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Phasma Felis
Is recoil for the second burst fired in a combat phase modified by the recoil modifier for the first burst, or just by the number of rounds in the first burst?

That is to say, if I'm firing an Uzi III with the stock extended (recoil compensation 1), the first burst is at a penalty of (3 rounds fired - 1 RC) = 2. Is the second burst at a penalty of (first burst's penalty + 2) = 4, or (6 bullets fired - 1 RC) = 5?
The unmodified recoil affects all rounds after it.

IE: if you fire a three round burst you have a recoil of 3. If you have one point of recoil com then your recoil is dropped to 2. If you then fire another 3 round burst you know have a recoil penalty of 4. Two from the first burst, and two from the second.
As I interpret the rules, the TN is 5 in your example. See the Canon example in SR3 p. 115-116.
Ok, I feel better. This was another topic that I had questions on, but had yet to post about it...

Not taking into account recoil compensation,

Isn't there one point of recoil per bullet? A burst would then be -3, right?
What would 7 rounds be?

How much recoil would it take to compensate completely for the burst and the 7 rounds?
Yeah, because in the first round you received 3 pint of recoil but you are able to compensate only 1 tha means you suffer a 2 point penaility on your first hit.
In the second round you has 3 points of recoils + 3 points of recoils from the previous shot, but you still have the possibility to compensate only 1 point. this means that now you have a penailty of 5.
No. The recoil compansater (whatever kind it is) applies to each burst. If you were firing full auto then yah. But since you fire one burst, then fire another, you get the recoil comp for each burst.

+1 Recoil Comp

+ 3 recoil for 3/round burst


2 second burst

+1 Recoil Comp

+3 Recoil for 3/round burst

+2 Recoild uncompisated

total mods +4
Shadow, I've never seen a GM run it as you describe, and it seems counter to the example in the book (SR3 p. 115-116).

As you describe it, splitting 6 rounds of Full Autofire into 2 targets standing next to each other (one 3-round auto-fire burst into each) would invoke more recoil penalties than firing one 3-round burst-fire burst into each of them. This doesn't seem right.
I may be wrong here, this was my understanding of the rules on burst fire. Can someone who has access to the book clarify (I am at work so I am going off mem) If not I get home in a couple of hours and I can look it up.
Herald of Verjigorm
SR3 Page 113, the recoil reduction is not "per shot" it is applied to the total recoil modifier.
I also struggled with this question. So, what I did was use the example of the Ingram Supermach, it's pretty clear there. The way it seems is you only get a total of three points of recoil comp per phase - use as you will.
As i've been lead to understand, recoil comp is per initiative pass. Every time you generate a brand new action, it effectively allows you to manually re-aim the gun to compensate for the recoil of your past action, and begin blasting anew.
I thought recoil was per round. Ever time you roll, you refresh the recoil as well. Meaning that if you have three init passes in a round, you accumulate recoil for the entire ROUND! That last shot would be very tough.

Am I wrong?
Herald of Verjigorm
Read the recoil rules on page 110 and 111, they talk in terms of combat phase, not round. There is probably a more explicit quote somewhere else (likely buried in the section on home security for some unknown reason).
the rules on page 110-11 are pretty clear: "burst-fire weapons recieve a +3 recoil modifier for each burst fired in that Combat Phase" and "full-autofire weapons add a cumulative +1 modifier for each round fired that Combat Phase." the rules for recoil are equally clear; if you can't figure them out, check the example involving Wedge on pp 115-6. in it, he fires a total of 10 rounds from a weapon with 4 points of RC; his last shot has a final recoil mod of +6.
Sigfried McWild
Notice how in the example on page 115 the recoil compensation is applied to each of the 3 sub-burst the full auto attack is divided.
From that it should be quite clear that recoil compensation is applied in full every time you make a roll.
er--yeah, if you look at it like that. you subtract your recoil comp from the total number of rounds that have been fired that pass, basically.
SR3, p. 115-116
Wedge the street samurai has just gotten  out of his pick-up truck when he spots six punks from the Halloweener gang heading his way. Wedge has had runins wiht the Halloweeners in the past, so he knows he's in trouble. He decides that, even at six-to-one odds, there's no point in running. It's time to settle this now, or he'll never be able to travel Seattle's streets safely again (and that's bad for business.) Besides, he has his trusty AK-97 assault rifle - always good for leveling the playing field.

Wedge stands hi ground as the Halloweeners rush him with knives and clubs. He pulls his AK-97 from the back of his pick-up and holds down the trigger in full-auto fire. He limits his targets to the first three gangers, hitting each one with full-auto bursts consisting of 3, 3, and 4 rounds, respectively.

The AK-97 has a Damage Code of 8M. This particular weapon is also equipped with a Rating 4 gas vent system on the barrel and a shock pad on the stock, for a total of 4 points of recoil modification. The punks are all within 20 meters of WEdge, giving Wedge a base Target Number of 4 for his attack. The punks are walking, so movement modifiers do not apply. The laser sight on the rifle applies a -1 situational modifier, reducing Wedge's Target Number to 3 (4 - 1.)

The three-round burst generates 3 points of recoil, for which the weapon compensates; therefore, the Target Number remains 3. Not a problem for Wedge, his rolls are successful and he hits the first punk. The burst increases the Damage Code of the weapon to 11S.

Punk 2 is next in line to get a three-round burst. Wedge has now fired 6 rounds, raising the recoil modifier to 6. The weapon compensates all but 2 points of recoil so Wedge's target number goes up by 2. Because Punk 2 is the second target this Combat Phase, an additional +2 modifier also applies to Wedge's Target Number, raising it to 7 (3 + 2 + 2 = 7.) Wedge is on a roll and is successful in hitting Punk 2. His trusty AK-97 does the same 11S damage to Punk 2.
Wedge's third target, Punk 3, is scheduled to get a four-round burst, Wedge now has fired 10 rounds, giving him 10 points of recoil. The gun compensates for 4 points, leaving wedge with a +6 recoil modification to the target number (10 - 4 = 6.) Also, because Punk 3 is the third target, a +4 modifier also applies to the attack, raising the Target Number to 13 (3 + 6 + 4 = 13.) Lady Luck smiles on Wedge tonight, he rolls and he hits. Because this attack is a four-round burst the AK-97 does 12S damage. Ouch!

The example on p.115-116 applies to shooting in Full-Auto, which requires a Complex Action, but is resolved as independent bursts, each with their own success test. It doesn't necessarily dictate that the same happens when firing two independent bursts in two independent simple actions. So it's up to the GM to decide how to handle Burst Fire Mode. Personally, I'd rule that it would be resolved as Full-Auto Fire.
Two independent bursts would to me be treated like two independent shots. Ergo rule like Shadow. Full auto like DV8 describes it.
Additional support for my earlier position:

SR3 p. 110-111: Firing regular 3-round bursts gives a +3 recoil penalty on the first burst, and +6 on the second burst.

SR3 p. 113: Recoil compensation reduces the recoil modifier by 1 for each point of recoil compensation.

I believe these rules to mean, for the example given at the top of this thread, the TN penalties will be +2 and +5 for the first and second burst respectively.

As additional supporting evidence, I quote from Cannon Companion p. 20 under the "SuperMach 100" (as suggested by El Machinae above) which fires 6 round bursts and has 3 points of recoil compensation:
QUOTE (Cannon Companion p. 20)
These bursts suffer recoil for each bullet in the same way as standard bursts; a single burst incurs a Recoil Modifier of +6 (+3 with compensation), a second burst in the same Combat Phase would suffer +12 (+9).
I believe this is quite clear.
personaly i see the supermach to have special rules for that gun only.
why bother to make the rules for burst fire act diffrent the full auto as that is basicly a long string of bursts? i will probably handle burst fire recoil the same way as its handeld for full auto:

take the uncompensated recoil from burst one and add it to burst 2, then apply compensation again...
where are you guys getting that idea? re-read the recoil rules on page 110-111. for every burst, whether you're using burst-fire or full-auto, you apply the full recoil penalty, then subtract your recoil compensation.
Are you saying that with 3 points of compensation, I could fire two three round bursts with no recoil penalties right next to eachother?
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Are you saying that with 3 points of compensation, I could fire two three round bursts with no recoil penalties right next to eachother?

Not in my game!
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Are you saying that with 3 points of compensation, I could fire two three round bursts with no recoil penalties right next to eachother?

No, evidence is strongly pointing in the direction of a 0 recoil/+3 recoil scenario.
That is the impression I've been operating under for all my time with Shadowrun.
apply the full recoil penalty, then subtract the rating of the compensation. it mystifies and amazes me that there's confusion about this. maybe it'll be simpler to just write out the TNs.

burst 1, 3 rounds, close range, 3 points of compensation. TN = 4 (range) +3 (recoil) -3 (compensation) =4.

burst 2, 3 rounds, close range, 3 points of compensation. TN = 4 (range +6 (recoil) -3 (compensation) =7.

That's how I've always done it.

I've always seen it done the other way -- two seperate bursts, two seperate recoil issues.

Burst 1: TN 4 + recoil penalty (3) - recoil comp (3) = 4*
Burst 2: TN 4 + recoil penalty (3) - recoil comp (3) = 4*

*Granted, not allowing for situational modifiers*

Which is why non-augmented soldiers opt for two bursts rather than trying to handle a gun on full auto. (well, in the games I've played in...)

I'll have to re-read the rules more carefully.


playing that way, in my experience, makes less real-world sense. it's a lot easier and faster to drag a full burst onto your target than it is to acquire, shoot, acquire, shoot. the rules don't quite reflect that, but they at least don't make it easier to shoot two short bursts than one long one.

it's also true that recoil is less of an issue on the shot that generates that recoil, than it is on the shot following. as in, if i fire one burst at a target, recoil's not going to affect my aim much; my second burst--if i don't take the time to stop and re-aim--will be affected by the recoil from the first burst.
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