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WhiskeyMac
So hovervehicles (i.e. vehicles that fly through the air) have been a presence in Shadowrun since at least 3rd edition New Seattle, displayed on the front cover. However, no stats or even a single rule have been seen about these elusive vehicles (that I can find at least). A T-Bird is similar but not quite what I'm going for. What or where would I find information about flying cars/trucks? Is there any speculation if they will be added to the canon with some solid stats through the sourcebooks?

Also, page 126 under the Pilot skill of Pilot Exotic Vehicle skill states "This skill is used for exotic vehicles such as undersea sleds, personal lifters, jet packs, hot-air balloons, etc." Where are the rules and what are the stats for jet packs? Will these be added as well? Was it a deleted vehicle because of space or just put in there as a teaser?

I'm asking because I've done some preliminary mock-ups of what I think the stats for a jet pack and hover vehicle would be in SR4. Just wondering if I need to scratch them out or not.
Ophis
Jetpacks fine I suppose, but NO! to flying cars. Why you ask? three words air traffic control. I always hated the cover of New Seattle, the artist was obviously mad. I could be happy with light LAV emergency vehicles but civilian ones? urrgh only mad men (in the corps and goverments) would allow it. The safety nightmare for a start...
Adam Selene
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac @ Jul 28 2006, 09:10 PM)
A T-Bird is similar but not quite what I'm going for.

No, it's exactly what you're looking for. Just not military-grade. The police cruiser that Deckard flies in at the beginning of Blade Runner? It's basically a T-Bird without stubs (but it didn't fly to the necessary altitude required for aerodynamic lift anyways)

Reduce the body rating somewhat and tone down the jet engines. Just pull something out of your ass about how it can't go as fast as a T-Bird but the jetwash isn't nearly as bad and the thrust is more directed.

QUOTE
I always hated the cover of New Seattle, the artist was obviously mad. I could be happy with light LAV emergency vehicles but civilian ones? urrgh only mad men (in the corps and goverments) would allow it. The safety nightmare for a start...


The 'plex has five air-taxi services: Emerald City Air, Renraku Air, Sea-Tac Express, Quetzal Shuttle Services, and Federated Boeing Air Carriers. The taxi services fly to all the city's major buildings, Sea-Tac airport, and the major corporate centers. (P.16 New Seattle)

Seattle's airspace is already quite populated.
Synner
QUOTE (Ophis)
Jetpacks fine I suppose, but NO! to flying cars. Why you ask? three words air traffic control. I always hated the cover of New Seattle, the artist was obviously mad. I could be happy with light LAV emergency vehicles but civilian ones? urrgh only mad men (in the corps and goverments) would allow it.

The cover of New Seattle was a tip of the hat to the Moller Skycar aerodyne. I always thought of it as runners grabbing an antique from a museum. With SR tech the current model Moller is working on is quite feasible.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Adam Selene)
Reduce the body rating somewhat and tone down the jet engines.  Just pull something out of your ass about how it can't go as fast as a T-Bird but the jetwash isn't nearly as bad and the thrust is more directed.

Back in SR3, I made a vector-thrust car based on a large vectorthrust drone chassis of R3rev - thus avoiding the ugly jetwash of T-Birds... drones had none.
Converted it to SR4 using the Eurocar Westwinds base ratings and estimated the rest:

The GMC Hotball is a sleek 3-seater with dull-wing doors, the pilot being seated alone in the front while the passengers remain in the back. It has no real storage capacity to speak of (two small or one large suitcase behind the passenger seats) and is used mainly for shuttle services.

CODE
GMC Hotball
-Handling +3
-Accel 30/150
-Speed 600
-Body 10
-Armor 6
-Pilot 3
-Sensor 1
-Cost 170000
Adam Selene
That's a hell of a lot of armor for a civilian Vector-Thrust Craft. My Сухой Штурмовик T-Bird isn't even that armored.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Adam Selene)
That's a hell of a lot of armor for a civilian Vector-Thrust Craft.

That's exactly the same amount of armor every normal car in SR4 features - even the 3-wheeled electro-subcompact. wink.gif
Adam Selene
And a body of 10. Wow, they weren't kidding when they said non-compatible.
Abbandon
Forget flying through the air cars. I'd just like to have some bad ass anti-grav/hover vehicles, especially bikes hehe. Man You could go on some gnarly police chases with those since they cant puncture your tiress hehe. You would be 100% attacked if a go-gang ever spotted you because they would want your ride.
ThreeGee
QUOTE
So hovervehicles (i.e. vehicles that fly through the air) have been a presence in Shadowrun since at least 3rd edition New Seattle, displayed on the front cover.


And where's my jet powered flying cyborg horse as illustrated in the old Aztlan sourcebook?
kigmatzomat
I'm sure they exist but they aren't cost effective. Ground effect vehicles (GEVs) like hovercraft take less power to maintain lift than free-flight aircraft (like helicopters) but they still take power while sitting still. Sure, GEVs can carry huge amounts of weight, but so can tractor-trailers. Typically ground transports are volume limited before they are weight limited.

GEVs are only valid choices when the roads are non-existent and the all-terrain aspect comes to the forefront. GEVs are about as all-terrain as it gets, barring susceptibility to grit & particulate damage. This is why GEVs are a staple in the military sci-fi genre; the all-terrain capability and extremely high weight limit are worth the otherwise exhorbitant energy budget.

Pure aircraft, like Deckard police cruiser and jet packs, require a huge amount of energy, not to mention reaction mass, to keep something airborne. Wings generate lift at higher efficiencies than vectored thrust but at the expense of a much narrower operating envelope (meaing wings don't generate lift if you aren't moving forward fast enough)

Deckard's vehicle was a hybrid of wheels and VTOL. The wheels are easy to implement and don't take any significant vehicle volume with electric hub motors; they also save quite a lot of power. Again, the power budget is pretty much unacceptable for anything except military or emergency vehicles. Deckard, as an android hunter, qualifies as "emergency personnel" and gets a spiffy VTOL vehicle.

Patrolman Bob does not.

As for jet packs, a powered hang glider (like the Nightflyer in FoF) is a much more viable form of technology.

Now if you want to run Fifth Element you will need to assume that virtually limitless power is available, along with Zorg-like weaponry.
Shrike30
"Virtually limitless power" isn't that much of a reach for the SR world. Let's assume that our civilian aerodyne stays in the air through the use of several electrically-driven fans, with a backup electrically-operated "ground car" mode using conventional wheels and a GridGuide hookup.

Keep in mind that we've had man-portable, highly effective (and fairly inexpensive) laser weapons for at least a decade. The power packs required to operate those are lightweight and efficient (they'll fit on your back, hip, or in the grip of your handgun like a conventional magazine, depending on which laser you're talking about). Storing the power shouldn't be a problem.

Getting the power shouldn't be a problem either. The SR world has figured out fusion technology, and the apparent expense of constructing and operating these power plants is low enough that there's a few near/in Seattle alone. As the power output of a fusion plant is huge, the cost of power will have plummeted, and plugging in your aerodyne when you've gotten to work/home/the restaurant is something that people are getting used to doing today, with some of the plug-modified hybrids. You could even design the vehicle to pick up power from the GridGuide system, when it's operating in groundcar mode.

Your cruising range wouldn't be huge, but for in-city use you don't need a 200+ mile operating capability. This thing would be a toy for the well-to-do, and I can see a police model being developed simply to do high-speed response work. The Italian police have at least one Lamborghini (sp?) interceptor...
ornot
I'd be inclined to acknowledge the existance of flying cars and jetpacks and the like, but they would be restricted by operating and maintanence costs, strict licensing laws, range limited by small fuel tanks and so on. There certainly wouldn't be many of them and any unlicensed vehicles would stick out as a result.

While it wouldn't be too hard for a runner to get hold of one and the appropriate fake driving and ownership licenses (which would be tougher to secure than the equivilant for a regular car), considering how balkanised a city like Seattle is with extraterritorial corps everywhere and bounded on three sides by not exactly friendly nations there's a strictly imposed limit on where the thing can go. Remember anything the runners have the corps have in spades!
Shrike30
There's nothing quite like banking slightly to the left while flying your jetpack to avoid a cloud of starlings (of which Seattle has fraggin' millions in case you were wondering), and finding you've just triggered the Aztech Pyramid's air defense network...
stevebugge
QUOTE (Shrike30)
There's nothing quite like banking slightly to the left while flying your jetpack to avoid a cloud of starlings (of which Seattle has fraggin' millions in case you were wondering), and finding you've just triggered the Aztech Pyramid's air defense network...

A mid-air collision with a Great Blue Heron wouldn't be much fun either smile.gif
Nikoli
But if Grid-guide can manage the streets to nearly eliminate grid-lock, they can use a similair system for ATC.
WhiskeyMac
But now jetpacks are canon, based off the Pilot Exotic Vehicle skill in the SR4 BBB. However, with the hover vehicle, I was thinking more along the lines of Luke's Landspeeder or a swoop bike. NOT something like the actual picture. More along the lines of an forced air vehicle with a max speed of say ... 200 with a Lone Star (law enforcement) version running at maybe 250/275. Just being able to "fly" over those potholes, dead bodies, heaps of trash, etc. would be worth the price alone. Add in some retractable wheels and you have a groundcar when you don't wanna look to suspicious.

You could even put this type of technology to use on mundane applications beside vehicles. Like cargo hauling in a warehouse. Strap the cargo down on a hover-pad, activate the unit and push with a simple hand. Oh yeah, pray to God it doesn't get away from you and pick up some inertia or someone is getting crushed by that 2 tons of soychow.

And Kigmatzomat, who says Zorg-like weaponry isn't possible? "A normal person would have asked about that little red button."

At least Shadowrun hasn't introduced the Lawgiver from Judge Dredd yet biggrin.gif
Shrike30
You want out-there sci-fi guns? Watch UltraViolet sometime. Pocket dimensions in the magazine wells of the two machine pistols giving them a several hundred round capacity, and she's got another pocket dimension in her wristbands storing the two guns and god-knows-how-much ammunition.

Amusing to watch a reload that consists of twisting your wrists, and having bullets fall out of your armband into the bottom of your gun...
kigmatzomat
Jet engines typically can churn out ~7x as much thrust as they mass. So let's say that a 2,000lb vehicle has a 500lb engine engine that turns out 3500lb thrust. At 60% power it is able to hover. It also consumes about 25lbs of fuel/minute. Given that this is a wingless vehicle, if you want an hour of flight time, you need 1,600lbs of fuel. Wait, a 500lb engine + 1500lbs fuel = 2000lb with no aircraft or pilot.

A perfect engine (100% efficient) would have a 500lb engine and 750lbs of fuel, leaving 750lbs for the pilot and aircraft. Possible, but it's a dang flimsy aircraft. Hmmm, I wonder if this is why the SkyCar has so much trouble?

Do they exist in SR4? Yeah, they do. I'm sure some Richard Branson-esque individual threw a lot of money into processing power and nanomachined parts to get something with enough efficiencies and redundancies to work.

But are they common? No, they are not. Too darned expensive, too little bang for the buck. A retractible-blade helicopter is a more feasible design.

As for the Fifth Element thing, I said "you will need to assume that virtually limitless power is available, along with Zorg-like weaponry." Which doesn't mean that I think Zorg-like weaponry is impossible, just that it becomes plausible with limitless power.
Conskill
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
But now jetpacks are canon, based off the Pilot Exotic Vehicle skill in the SR4 BBB.

Until there's more concrete rules about it, I'm putting jetpacks in the corner next to the already mentioned jet-powered cyber horse.
Samaels Ghost
Good luck getting your jetpack pack if you want it later. That horse is mean.
WhiskeyMac
Nah just bring in a jet fuel soaked apple or carrot and it will let you have it.

I think that true hover technology would be in the hands of the "well to do" as well as law enforcement and corp security. However, everything that the corps have, usually runners get a hold of. T-birds are flipping expensive and rare but maybe a more slimmed down version would be appropriate. I'm gonna throw some numbers around and prolly post my interpretation of a hover vehicle. Maybe include some links to what I think they would look like.
Abbandon
*Hands out tons of red cards for illegal use of reality physics in a fantasy set game. *

The energy output for my flying car is so insignificant i can power it by pedaling a bicycle.

You know why are we even talking about this. As long as you have amage on your team you can have a freaking flying tank if you want to. Summon a spirit that can materialize and poof. You make it turn into a tank and everybody jumps in and you all fly off into the sky.

Oracle
A Spirit powerful enough to carry a whole team? Including the statistical troll?
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Keep in mind that we've had man-portable, highly effective (and fairly inexpensive) laser weapons for at least a decade. The power packs required to operate those are lightweight and efficient (they'll fit on your back, hip, or in the grip of your handgun like a conventional magazine, depending on which laser you're talking about). Storing the power shouldn't be a problem.

For a laser "shot" to kill someone, it probably just needs to carry the power equivalent to heat a cup of water to boiling point. Apply that in an instant to flesh and you'll take a lot of burn damage, and you may even get steam pressure blowing a good chunk out of you.

So the power packs for a laser weapon would just need to power the laser process, overcome any atmospheric loss, and heat a few litres of water. Even if you scale those packs to what could be carried on a vehicle, you don't even get close to the power levels needed to lift a vehicle IMO.
kigmatzomat
Jet packs exist today, technically rocket packs, that have been used in movies (James Bond Thunderball, I think). However it's only got about 2 minutes of fuel and weighs about 100lbs. If you strapped that thrust system onto a hang glider, you could probably get something like 15 minutes of flight thanks to wing lift.

Heck, I seem to recall that the LAVs can achieve free flight but they rarely do b/c of the exhorbitant fuel expenditure. So flying vehicles are possible. They are just horribly expensive, dangerous as heck, and incredibly rare. That is why they are exotic vehicles. They have small fuel capacities, are relatively dangerous to use (too low for parachutes, close to buildings & birds, too fast for body armor, etc), have limited range, and are generally bleeding edge.

The auto became common when it was mass produced at an affordable price point and wasn't an automatic deathtrap to users. Give a car to a 14 year old and they can probably drive it safely in a parking lot. Give a jet pack to a 14yro in a wide open field and you've got at least a broken bone and possibly a dead 14yro.

Which doesn't mean that Shadowrunners won't have them but that they are small-production, limited availability, custom devices that GMs should probably think very hard about before allowing. If you want to allow a very small group of people (secret service, Red Samurai, etc) to have Deckard's jetcar, go ahead and no one will give you grief.

Give everyone jetcars and you start entering 5th Element land. Which is not a bad place (I *love* the Zorg homing rounds; one guy shoots the homer, every body elses wastes the target) but it starts drifting from SR4.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 4 2006, 03:57 AM)
For a laser "shot" to kill someone, it probably just needs to carry the power equivalent to heat a cup of water to boiling point. Apply that in an instant to flesh and you'll take a lot of burn damage, and you may even get steam pressure blowing a good chunk out of you.

So the power packs for a laser weapon would just need to power the laser process, overcome any atmospheric loss, and heat a few litres of water. Even if you scale those packs to what could be carried on a vehicle, you don't even get close to the power levels needed to lift a vehicle IMO.

The energy requirements to generate a laser beam capable of behaving in the way that the weapons from earlier editions of SR performed (thousand-meter ranges, halving hard armor, incredibly high penetration, and the ability to apply the kind of damage they did nearly instantaneously, rather than over time...) are incredible. You'll note that we don't have weapons like that today. If you're interested in more particular specs, there's other people on the board who love to rip into laser weapons every time they come up. But think about it for a second... if it were so easy to generate that kind of power, we'd have battlefield laser weapons powered by backpack-carried gas-fired generators.

The energy requirements to power an electric motor driving a fan or turbine powerfully enough to lift itself off the ground are things we can easily meet today. The power supply is the main problem (namely, that it's heavy or short-lived). If the kind of tech required to power a laser weapon as effective as the ones we've seen in SR was as light as the power packs for those weapons have been, getting an electrically-powered flying car in SR would be a cinch.

Add a drone Pilot program and have the operator issue it directions, and you're flying in no time, no skill required.
WhiskeyMac
Here are my basic thoughts/ideas on the hovercycle. First: It's not "flying" like I mentioned earlier. It has a flight ceiling of maybe 15 feet and is limited by a hardwired chip (legal reasons smile.gif). Mostly used by the well-to-do but priced well enough to be acquired by the serious hobbyist. A security/law-enforcement version is also available.

Sikorsky-Bell Swoop Hoverbike
Appearance: Maybe like this http://www.bzoll.com/bikextra.html
Civilian Stats:
Handling: +1 Accel: 20/60 Speed: 250 Pilot: 3 Body: 8 Armor: 6 Sensor: 1 Avail: 10 Cost: 150,000 nuyen.gif

Security/Law-Enforcement Stats:
Handling: +1 Accel: 25/75 Speed: 300 Pilot: 3 Body: 9 Armor: 8 Sensor: 2 Avail: 12R Cost: 200,000 nuyen.gif

For the jetpack, all I did for 3rd edition was develop a specialized VTOL drone that you could run DNI through a datajack or VCR. I guess in SR4 I would just need to adapt that to wireless connectivity or something. I just need to find the stats biggrin.gif
Shrike30
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
For the jetpack, all I did for 3rd edition was develop a specialized VTOL drone that you could run DNI through a datajack or VCR. I guess in SR4 I would just need to adapt that to wireless connectivity or something. I just need to find the stats biggrin.gif

That's basically what I did with Rigger 2. I put on a rollcage to protect the wearer in case of a crash (figured it as a kind of "cockpit" built of bars wrapped around their torso and head), had a security helmet with an induction datajack pickup inside for controlling it, and just for laughs, added an Ares Redline (the laser pistol) with 5 magazines daisy-chained together inside of the jetpack.

The initial fuel capacity was 20 liters to save on weight, but that only gave me an operating radius of something like 1500 meters. The strap-on 100 liter tank was ridiculously heavy when full (an extra 220+ pounds), but if the device that weighs that much keeps you off the ground, it's not like you have to worry about the weight quite as much. Good for chasing cars around smile.gif
kigmatzomat
People should look at Fields of Fire, it has a strap-on set of wings with a small eletric ducted fan system. It's not a "jet pack" and it's SR2 but it's something to start with.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Ophis)
Jetpacks fine I suppose, but NO! to flying cars. Why you ask? three words air traffic control. I always hated the cover of New Seattle, the artist was obviously mad. I could be happy with light LAV emergency vehicles but civilian ones? urrgh only mad men (in the corps and goverments) would allow it. The safety nightmare for a start...

...and with the way I see people drive in RL today, I'd want a permanent Anti Falling Vehicle Barrier Spell quickened on me.

Close your eyes when you listen to tomorrow morning's traffic report and imagine the carnage.

[addendum]

....worse yet, thnk of smeone all tanked up on several pitchers of Spud Lite getting behind the controls of one of these machines.

"I don need no shtinkin audiopilot ahhh kin fly jusht fine."
nezumi
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Ophis)
Jetpacks fine I suppose, but NO! to flying cars. Why you ask? three words air traffic control. I always hated the cover of New Seattle, the artist was obviously mad. I could be happy with light LAV emergency vehicles but civilian ones? urrgh only mad men (in the corps and goverments) would allow it. The safety nightmare for a start...

...and with the way I see people drive in RL today, I'd want a permanent Anti Falling Vehicle Barrier Spell quickened on me.

Close your eyes when you listen to tomorrow morning's traffic report and imagine the carnage.

The advantage of this system is the bad drivers breed themselves out over time (as opposed to now when people like me unfortunates wreck a car and just get a new one).
ShadowDragon8685
To handle DUI, you can simply take the route that Schlock Mercenary did.

Have mandatory intoxication interlocks on all vehicles. You get in drunk or high or whatever, and it won't let you fly, it will just take you home. There is no DUI crime in Schlock Mercenary, there's MOUI - Manually Operating Under the Influence. This is a capital crime if it involved someone else's death, because not only did it mean you had to disable several layers of security, an act which certainly takes stone-cold sobriety, but in some cases actually had to install a manual mode of operation in the first place.
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