th and the one that did hadn't played since before 2nd edition came out. If everyone else in the group is a longtime 'runner it should be even more natural.
Generally it is much easier to take some damage in SR4 than it was in SR3, but somewhat harder to die. At least straight off. Because of this pistols, even holdouts, are something to show a little respect to. Grenades are also harder to soak away all the damage from.
-- Spellcasting in SR* is more [complicated, colorful, streamlined, etc.] than in SR*.
It is still the cradle of power, and as much as ever you pretty much require magic to effectively deal with magic opponents. All in all, pending the contents of Street Magic, it all amounts to roughly the same thing. But using the general die mechanism that it shares with the rest of SR4.
You'll likely notice a little less difference between Hermetics and Shamans in SR4 than SR3 during play, specifically around spirits. Or you might notice a lot of difference or next to no difference between Hermetics, Shamans, and other traditions. SR4 leaves more on the players and GM now to decide and describe things surrounding spirits and summoning since the differences are more based on colour than mechanics.
-- Running the matrix is more/less . . .
More often used. Less like filing out your income tax forms using Castle Wolfenstein.
-- Hand-to-hand combat makes more/less sense . . .
In practice roughly about the same as it ever did.
EDIT Somehow missed the bonus question. I still refer to it as decking when someone is operating in VR for anything other than driving a vehicle. It just feels right to me and doesn't really cause any confusion with the other players even though nearly everyone else in the group never played Shadowrun before 4th and the one that did hadn't played since before 2nd edition came out. If everyone else in the group is a longtime 'runner it should be even more natural.
| QUOTE (Union Jane) |
| And a final, bonus question: Why bother changing it from "decking" to "hacking" just because decks are no longer used? We still call it "typing" even though no one uses a typewriter anymore. There is a reason no one says "keying," even though we all use keyboards, and that reason is word inertia. Come on, get real: just because the world went wireless in the 2060s doesn't mean that everyone would suddenly refer to deckers as hackers because their equipment changed. "Decking" was a good, original, Shadowrun word. "Hacking" is silly and generic. (Yes, this latter bit is nothing but rant; please ignore.) |
Because "technomancing" sounds even dumber.
I find that the system is fairly easy, straightforward, and universally consistant. The only time that it gets complex and convoluted is when there are vagaries in the rules, or if there were cut and paste from previous versions which don't make sense in the new one.
The KISS explanation:
It's simpler, and playing a matrix oriented character is viable.
"Simpler", of course, can mean good or bad, depending on how you like things.
It's simpler, and playing a matrix oriented character is viable.
"Simpler", of course, can mean good or bad, depending on how you like things.
| QUOTE (Union Jane) |
| And a final, bonus question: Why bother changing it from "decking" to "hacking" just because decks are no longer used? We still call it "typing" even though no one uses a typewriter anymore. There is a reason no one says "keying," even though we all use keyboards, and that reason is word inertia. Come on, get real: just because the world went wireless in the 2060s doesn't mean that everyone would suddenly refer to deckers as hackers because their equipment changed. "Decking" was a good, original, Shadowrun word. "Hacking" is silly and generic. (Yes, this latter bit is nothing but rant; please ignore.) |
Well it is called Hacking now so similar to your statement about typewriters (which also have keyboards btw), why would they call it decking later on? That word inertia would actually be in support of hacking being used.
I don't like decking and decker, it sounded really silly to me, and it still sounds silly actually. I mean now we don't say that guy is a great computerer, even though he is very proficient with a computer.
I think the switch was their attempt to say, "This time we've updated the Matrix and made it better. It's different this time. No, really. We mean it this time. Like, for real, it's different and better, not like the last five times we said that. This time it's different. And better."
| QUOTE (Union Jane) |
| Combat in SR* is deadlier than in SR* |
IME, in SR3, it just wasn't all that common for PCs to be lightly injured. This is entirely subjective, of course. But, it usually seemed like an attack would come in and it would either do very little or nothing OR it would obliterate the target. So, it was fairly uncommon to see somebody continuing to do stuff at some level of injury.
In SR4, it's much harder to completely avoid injury. So, it's fairly common for characters to be operating at some level of injury. A random person with a hold out probably won't kill you, but he'll probably hit you and you'll probably be at a die penalty because of it.
| QUOTE |
| Spellcasting in SR* is more [complicated, colorful, streamlined, etc.] than in SR*. |
Honestly, spellcasting seems to be very similar between the two systems, at least in terms of balance. Some groups will complain that mages are all powerful, other groups will complain that they're dramatically underpowered. (In both systems!)
In terms of color/flavor, sorcery is pretty similar. Depending upon character design, drain can be worse in SR4, but it isn't always. The biggest change is probably that in SR4, you don't have to worry about learning a spell at a particular force. Instead, you choose force, up to twice your magic attribute, at the time of casting. That can mean that when you need to lay it all on the line to cast an extremely powerful spell, it's possible to do so at risk of physical damage.
In general, having Magic as a purchaseable attribute has also made magic a bit more common. It's fairly straightforward, now, to have an awakened character with just a little bit of magic at creation.
| QUOTE |
| Running the matrix is more/less . . . |
It's definitely more pervasive than it was in SR3. And, that's really the point of AR and wireless. Hackers are more integral to the game, and more essential to a team.
The game's also aware of search engines now. Pretty much anybody can grab their commlink and start googling away to begin a legwork search. That way, when you get around to checking with your contacts, you've already got the basics of a situation down.
| QUOTE |
| Hand-to-hand combat makes more/less sense . . . |
I never cared for the idea of a character dealing HtH damage when it wasn't their turn. That aspect has been removed. (Though, it remains possible to attack multiple characters at one time.) So, to me at least, that aspect makes a lot more sense. However, beyond that, the systems aren't dramatically different.
| QUOTE |
| And such things as these. No need to explain your answers. |
- Weapons now have the ability to decrease the effectiveness of armor.
- Everybody can either summon a spirit for a short term service or bind it to lock term service.
- Different types of spirits have different functions for each tradition.
- Otaku, now technomancers, don't lose the ability to interact with the matrix as they age.
- Edges and Flaws were renamed Qualities and became an integral part of the game system.
- Contacts are rated for how well they like you and how good they are at finding you information and/or gear.
- Condition monitors are variable in size, dependent upon physical and mental attributes.
- Drone rigging became a bit more straightforward.
| QUOTE |
| Why bother changing it from "decking" to "hacking" |
I'm of the opinion that this was pretty much a concession to new players. If you're sitting around with somebody who's never heard of shadowrun and you say "hacker" there isn't any further explanation necessary. If you say "decker" that's fairly meaningless.
| QUOTE (Union Jane) |
| I'm interested in hearing a quick run-down on changes from SR3 to SR4, and I don't mean things like, "There are no more open tests." For example: Combat in SR* is deadlier than in SR* Spellcasting in SR* is more [complicated, colorful, streamlined, etc.] than in SR*. Running the matrix is more/less . . . Hand-to-hand combat makes more/less sense . . . And such things as these. No need to explain your answers. And a final, bonus question: Why bother changing it from "decking" to "hacking" just because decks are no longer used? We still call it "typing" even though no one uses a typewriter anymore. There is a reason no one says "keying," even though we all use keyboards, and that reason is word inertia. Come on, get real: just because the world went wireless in the 2060s doesn't mean that everyone would suddenly refer to deckers as hackers because their equipment changed. "Decking" was a good, original, Shadowrun word. "Hacking" is silly and generic. (Yes, this latter bit is nothing but rant; please ignore.) |
I think I have to disagree with the fundamental premise that one system is better than the other. They are simply different systems, though I'm finding I prefer 4 to 3 generally.
Economics: The Gear Pricelist in SR4 is much more reasonable than SR3. The highend gear is reachable, thew low end is cheap enough to be disposable and runs no longer have to pay excessive amounts just to facilitate character advancement.
Magic: One wacky system traded for another
Ranged Combat: Light and Hold-out pistols are actually capable of doing some damage in SR4. Light injuries are more common, however in comparison some higher end weapons seem a bit underpowered.
Matrix: It's more inclusive in SR4, non-matrix specialists can get some basic use out of it, Matrix specialists no-longer are connected by a cord to single location. In general fewer total tests need to be made.
Hand to Hand Combat: Just different not better or worse.
Fewer different types of test and fixed target numbers generally have made the game easier to learn and much easier for a GM to wing it when there sin't a specified test written in to the rules.
Hey, thanks to all for the many contributions. This has proven to be a good summary of game-play changes, rather than just a list of rule changes.
Cheers,
UJ
Cheers,
UJ
Combat: On the one hand, SR3 tended to go from "total soak" to "total smear" with very little room in between. SR4 is a bit more granular about it. However, it's harder to actually kill characters outright in SR4, particularily since armor can shift damage to the stun track.
Spellcasting: The good news here is that the rules are more constant. The bad news is that they're a whole lot more generic, and deliberately so. You won't find detailed descriptions of the Hermetic and Shamanic traditions; they're just two examples of what you can make with the build-a-tradition rules. My playtests have found the new rules to be bland and easily exploitable, and not a whole lot easier to use in practice.
The Matrix: The matrix is more pervasive, but it's now harder to do a "slash decker": decker/sam, decker/face, etc; a good decker requires too many high skills to be useful at anything else. A decker/rigger is marginally easier, thanks in part to the rules merge and the removal of the hideous Maneuver score; but the vehicle rules are still a horrendous mess, reducing the overall benefit.
Hand to Hand: Is about the same. They've removed the infinite counterattack issue that bugged people in 3rd ed, but that's about it.
"Decking" to "Hacking": because they decided to go from a futuristic Gibsonian worldview to a modern Bluetooth worldview. They actually scrolled back the futurism of the game, in order to implement modern technology.
Other rants: in general, the game is a lot more flavorless than ever before. They tried to emulate, instead of innovate; what's more, they tried to emulate several generic systems (the character creation systems looks suspiciously like GURPS) plus the New World of Darkness (the core dice mechanic is essentially the same, only using d6's instead of d10's.)
Spellcasting: The good news here is that the rules are more constant. The bad news is that they're a whole lot more generic, and deliberately so. You won't find detailed descriptions of the Hermetic and Shamanic traditions; they're just two examples of what you can make with the build-a-tradition rules. My playtests have found the new rules to be bland and easily exploitable, and not a whole lot easier to use in practice.
The Matrix: The matrix is more pervasive, but it's now harder to do a "slash decker": decker/sam, decker/face, etc; a good decker requires too many high skills to be useful at anything else. A decker/rigger is marginally easier, thanks in part to the rules merge and the removal of the hideous Maneuver score; but the vehicle rules are still a horrendous mess, reducing the overall benefit.
Hand to Hand: Is about the same. They've removed the infinite counterattack issue that bugged people in 3rd ed, but that's about it.
"Decking" to "Hacking": because they decided to go from a futuristic Gibsonian worldview to a modern Bluetooth worldview. They actually scrolled back the futurism of the game, in order to implement modern technology.
Other rants: in general, the game is a lot more flavorless than ever before. They tried to emulate, instead of innovate; what's more, they tried to emulate several generic systems (the character creation systems looks suspiciously like GURPS) plus the New World of Darkness (the core dice mechanic is essentially the same, only using d6's instead of d10's.)
The Matrix: The matrix is more pervasive, but it's now harder to do a "slash decker": decker/sam, decker/face, etc; a good decker requires too many high skills to be useful at anything else.
I disagree. One of my players does exactly that. Hacker/Sam/Street Doc/Rigger. Believe it or not. A very useful 400BP character.
I disagree. One of my players does exactly that. Hacker/Sam/Street Doc/Rigger. Believe it or not. A very useful 400BP character.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| "Decking" to "Hacking": because they decided to go from a futuristic Gibsonian worldview to a modern Bluetooth worldview. They actually scrolled back the futurism of the game, in order to implement modern technology. |
I think of it more that they took the same leap Gibson did, for the 21st century. Augmented Reality and the wireless Matrix is just as unreal as the old stuff, it's simply unreal using updated technology referances.
Though in my current group, we still refer to any particularly outlandish bit of hacking as "haxorzing teh Gibson."
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| The Matrix: The matrix is more pervasive, but it's now harder to do a "slash decker": decker/sam, decker/face, etc; a good decker requires too many high skills to be useful at anything else. |
I'll have to disagree. I'm not sure how you can say that given you can make any char a Hacker in SR4 with zero essence cost and the same effectiveness of going full cyber. Mage/Hacker, Adept/Hacker, Mystic Adept/Hacker, Anything/Hacker wasn't really that good in prior versions given the cyber requirement alone.
| QUOTE (Conskill @ Jul 27 2006, 11:37 AM) |
| I think of it more that they took the same leap Gibson did, for the 21st century. Augmented Reality and the wireless Matrix is just as unreal as the old stuff, it's simply unreal using updated technology referances. Though in my current group, we still refer to any particularly outlandish bit of hacking as "haxorzing teh Gibson." |
I didn't know ethernet and fiber optics were considered obsolete. There's nothing futuristic about wi-fi, and hardlines go about 100X faster in all cases. To say nothing of signal decay. Are you telling me there are gigantic radio dishes for intercontinental communications, instead of cables?
That's why I'm still of the opinion that a hardline decker would trounce a wi-fi hacker. I don't have any stats for that, but hardline speed so far as I know always beats wi-fi in terms of bandwidth.
Perhaps Unwired will have rules that give a hacker a bit of an edge if he has a hardwired connection.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Other rants: in general, the game is a lot more flavorless than ever before. They tried to emulate, instead of innovate; what's more, they tried to emulate several generic systems (the character creation systems looks suspiciously like GURPS) plus the New World of Darkness (the core dice mechanic is essentially the same, only using d6's instead of d10's.) |
This has been debunked elsewhere ya big silly head.
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| I didn't know ethernet and fiber optics were considered obsolete. There's nothing futuristic about wi-fi, and hardlines go about 100X faster in all cases. To say nothing of signal decay. Are you telling me there are gigantic radio dishes for intercontinental communications, instead of cables? |
I chose the term technology reference instead of technology carefully. I do not particularly care about the real state of computer science, since it has precious little to do with our fantasy game of elf hackers in 2070. The Matrix has always been completely unreal and it continues to be so.
However, the popular concept of technology and the appearance of the Internet have changed. I appreciate that they integrated these when they rewrote the system, just as I prefer modern science-fiction writers use "space ship" instead of "rocket ship to the MOON!" even if both accurately reflect modern space travel.
| QUOTE (the dunner) |
| I'm of the opinion that this was pretty much a concession to new players. |
That's funny. I'm of the opinion that SR4 is pretty much a concession to new players.
| QUOTE (Conskill @ Jul 27 2006, 01:00 PM) |
| I chose the term technology reference instead of technology carefully. I do not particularly care about the real state of computer science, since it has precious little to do with our fantasy game of elf hackers in 2070. The Matrix has always been completely unreal and it continues to be so. |
Oh, of course. Which is why we had to update SR4 to make it concurrent with real world advances.
Then why change the Matrix at all to begin with? Sorry, you can't use "concurrence with real world technology" as a reason for an update and then turn around and say "The Matrix doesn't have to make sense to your puny meat brain".
(Edit note: Edited back in my original comment. I thought it was a bit snarky in tone, but eidolon already commented on it. Damn, I was too slow.)
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| Oh, of course. Which is why we had to update SR4 to make it concurrent with real world advances. |
One of the least necessary and more tiresome aspects of the new edition, IMO.
Why would a fantasy, fictional, nonexistant world have to suddenly fit more closely with our current, unconnected timeline? So that little Jimmy wouldn't hurt himself thinking? Do people that enjoy this change and think it necessary also have a hard time with reading Star Wars material because we don't have the force?
| QUOTE (Adam Selene @ Jul 27 2006, 11:56 AM) |
| Then why change the Matrix at all to begin with? Sorry, you can't use "concurrence with real world technology" as a reason for an update and then turn around and say "The Matrix doesn't have to make sense to your puny meat brain". |
Unreal != "The Matrix doesn't make sense." It means simply that the Matrix is...well, unreal. Not a real technology. I apologize, but I don't know of a clearer word to use for this concept.
The efficiency of wired transfer versus wireless versus Emperor Ming Death Rays is irrelevant to the artistic approach to the Matrix because it is not a real technology and does not need to abide by the real parameters of computer science. Good thing it doesn’t, either, because hacking as the game knows it simply wouldn't exist if it did.
(Edited to continue, since I initially stopped too abruptly:)
My original point is that this is "updated" not in terms of technology but the perception of technology. We live in a different world now then when Gibson started writing, where instead of a fantastical other realm of Cyberspace we're instead facing the continual merging of the Internet and connectivity into even the most minute parts of our lives.
The 21st century brings us a new technological dystopia, which could encounter different horrors and wonders than what we thought it would bring us in the 80s. The technology itself and its precision doesn't matter to me, it's the nightmare of where it can take us that does. As far as that goes, Gibson's vision of the future is becoming outdated, even if his technology can still be accurate.
Your reference all the way back to Gibson shows that you, like others, think that SR is still in need of those parent works to be playable/believable. I think it has grown to sustain itself, and needs not make silly attempts to send out tendrils to other works and realities in order to make "sense". The tech curve in SR is/was the tech curve in SR, not the RL tech curve, or the William Gibson tech curve. IMO, this is/was how it should be.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| I think it has grown to sustain itself |
Except that it was pretty clear that Shadowrun was NOT sustaining itself.
- The pen and paper gaming industry as a whole has shrunk dramatically since Shadowrun's heyday in the '90s.
- The Shadowrun Duels line failed miserably.
- The Shadowrun Novels line was cancelled. Wizkids'/Roc's attempt to revive it has already been cancelled.
- SR3 books were a rare sight in gaming shops and unseen in regular book stores.
Love it or hate it -- SR4 has revitalized the game.
- Ticket sales for Shadowrun events at Origins/GenCon are more than 100% increased over what they were last year.
- There have been at least 3 printings of the SR4 core rules in less than a year.
- 11 months after release, the SR4 PDF is still #15 in sales on Drivethrurpg.com. Only one other book of that age is listed on their top 15 list, and that one is d20 and has Monte Cook's name on it.
I'm not saying that any one aspect of SR4 is responsible for that change. However, it's pretty clear that FanPro has done something right.
| QUOTE |
Except that it was pretty clear that Shadowrun was NOT sustaining itself. * The pen and paper gaming industry as a whole has shrunk dramatically since Shadowrun's heyday in the '90s. * The Shadowrun Duels line failed miserably. * The Shadowrun Novels line was cancelled. Wizkids'/Roc's attempt to revive it has already been cancelled. * SR3 books were a rare sight in gaming shops and unseen in regular book stores. Love it or hate it -- SR4 has revitalized the game. * Ticket sales for Shadowrun events at Origins/GenCon are more than 100% increased over what they were last year. * There have been at least 3 printings of the SR4 core rules in less than a year. * 11 months after release, the SR4 PDF is still #15 in sales on Drivethrurpg.com. Only one other book of that age is listed on their top 15 list, and that one is d20 and has Monte Cook's name on it. I'm not saying that any one aspect of SR4 is responsible for that change. However, it's pretty clear that FanPro has done something right. |
I think your basis for comparison is a bit wacky. A new core ruleset is a bit different from just releasing a few sourcebooks a year. I think you should compare how SR3 did 12 months after its release versus how SR4 has done 12 months since its release to get any valid basis for a commercial judgement call.
On its face, any core ruleset is going to sell extremely well in comparison with a few yearly sourcebooks, which is what you're implying, that SR4 sold well compared to System Failure and whatever else came last prior to its release
Unless you can prove that this isn't simply people throwing in money to "keep up" with the series and is actively attracting new fans, I would posit that SR4 would have sold extremely well even if its changes were as modest as the SR2 -> SR3 update.
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| I think your basis for comparison is a bit wacky. A new core ruleset is a bit different from just releasing a few sourcebooks a year. I think you should compare how SR3 did 12 months after its release versus how SR4 has done 12 months since its release to get any valid basis for a commercial judgement call. |
What's wacky about a year on year sales comparison? That's how pretty much every industry measures sales performance. Industry analysts wouldn't view SR3 and SR4 as different product lines, they would just be part of the Shadowrun RPG product. The market for Leisure, Recreational, and Entertainment products is hugely competitive I would imagine most companies would call not losing market share a victory and actually increasing market share probably is cause for major celebration.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| I'm of the opinion that SR4 is pretty much a concession to new players. |
Thank the dice gods for that!
Slowly but surely the old gaurd was fading away. SR4 updates the rules to make them less insane and thereby easier to learn and use. And it updated the world view to make it more understandable to today's gamers, who have never even heard of Gibson and wondered why wireless networks don't exist in 2070.
SR4 has revitalized a game that would have died. For some the revitalization required too much change, and they may never play the new edition. That's agrowing pang with any new edition, and the sales figures have shown that their loss is not a terrible thing. It would have been nice to be able to appease everyone with the new edition, but that's impossible, so FanPro went this route.
| QUOTE (eidolon @ Jul 27 2006, 01:44 PM) | ||
That's funny. I'm of the opinion that SR4 is pretty much a concession to new players. |
... and all the people that had tried Shadowrun and walked away in frustration, and people that had played for some time but eventually succumbed to the frustrations and trailed away, and all the people that had been warned away because of the rules.
It short all the people that liked or were interested in basic premise of the setting but weren't willing to put up with the dated and arcane state of the rules.
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| I think you should compare how SR3 did 12 months after its release versus how SR4 has done 12 months since its release to get any valid basis for a commercial judgement call. |
It is my understanding that SR4 has already sold more than SR3 did in the first full year after SR3's release, and that is before you include the PDF sales.
Can they hold a sizable portion of those new customers? Well if they ever get around to releasing the core supplement books they'll find out. How long that info takes to get to us is another matter.
| QUOTE ("Cain") |
| Combat: On the one hand, SR3 tended to go from "total soak" to "total smear" with very little room in between. SR4 is a bit more granular about it. However, it's harder to actually kill characters outright in SR4, particularily since armor can shift damage to the stun track. |
no harder then in SR3, just takes longer.
first you knock the person out with stun, and then you keep shooting until said stun (now overflowing into physical) have allso maxed out the physical track. presto, one dead enemy...
problem is doing that while others thats still standing are shooting at you, thats why you drop everyone using stun damage first
btw people, check up on cain's past posts about SR4
| QUOTE ("adam serlene") |
| That's why I'm still of the opinion that a hardline decker would trounce a wi-fi hacker. I don't have any stats for that, but hardline speed so far as I know always beats wi-fi in terms of bandwidth. |
bandwidth isnt everything when it comes to hacking. if you wanted real life hacking, forget AR or 3D VR. they would all be looking at some CLI window, and if anything is low bandwidth, its that. its been used since the days of modems...
allso, given that all downloads happen in the space of a combat turn (or less that if you start your download on your last action if the last IP, with you having a initative of 1
) i would hazard a guess that both wired and wireless connections have hit the speed where the diffrence is marginal at best.or maybe unwired will bring some advanced rules into play to cover that aspect, who knows.
Please! No new rules until we understand the ones we've got already! AR-GH!
im with you on that one. however, unwired is likely one of the last rules books that will be released. and given the SR "curse", and that it will probably carry updated/advanced vehicle and drone rules, it will probably be one of the last books before SR5...
| QUOTE (stevebugge @ Jul 27 2006, 04:00 PM) |
| What's wacky about a year on year sales comparison? That's how pretty much every industry measures sales performance. Industry analysts wouldn't view SR3 and SR4 as different product lines, they would just be part of the Shadowrun RPG product. |
Not everybody is going to buy System Failure. Pretty much everybody (other than the holdouts) however are going to buy SR4 because you can't play anything that comes later without it. Does that make sense? I'm asserting that any upwards trend seen during the first year of SR4 sales would be curvilinear.
Comparing a trend consisting of nothing but add-on sourcebooks (SR3 was released almost 9 years ago and somehow I don't think you meant to imply that SR3 tanked) to something as revolutionary as SR4 and expecting to find any result except "SR4 outsold the sourcebooks" is academically invalid. I'm saying that if you're going to say SR4 was a shot in the arm for Shadowrun you're going to have to give me more proof than just everybody bought the new main rulebook.
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| I'm saying that if you're going to say SR4 was a shot in the arm for Shadowrun you're going to have to give me more proof than just everybody bought the new main rulebook. |
When you use "everybody" I assume this is some limited subset of everybody?
If everybody, as in every single person, had bought SR4, then I think it would be a shot in the arm for SR in general.
I think your meaning here is that you think the SR4 sales are limited to people who were currently playing SR in some version, and therefore the sales numbers are only reflective of that group continuing their dedication to SR, rather then indicative of an increase in the base of SR players from new players?
My opinion based on the sales figures, anecdotal evidence, and informal surveys is that it is quite clear there has been an increase in the total player base.
For the record, SR4 first year of sales (minus the pdfs) has been on par with SR3's (print runs have been smaller, but FanPro has gone through more of them and demand is still strong). Keep in mind that even similar sales to those SR3 had in FASA's heyday and the RPG market at the time are a Big Thing. In the current industry slump typical sales have decreased by about 40% across the board (but have been holding steady).
| QUOTE (the dunner) |
| Except that it was pretty clear that Shadowrun was NOT sustaining itself. |
Excellent use of selective quoting to show that you didn't read what I posted very well.
I said the game world had grown to support itself, and didn't need to be tied back into the "real world"; for example, it doesn't matter that our world has wireless everywhere, because the SR world wasn't our world. It was a world unto itself, and could have (should have IMO) continued to develop along its own line rather than hacking it up and reworking it to fit ours.
I see the usual whines of "rules are hard, no rules is easy and therefore better" are still around. Good for them.
SR4 is a continuity reboot masquerading as an update, and that's why I can't stand it. System Failure was a pretty blatant "Wipe the Slate clean" adventure ala the Apocalypse sourcebooks of the old World of Darkness system.
That's about the most succinct way I can put my gripes with it.
Rules-wise, I know why deckers got trashed, because everybody thinks integrating the matrix into a regular SR run is nigh-near-impossible. It's not, and there are very good solutions posited by people other than myself, but I guess some people really need to have somebody else think for them. Why riggers had to go however I don't understand.
That's about the most succinct way I can put my gripes with it.
Rules-wise, I know why deckers got trashed, because everybody thinks integrating the matrix into a regular SR run is nigh-near-impossible. It's not, and there are very good solutions posited by people other than myself, but I guess some people really need to have somebody else think for them. Why riggers had to go however I don't understand.
I see no reason why the SR world would not branch into wireless technology and portability. It may be a different flavor for SR thus far, but it's still cyberpunk. It makes room for new concepts but doesn't exclude the old. Large wired systems are still there. Corps use secure hardwire systems in SR4 too and I'm sure that quite a few Shadow networks do as well. The public has been opened up to complete and constant internet access through wireless. You have to use your imagination a little (only a little) to a get in touch with the new feel. The Matrix is still a mysterious place, but now it is a less rigid structure. Freeform.
Hint: Wireless was happening and did exist in SR3.
Then what's the big deal? Sure the whole evil AI thing is corny, but that's not really what individual game sessions are about anyway. It hardly affects you (The whole Deus-debacle, that is.)
How does SR4 really change the feel of the game? Story wise, not the rules.
How does SR4 really change the feel of the game? Story wise, not the rules.
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| SR4 is a continuity reboot masquerading as an update, and that's why I can't stand it. System Failure was a pretty blatant "Wipe the Slate clean" adventure ala the Apocalypse sourcebooks of the old World of Darkness system. That's about the most succinct way I can put my gripes with it. |
Beg to differ, setting-wise System Failure and SR4 have not wiped the setting clean nor have the (visible) changes to the setting been any more significant or sweeping than say the Corp War/Blood in the Boardroom, Year of the Comet or Dunklezahn's legacy. And definitely nothing on par with what happened to the WoD.
The setting has not been gutted and rebooted; the vast majority of the players (megacorps, crime syndicates, policlubs, political figures, even many shadowrunners) remain, some of them almost untouched, some of them changed. Their histories remain intact as do the agendas that brought them to the latest edition. The first adventure On The Run and the first sourcebook Runner Havens bear this out by touching on a number of old favorites.
Even the biggest change in the setting, the Matrix upgrade, was done fully in continuity with what came before. Ex Pacis and the Dissonance won through their intent and changed the nature of the Matrix into something more dynamic.
Did the feel of the setting change? Yes, undoubtedly. Things move on. But pick up Runner Havens and you'll find 90% of the material can be used to upgrade your 206x Seattle to 2070 without changing to SR4 rules.
| QUOTE |
| Rules-wise, I know why deckers got trashed, because everybody thinks integrating the matrix into a regular SR run is nigh-near-impossible. It's not, and there are very good solutions posited by people other than myself, but I guess some people really need to have somebody else think for them. Why riggers had to go however I don't understand. |
I fully agree that playing deckers was not half as difficult as people believed it to be. That's why I ran the original Idiot's Guide to the Matrix thread here on DSF, to debunk the myth. However, no matter how familiar with the rules the players and GM became, decking in SR3 found it extremely hard to reach the level of integration hacking does in SR4 simply by virtue of the process itself (the hacker can do a lot of his work on the fly in the field and the player can count on a streamlined mechanic with the rest of the system) - note that setting wise there is very little difference at all between SR3 and SR4 VR runs (replace hosts with nodes and its essentially the same feel, only the mechanics are different).
And its not just the integration, I know several members of the anti-SR4 crowd that despite it all think the new Matrix/hacking material is a huge step forward with regards.
Since riggers are still around, I'm going to assume that you mean "riggers having to lose their own specific ruleset" because otherwise they play pretty much the same way they did in previous iterations of Shadowrun. They're even still called riggers and they still rule their specialty. The basic tech they use may have been streamlined with general hackers (something that was happening all the way back to Rigger's Black Book 2) but anyone who's played both under SR4 knows that their speciality and skill set normally means they're a pretty different animal.
| QUOTE |
| Beg to differ, setting-wise System Failure and SR4 have not wiped the setting clean nor have the (visible) changes to the setting been any more significant or sweeping than say the Corp War/Blood in the Boardroom, Year of the Comet or Dunklezahn's legacy. And definitely nothing on par with what happened to the WoD. |
Fuchi splitting up through corporate intrigue is way different than Ares dropping Thor Shots on Proteus AG, Winternight blowing everything up, and the Matrix completely crashing. As is Dunklezahn and YOTC, and Renraku Shutdown. All these events have one thing in common: They're isolated. You don't HAVE to run the SCIRE, you don't HAVE to go jump through hoops recovering probes for corporations or fighting toxic spirits in the Yucatan, and you definitely don't have to go on a fetch-quest for one of Big D's scavenger hunt items. In System Failure, it's world altering.
Plus the fact that the entire world-altering was tied into one of the stupidest plot devices in Shadowrun: Otaku and the "Deep Resonance", just made me want to throw myself off a balcony. I mean, Ehran the Scribe/Harlequin/etc. all would have been better. The difference between Deus and Immortal Elves in terms of plot devices isn't what they are, it's how they're written. After reading Stephen Kenson's novels and then his contributions to the sourcebooks, I come to one conclusion: He's a hack. Good at fantasy. Horrible at integrating it into cyberpunk. I find myself more and more reading Nigel Findley's sourcebooks and appreciating the way they're written as compared to what was produced by Kenson etc. all.
Oh, and here's the biggest thing for me, it may be minor but it strikes me as why it's a reboot: The UV host for the Boston Stock Exchange should be impossible. After Damien Knights' nanosecond buyout they put severe restrictions on stock trading to ensure nothing that drastic would ever occur again. Now suddenly they need a UV host for split-second transactions?
| QUOTE |
| The setting has not been gutted and rebooted; the vast majority of the players (megacorps, crime syndicates, policlubs, political figures, even many shadowrunners) remain, some of them almost untouched, some of them changed. Their histories remain intact as do the agendas that brought them to the latest edition. |
The Ute? Gone. Tsimshian? Gone. Cross Applied Tech: The ONLY non-cliche megacorp is gone. Now all we have are your standard Japanese Zaibatsu, heartless American megacorps, and German masters of industry. And Aztechnology, but they're fairly unique, being state-owned (or owning the state, but honestly, what's the difference?)
Erika and Novatech merge along with Transys Neuronet to form...what? A company that's THE primary producer of information technology whose primary shareholder is Richard Villiers? Yeah, we've had that before. It was called "Fuchi".
And don't get me started on Captain Chaos disappearing and being replaced with Fastjack.
| QUOTE |
| Since riggers are still around, I'm going to assume that you mean "riggers having to lose their own specific ruleset" because otherwise they play pretty much the same way they did in previous iterations of Shadowrun. They're even still called riggers and they still rule their specialty. The basic tech they use may have been streamlined with general hackers (something that was happening all the way back to Rigger's Black Book 2) but anyone who's played both under SR4 knows that their speciality and skill set normally means they're a pretty different animal. |
Educate me, because I can only go on what I've been told. Control Pool is gone, and so are VCR's. So in other words: Anybody can rig. Which defeats the point of having a dedicated rigger. So it's not really a rigger anymore, it's just a wheelman, a job anybody can do.
Or at least that's the way I've been instructed by those who do possess the book.
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| Educate me, because I can only go on what I've been told. Control Pool is gone, and so are VCR's. So in other words: Anybody can rig. Which defeats the point of having a dedicated rigger. So it's not really a rigger anymore, it's just a wheelman, a job anybody can do. |
I can't speak about any of the rest of it, because I don't know all the history in the corporate politics like all of you do and if I did, it's still not something I care to get into, but I was panicky about riggers when it came out that they'd be getting combined with the decker ruleset before SR4 was released, being a big rigger fan myself.
Control Pool is gone. VCRs are gone, replaced by the Control Rig. The Control Rig gives you a few bonus dice when operating a vehicle in virtual reality, which is equitable with operating a vehicle as a rigger would in SR3. I've heard some confusion (not a lot, as nothing really suggests this) as to whether or not the control rig is neccessary to operate a vehicle in VR - the rules don't have anything on the lines of a spelled-out sentence: "A control rig is neccessary to operate a vehicle by virtual reality." If you houserule to make that hardware neccessary, the biggest difference becomes the cyberware only having one grade as opposed to three, and taking up a bit of essence as opposed to nearly all of it, but in this scenario, the rigger maintains their dominance over anyone else in the field of driving. Barring the scenario where someone with wired reflexes can have a higher initiative than the matrix VR initiative, but that's a whole other thread, and it's even more complicated when you've got a definite physical component as one does in a car.
Without that houserule, anyone can rig, but you'll still find that when the shit hits the fan, you don't want a wheelman with a few points in a vehicle skill - you want a dedicated rigger.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| Hint: Wireless was happening and did exist in SR3. |
True, but is wasn't ubiquitous, and that's a big difference. There was television in the 1940's, but it didn't really change the world until the 50's.
More over technically in SR3 anyone could rig as well, theoretically without so much as a datajack implant at that, via a deck and that rigging emulation software.
Not that the concept of anyone being able to try to drive a vehicle in VR is a bad thing. It is not a bad thing at all. Because Shadowrun is not suppose to be a class based RPG, right?
Not that the concept of anyone being able to try to drive a vehicle in VR is a bad thing. It is not a bad thing at all. Because Shadowrun is not suppose to be a class based RPG, right?
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| Or at least that's the way I've been instructed by those who do possess the book. |
Either they are poor readers, or you misunderstood them. Either way I suspect if that is your source of information that you likely have some serious misconceptions about SR4.
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| That's why I'm still of the opinion that a hardline decker would trounce a wi-fi hacker. I don't have any stats for that, but hardline speed so far as I know always beats wi-fi in terms of bandwidth. |
Same was true in SR3 when Matrix access was being done via cellphone or even satelite, so oddly SR4 is consistant with past Shadowrun editions in that way.
The details of the Matrix have never made technological sense given physics as we understand or even conjecture them.
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| Cross Applied Tech: The ONLY non-cliche megacorp is gone. Now all we have are your standard Japanese Zaibatsu, heartless American megacorps, and German masters of industry. And Aztechnology, but they're fairly unique, being state-owned (or owning the state, but honestly, what's the difference?) |
that's not quite accurate. Wuxing is certainly not a Japanese Zaibatsu, and Yamatetsu breaks every Japanacorp stereotype on record (including the one about being based in Japan).
| QUOTE (Adam Selene @ Jul 29 2006, 09:54 AM) |
| Fuchi splitting up through corporate intrigue is way different than Ares dropping Thor Shots on Proteus AG, Winternight blowing everything up, and the Matrix completely crashing. |
I think you're either confused and mixing things up or you simply haven't read SR4 and are just spouting second hand knowledge.
Ares firing Thor shots on Proteus AG was part of the Shockwaves campaign which was published 3-4 years ago now before Shadows of Europe came out. The events of Shockwaves have absolutely nothing to do with SR4 or System Failure.
System Failure was intended to bring about an appropriately climatic and shocking ending to SR3 and usher in some of the changes FanPro had planned for SR4. FanPro asked for ideas on how to bring about the second worldwide Crash and the new Matrix. I mixed my notes on an old-favorite (Winternight), a bunch of suggestions from friends and co-writers, added in the Ex Pacis alliance and ran with it. This played nicely with Jason (R:AS and Brainscan) Levine's Singularity track. Fortunately, Winternight does not "blow everything up" and though the Matrix does go down, a dozen major cities are hit by airburst EMP strikes, and hundreds of thousands of people die worldwide, the cult does not succeed. In fact less than a year later the megacorps are back to business as usual and capitalizing on the reconstruction.
Not a lot of people noticed the way System Failure brought together plot elements from all 3 previous editions by way of a tribute: Winternight, Novatech, Otaku and the AIs.
| QUOTE |
| As is Dunklezahn and YOTC, and Renraku Shutdown. All these events have one thing in common: They're isolated. You don't HAVE to run the SCIRE, you don't HAVE to go jump through hoops recovering probes for corporations or fighting toxic spirits in the Yucatan, and you definitely don't have to go on a fetch-quest for one of Big D's scavenger hunt items. In System Failure, it's world altering. |
Okay, it's probably best we ignore the whole world-shaking and country devastating Ring of Fire stuff during the Year of the Comet. And let's forget global SURGE. And let's overlook Dunklezahn's legacy wiping out Fuchi and bringing Renraku to its knees. Or the Big D's will elevating Wuxing and Cross to the AAA short-list. Or the Big D maneuvering the next president and vice-president of the UCAS into office from the grave. Or making the Cross-Ares feud global with Aurelius jumping ship. Right... those probably weren't world-altering enough to cause a blip on your radar.
| QUOTE |
| Plus the fact that the entire world-altering was tied into one of the stupidest plot devices in Shadowrun: Otaku and the "Deep Resonance", just made me want to throw myself off a balcony. I mean, Ehran the Scribe/Harlequin/etc. all would have been better. |
The fact that you dislike Otaku and the Deep Resonance (btw - surprisingly enough introduced by Findley) doesn't mean other people do. This was the culmination of the AI plotline, the development of Otaku, and their transformation into something new.
| QUOTE |
| The difference between Deus and Immortal Elves in terms of plot devices isn't what they are, it's how they're written. After reading Stephen Kenson's novels and then his contributions to the sourcebooks, I come to one conclusion: He's a hack. Good at fantasy. Horrible at integrating it into cyberpunk. I find myself more and more reading Nigel Findley's sourcebooks and appreciating the way they're written as compared to what was produced by Kenson etc. all. |
Just goes to show. Steve had nothing to do with any of the plots you are complaining about. In fact he wasn't involved in the (latter) Otaku and Deus/Brainscan plots either - those were the brain-children of Shadowland alumni Dave Hyatt, Brian Schoner and Jason Levine. Funnily enough quite a bit of the immortal elf stuff was written and co-developed by Steve Kenson, so may be you should reconsider your preconceptions?
| QUOTE |
| The Ute? Gone. |
Absorbed actually.
| QUOTE |
| Tsimshian? Gone. |
Actually no. It just lost the war. You know the one that started way back in YotC...
| QUOTE |
| Cross Applied Tech: The ONLY non-cliche megacorp is gone. Now all we have are your standard Japanese Zaibatsu, heartless American megacorps, and German masters of industry. And Aztechnology, but they're fairly unique, being state-owned (or owning the state, but honestly, what's the difference?) |
This tells me you haven't even read SR4. Evo/Yamatetsu is anything but a traditional Japanese Zaibatsu, Horizon is a wildcard, Wuxing fits none of your qualifiers, and NeoNET...
| QUOTE |
| Erika and Novatech merge along with Transys Neuronet to form...what? A company that's THE primary producer of information technology whose primary shareholder is Richard Villiers? Yeah, we've had that before. It was called "Fuchi". |
And Fuchi was destroyed way back in SR3, remember? I even mentioned the Corp War above. In fact it was one of the casulaties of Dunkies' Will. Villiers has come full circle and though he's made a bundle along the way he's no better off than when he started (which is why he's pissed at the end of System Failure) - sharing the board of a Triple A not with 2 competing Japanese clans but with a great dragon and the guy who swindled the great dragon.
| QUOTE |
| And don't get me started on Captain Chaos disappearing and being replaced with Fastjack. |
We thought long and hard on whether Captain Chaos should go down with the ship, discussed it to hell and back, and in the end we decided that it would befitting and in character if the Captain died doing what he'd always done. It was also quite neat symbolically. Captain dies at the hands the Dissonance worm but deals it a deadly wound (buying enough time to distribute the information on how to kill it) / Thor kills and is killed by Jormungand.
Fastjack has not replace Captain Chaos. His role is different than the good Captain's.
| QUOTE |
| Educate me, because I can only go on what I've been told. Control Pool is gone, and so are VCR's. So in other words: Anybody can rig. Which defeats the point of having a dedicated rigger. So it's not really a rigger anymore, it's just a wheelman, a job anybody can do. Or at least that's the way I've been instructed by those who do possess the book. |
Others have already done so so I won't bother, but suffice it to say those who have instructed you are off the mark. Though the rules may have changed the dedicated rigger is still common archetype.
| QUOTE |
| Oh, and here's the biggest thing for me, it may be minor but it strikes me as why it's a reboot: The UV host for the Boston Stock Exchange should be impossible. After Damien Knights' nanosecond buyout they put severe restrictions on stock trading to ensure nothing that drastic would ever occur again. Now suddenly they need a UV host for split-second transactions? |
They're given the chance to host the biggest IPO operation in history and the first time a megacorp releases stock in this manner and do so in a controlled and secure UV class environment and they don't accept?
Oh, God... Adam, you're giving setting nerds like me a bad name.
about the nano-second buyout. they outlawed fully computerized trading. as in, there needs to be a physical human doing the trading.
what is the fastest way to do trading in SR3? going hot sim VR
allso, i dont think UV ever was a offical class of host color. sure there was rules on how it would behave, but no-one was gunning to make a UV host. UV was yet another unknown (much like what made a SK into a AI) in the world of SR computing.
as for the toughts on riggers earlyer. the problem of the older riggers wasnt that they had a edge while driving, they totaly ruled driving. if a rigger was driving one vehicle and a non-rigger was driving another, the rigger would win without question.
the problem this time round is that the vehicle tests (where the rigger gets the biggest break over the non-rigger by getting a lower treshold) are created by the GM, not by the rules. unless the gm feels like a vehicle test is in order, the only vehicle test done is a opposed test, where treshold decreases dont count.
the vehicle rules have gone from being to involved to being so simple they are allmost useless (a scooter being able to outperform a sports car in a chase, if the driver is good? yea right). i never realy found the older rules for vehicles difficult, but then i didnt do so with the decker rules either.
heh, maybe i just love numbers
i just hope that arsenal and/or unwired bolt some more details onto vehicle combat.
and as for the drone part of riggers merging with the hacking/decking bit, with the matrix now being mostly wireless it made sense in a way. why use two protocols that fight for airtime when you can use one that can share? and like its allready pointed out, you could connect a deck to a rigged security system using a emulator allready.
and now its fully merged so that the resident security hacker can allso do duty as the security rigger, while keeping contact with the security force using their comlinks. in theory those security may even be handed control of one or more of the drones if the "spider" feel the need.
say the spider finds the node under attack and cant hold the attacker(s) off. he may then hand of some or all of the drones to any security close to them and then isolate the node from the outside world by shutting down all outside connections.
what is the fastest way to do trading in SR3? going hot sim VR
allso, i dont think UV ever was a offical class of host color. sure there was rules on how it would behave, but no-one was gunning to make a UV host. UV was yet another unknown (much like what made a SK into a AI) in the world of SR computing.
as for the toughts on riggers earlyer. the problem of the older riggers wasnt that they had a edge while driving, they totaly ruled driving. if a rigger was driving one vehicle and a non-rigger was driving another, the rigger would win without question.
the problem this time round is that the vehicle tests (where the rigger gets the biggest break over the non-rigger by getting a lower treshold) are created by the GM, not by the rules. unless the gm feels like a vehicle test is in order, the only vehicle test done is a opposed test, where treshold decreases dont count.
the vehicle rules have gone from being to involved to being so simple they are allmost useless (a scooter being able to outperform a sports car in a chase, if the driver is good? yea right). i never realy found the older rules for vehicles difficult, but then i didnt do so with the decker rules either.
heh, maybe i just love numbers
i just hope that arsenal and/or unwired bolt some more details onto vehicle combat.
and as for the drone part of riggers merging with the hacking/decking bit, with the matrix now being mostly wireless it made sense in a way. why use two protocols that fight for airtime when you can use one that can share? and like its allready pointed out, you could connect a deck to a rigged security system using a emulator allready.
and now its fully merged so that the resident security hacker can allso do duty as the security rigger, while keeping contact with the security force using their comlinks. in theory those security may even be handed control of one or more of the drones if the "spider" feel the need.
say the spider finds the node under attack and cant hold the attacker(s) off. he may then hand of some or all of the drones to any security close to them and then isolate the node from the outside world by shutting down all outside connections.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Oh, God... Adam, you're giving setting nerds like me a bad name. |
So... he's your bad twin, sort of?
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