Full Version: Just how smart is a non-great dragon?
I've never been to clear on this. I mean, could a normal dragon speak english, or any other language for that matter? I was considering using one as a minor antagonist...sort of a mid-level mastermind, rather than a world-bestriding monster (hence why I don't want to use a great dragon). You know, a manipulative bastard dragon that the players actually have a chance to kill.
IIRC the antagonist/protagonist (i'm not really clear what he was, since i only skimmed the adventure) of Dragon Hunt (1st ed) was a NON great dragon dragon and schemed enough to hire runners and trick his captors, etc. So, I would say at least human level and probably "bright" human level intelligence.
EDIT: don't all dragons speak through telepathy? I'm too lazy to bust out the book to see whether it says great dragons or all dragons.
EDIT: don't all dragons speak through telepathy? I'm too lazy to bust out the book to see whether it says great dragons or all dragons.
The regular Dragons are statted as having 8 in Intuition and 8 in Logic, except eastern which have 10. Great Dragons have +5 add on to the base stat. Bottom line all dragons are much smarter than the average human.
Ah, okay. I just didn't want to feel kinda silly for turning something beastial into some kind of poor man's Jabba the Hutt (which is sort of what I had in mind...a regular Eastern Dragon operating out of some kind of massage/opium parlor).
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| Ah, okay. I just didn't want to feel kinda silly for turning something beastial into some kind of poor man's Jabba the Hutt (which is sort of what I had in mind...a regular Eastern Dragon operating out of some kind of massage/opium parlor). |
You might be thinking of wyverns (which are widely believed, even though none of the dragons are telling, to be juvenile dragons). Ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray, and basically focused on mindless violence and food gathering. An adult Eastern Dragon as a "poor man's Jabba the Hutt" is completely believable (though hopefully not as...er...rotund as ol' Jabba.)
Additionally it's quite possible that the Eastern Dragon in question is capable of enough magic to keep it's true nature hidden from even it's own minions. The dragong could quite likely seem to be just another Triad/Yak/Seoulpa boss running biz, until pushed too far.
And Dragons don't have vocal cords that are capable of speaking languages like ours, they ususally speak through telepathy, and sometimes have a servant as their representative. They are capable of understanding any language but like I said they cannot speak them.
| QUOTE (Exodus) |
| And Dragons don't have vocal cords that are capable of speaking languages like ours, they ususally speak through telepathy, and sometimes have a servant as their representative. They are capable of understanding any language but like I said they cannot speak them. |
Well at least not in their true forms.
So they can speak if they take the form of a human? Or would they just look like a human, but still speak through an assistant? That might actually be kinda cool. Though in hindsight, I'm considering using a Western instead of an Eastern dragon.
Personally I like Westerns more than Easterns, and yes they can speak in human/metahuman form. Though they rarely take those forms.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| So they can speak if they take the form of a human? |
Yes.
Many are said to find doing this undignified though.
| QUOTE (Charon) | ||
Yes. Many are said to find doing this undignified though. |
The older and more traditional ones certainly. If they were hatched by the likes of Alamais or Ghostwalker they probably would follow that mode of thought. However if they were hatched by one of the more "modern" greats like Hestaby or Masaru who seem to follow the line of thought laid out by Dunkelzahn that interaction with Metahumans is necessary and even pleasent they may act differently. All Dragons have a great respect for Tradition, and the ones who adhere to it far outnumber the ones in favor of modernizing their social order.
| QUOTE |
| The older and more traditional ones certainly. If they were hatched by the likes of Alamais or Ghostwalker they probably would follow that mode of thought. However if they were hatched by one of the more "modern" greats like Hestaby or Masaru who seem to follow the line of thought laid out by Dunkelzahn that interaction with Metahumans is necessary and even pleasent they may act differently. All Dragons have a great respect for Tradition, and the ones who adhere to it far outnumber the ones in favor of modernizing their social order. |
Dragons supposedly tend to be quite independent and make up their own minds regardless of who hatched them. For example Nightsky, a rather metahuman friendly dragon from Earthdawn, was hatched by none other than the isolationist Sirrurg.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| Ah, okay. I just didn't want to feel kinda silly for turning something beastial into some kind of poor man's Jabba the Hutt (which is sort of what I had in mind...a regular Eastern Dragon operating out of some kind of massage/opium parlor). |
well, not to geek out too much, but keep in mind that Jabba was a pretty powerful crime lord. he wasn't an idiot, he just preferred to be a slimy slob than something more urbane. the 'yuck' factor gave him interpersonal power by virtue of the fact that in order to deal with him, people had to lower themselves.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
well, not to geek out too much, but keep in mind that Jabba was a pretty powerful crime lord. he wasn't an idiot, he just preferred to be a slimy slob than something more urbane. the 'yuck' factor gave him interpersonal power by virtue of the fact that in order to deal with him, people had to lower themselves. |
More importantly, he was an antagonistic mastermind who was killable. He was sort of an appetizer before they went after the entree (the emperor). What I meant by "a poor man's Jabba" was a crimelord ally/potential antagonist with an unpleasant disposition that the players eventually kill (after considerable trouble).
Also, Hutts are, by their nature, fairly slimy things. Not all of them are as unpleasant in their mannerisms as Jabba (who was not even liked among Hutts), but you're not going to see a Hutt sipping a martini and wearing a tuxedo.
Um, I believe there are quite a number of canon instances when dragons speak in metahuman form with no difficulty. "Dragons of the Sixth World", and "The Book of Dragons...." both have instances. As for learning/knowing languages, TBoD has a Great Dragon telling a Dwarf that most dragons know quite a number of languages, and some collect them.
As for intelligence? Dragons are typically feared and mistrusted, it isn't all draconic might that keeps them alive.
As for intelligence? Dragons are typically feared and mistrusted, it isn't all draconic might that keeps them alive.
A dragon is in it's shell for 100 years, much of that time it's be taught by the dragon raising it through Dragonspeech. Then they're hatchlings for the next 200 years, being taught by their "parent" dragon. They become animalistic for the next 100 years and effectivly learn nothing. Then the dragon enters a cacoon for about 10 years, I assume the dragon is not learning during this time. So, an adult dragon is learning for at least 230 years, I'd say. If a human lived that long, that would be one smart person. I can only assume that an adult dragon would be pretty smart too. That's the minimum for an adult dragon, it could be 1,000 years old and still an adult.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| So they can speak if they take the form of a human? Or would they just look like a human, but still speak through an assistant? That might actually be kinda cool. |
It would be an excellent clue for sharp players to pick up on. The triad boss who always has an assistant standing there speaking on his behalf. Though capable of speaking in metahuman form, a dragon might still prefer to do things properly.
And though it's been answered already, dragons are very intelligent. Dragons might have powerful stats, but their still going to die if someone reasonably competent gets the drop on them with a machine gun. Cunning is what keeps them alive. I have one in my game who works as a management consultant for the megacorps!
One thing I've made pretty clear to my players, especially when just discussing setting (rather than playing), is that dragons are better than you. That's just how it is. And I think most people in the world would know that (whether or not they're willing to admit it). All dragons are bigger, stronger, faster, smarter and have greater magical power than pretty much anyone who isn't a dragon or a very powerful free spirit. A dull-witted dragon (say, Logic 6 instead of 8 ) is still smarter than most humans.
"Never cut a deal with a dragon," indeed.
"Never cut a deal with a dragon," indeed.
Dragons are undoubtedly the ultimate movers and shakers. It would be kind of interesting if you took your Jabba idea and ran with it, a cunning mobster running out of an opium bar is always a solid route. I also agree that the speaking through an interpreter or perhaps simply never meeting them in person except the glimpse him in human form leaving a room or behind a closing door would drop hints that all isn't normal. Eventually when they meet him they can confirm all suspicions.
And yes, an RPG to the head is a legit response to a dragon.
And yes, an RPG to the head is a legit response to a dragon.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| And though it's been answered already, dragons are very intelligent. Dragons might have powerful stats, but their still going to die if someone reasonably competent gets the drop on them with a machine gun. |
ha. a few machine guns. and fifty pounds of c12. and a few LAWs.
shit. just save time and use a thor shot.
| QUOTE (Fix-it) | ||
ha. a few machine guns. and fifty pounds of c12. and a few LAWs. |
Run the numbers yourself. One samurai, one LMG, one prepared ambush - dragon dies.
This isn't D&D. A starting character can kill a dragon quite easily. Just like even powerful characters can be brought down by standard goons. That's what makes Shadowrun a game of cunning and treachery and why knowing you can trust someone is so valuable. The problem with dragons isn't physical power. It's that they're better at playing the treachery game than you.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| The problem with dragons isn't physical power. |
One can completely agree with this, as I do, and still think that an LMG posing a serious threat to the well-being of a dragon is stupid.
Admittedly, LMGs and EX-Ex or APDS being instakill vs. (non-great, non-magically enhanced) dragons is canon in SR, at least in SR3.
An important thing to keep in mind with running a dragon is their naturally vast lifespan. This means that they take the time to think everything through, plan for multiple contingencies, and tend to have multi-layered plots. A good analogy would be a chess grandmaster as opposed to Jabba the Hutt.
'Course this all depends on the personality of the dragon. Some may prefer to just burn down the occasional village and eat the occasional maiden...
'Course this all depends on the personality of the dragon. Some may prefer to just burn down the occasional village and eat the occasional maiden...
The problem with dealing with dragons is that a great dragon is about as far beyond the bad-assery of a normal dragon as that dragon is beyond an average meta/human, and half the time you take on a dragon you're not going to know you have to punch your GM in the face until the RPG bounces off of it.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| And though it's been answered already, dragons are very intelligent. Dragons might have powerful stats, but their still going to die if someone reasonably competent gets the drop on them with a machine gun. Cunning is what keeps them alive. I have one in my game who works as a management consultant for the megacorps! |
Consider the bredth and width of the dragons power when you consider that. I'd never have a Dragon in a game who didn't have some anchored barrier/armor spells preped and waiting for someone who does "get the drop". Possibly a heal spell anchored to a command word, can be activated as a free action. Imagine if you have 1,000 years of Karma how much would you keep on hand for renewing an anchor that may save your life.
Seriously, and when you add that to the fact that any dragon is likely to have some solid henchmen for protection, it takes quite the effort to take one down. It can be done, but its far from a walk in the park.
One might also consider the fact that their "Rivals" are other dragons, great or non, and that they're considered to always be testing eachother.
I'd be pretty paranoid myself and layer the defenses as thick as possible, but then that's just me.
I'd be pretty paranoid myself and layer the defenses as thick as possible, but then that's just me.
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