that's just it--they do. corps and governments both interact with the shadow economy to get things done. if a gummint or corporate Johnson wants to pay his low-end shadowrunners, or buy a traceless gun off the street, or do any small-scale shadow-related economic interaction, what's he do? whip out his credstick? try and pay the guy standing on the street corner with a coat full of used pistols with certified cred, or bearer bonds? i submit that the corporate/gummint Johnson uses cash. and with cash in such common use, the continued existence of ATMs makes sense.

You don't get welfare without a SIN!

Worst subject hijack ever.

For short durations you can pull similar shenanigans with Control Manipulations, but yes this can be very effective. Note that the threshold to notice that someone is possessed is pretty low if it's a decently powerful spirit. Trained professional bodyguards (Intuition 3 Perception 3) are generally going to notice a takeover by a Force 4 spirit, just as they'd generally notice the casting of a Force 4 Control Thoughts.

Magic is only subtle in that it often doesn't show up on video cameras. Trained observers are going to feel its presence with some regularity. It sort of makes you wonder if possibly everyone has the potential to Awaken.

Regardless, you're still going to want to snag your target when he doesn't have any compatriots around. The keen thing about Possession is that you can drop in Astrally and then go right for the takeover without first materializing and potentially giving them a shot at calling for help (in a quite detailed manner if they have a DNI). So have Shango wait in Astrally in the bathroom, and have your victim turn on Concealment and Movement before leaving the bathroom. Then have him leave the bathroom, past his own guards at a dead run (60+ KPH) while nearly invisibile to normal perception.

That's quality right there.

-Frank

Well, counterspelling or shielding can more easily stop a CM. In any case, they aren't really going to be able to do anything about it once they've noticed. Kill their protectee rather than let him get away? If you can punch through the Immunity to Normal Weapons. Grapple him and hold on until dawn/dusk/a banishing mage shows up? Good luck with that.

Obviously your subtle solution is better; it's just not actually necessary in a lot of instances. Actually, the best protection is still to keep your valuable personnel inside strong wards. Run, run, run...BOINK.

Moving on: It should have been explicitly stated that preparing a living vessel for possession is permanent (the only sensible thing, especially given the cost of reagants and the 1 day extended test interval (which is contradicted by the text example suggesting it's really 1 hour)). Also, one hopes and assumes given that permability of easy possession that the prep is only good for possessions by the preparing magician's spirits. I'd hate to make myself easier to possess by my own spirits and then get easily hijacked while I'm running "empty." Also, magician victims of hostile possession attempts should be able to use their Banishing skill in resisting.

Finally, I think possessing has a pretty clear advantage over materialization. (If you think I'm wrong, let me know why they're balanced.) The only game mechanic downsides are that it takes longer (Complex Action) and has a reasonable, although not big, chance to fail and waste a round entirely when hijacking a living person, and if you go for the easy inanimate object you're passing on mobility and physical fighting/services. I'd counter this by making possession tradition magicians really unpopular. Voodoo was already partway there even before the Shedim; it should be much worse now. Make NPCs magicians and mundanes hostile and prejudiced, and let the player know he's going to be facing it if he chooses such a tradition. Hell, bring back possession victims who survived the experience as crazed lunatics out for suicidal revenge.

Well, don't fight any duels right before dawn/dusk. And I'd add a significant dice penalty to any actions by the spirit while you're using it in melee. ("Where am I? Where'd that target go? I think I'm going to barf!") Hope no one banishes it, and you don't have to carry it through a decent ward or other magical barrier. Oh, and you're holding an active flame aura. That's gotta hurt.

But, yeah, there are some minor benefits to putting a non-fire spirit in your sword while fighting. Most of them are just as easily gained by putting one into your sunglasses, though. They can use their powers just fine from their, too.

This is correct. The reference in the traditions section is solely with regards to the 5 spirit types a tradition can normally summon. When designing an Ally you have the choice of making it a Materializing spirit or an Inhabiting spirit (this regardless of tradition) - in the latter case you must provide it with a vessel.

Channeling is a metamagic which enhances a Possessed magician's control of the spirit riding him. It does not extend to Inhabitation.

The spirit can animate any mechanical component of its "vessel" to function as it normally does only under the spirit's control. The spirit is not physically pushing anything about so this requires no strength, it just controls anything on a hinge, piston, gear, shift, or pulley by mechanically moving it. The whole vessel, like a Materialized spirit's body simply responds to the spirit's will - it isn't so much a conscious thing. Note that the key ignition is only necessary to start the engine and the spirit can pretty much do the same thing simply by animating the piston in the starter chamber to get the engine running - ie. magical jumpstart.

One of the reasons Possession of innanimate vessels is self-limiting in a lot of ways. Put the spirit into a car and probably won't have a drive skill (though it might default). Put it in a sword and the sword has no mechanical bits or self-locomotion ability.

You don't have to wait long, since an astral mage can be there in seconds.

I would consider spirits unaware in almost every aspect of technology, and not allow it to default to drive.

But is it "driveing"? One COULD argue that the spirit "is" the car, therefore it's more like running.

Another possibility toconsider is that some spirits might posess more understanding of these things then others. Consider the spirit is a spirit of man (or task) summoned from the the area of a major highway or something. If a Voodoo-mage stood in the middle to route 66 and called of the great spirit of the mother road herself, do you believe that such a creature would be "unaware of almost every aspect of technology"? Sure it may not know how to rewire a comlink, but CARS it would understand.

If it has SEEN them do it then it is not unaware. I have never fired a gun, but I could if you put a loaded one in my hand. I have seen people point the gun and pull the trigger. Given a few minutes I could probobly figure out how to eject the clip and put in a new one, then pull back the slide and chamber a round. I have no fireams skill, but am not unaware becasue I have seen them used.

Unaware woudl be if I had never seen a gun like weapon.

Useing my first argument:

Spirits don't have legs. (at least some don't)

Such a spirit could posess a dead body.

It has SEEN people walking, but has never done so itself.

Can the Zombie walk? Clearly it can.

I just wanted to refer you to the previous post by Syner where it was commented that the spirit can animate any part of the mechanical assembly. Therefore, if the spirit knows the wheels can go round and round, then it can simply make the wheels go round and round. That the axels, transmission and pistons move is a consequence of the motion of the wheels is a reversal of the normal order of things, but no less possible.

Would it be able to fire the sparkplugs since they are electrical in nature? I don't know enough about cars to know if they fire automatically or need to be timed by electronics.

If the spirit had Psychokenesis it should be able to self-locomote. Actually, why not do that to the car, who cares if it's wheels turns if it can fly?

[QUOTE=Fangirl]if they really need some kind of standard medium of exchange, they could use common commodities (such as cigarettes or condoms) as their currency. [QUOTE]

Or Bottlecaps

Seriously though, sorry thread about the ATM derailment earlier..

There are a number of balancing points for offensive possession (believe me it was throughly discussed). One major one with regards to stuff like Control Body is its cost effectiveness. For offensive possession to be relatively sure to work against an average human you'll be expending a service from a Force 5 or 6 spirit (with the respective risks involved in Drain and the conjuring costs of Binding if relevant). That's not even mentioning all the normal traditions that don't have the Possession option.

Another point is the Complex Action required (and not guaranteed to succeed).

Another is simply comparison with Materialized spirits. For all its enhancements a possessed metahuman is on average statistically weaker than an equivalent Force Materialized spirit.

Finally, there's spirits having problems with technology and such things as cyber and AR.

If you're still having problems with Possession the following are rules tweaks we tried out but didn't run with:
- Modify offensive Possession tests to Force vs. Int + Will.
- Disallow offensive Possession entirely and rule that only prepared vessels may be possessed.
- Only allow offensive Possession of targets in the magician's LOS (magician acts as a spotter on the physical plane).
- Or one of my faves: only allow Bound Spirits to possess vessels present during their initial Binding (effectively limiting offensive Possession to your 1 Summoned spirit).

Is Possession powerful? Yes. Too powerful? Depends on your game style, but I strongly advise people to try it in practice before finding fault.

You're new to RPG forums, aren't you?

I'd thought Possession should work like Materialization as far as services expended. I.e., "manifest and attack" is one service; possess and attack should be as well. Is this not true? Does simple possession and nothing else use a service? I guess that does actually make sense: used offensively simple possession and nothing more still neutralizes an enemy, while used on yourself or a friend it provides defensive bonuses. (Although technically a defensive/friendly possesion with no further services or orders neutralizes you, as well - channeling aside, there's no provision for "backseat driving" and just receiving passive bonuses while remaining in charge of your body.)

This would make 1 service spirits quite limited for offensive operations and 2 service spirits necessary for useful friendly possesions. That seems balancing enough, perhaps.

That's not true at all. The average possessed human is going to have F+3 body, agility, reaction, and strength. The only spirits that can beat that materialized with equal force on even one attribute are Earth (Body and Strength) and Plant (Body). But of course you'll possess the ork or troll first, who will have even better physical attributes.

At a strategic level of movement (no astral sprints) it's weaker, but I don't see what else it's missing that a manifested spirit has. A force 4 possessed troll is going to be able to bash an lift things better than a force 4 earth elemental. (Personally, I think you should have taken away Engulf...)

not to mention, lower mental attributes, so it'll be easier to possess 'em.

Picking a Force 5 spirit in order to have a reasonably reliable chance of possession againt average mental stats you get the following

F5 Beast Spirit:
Bod 7, Agi 5, Rea 7, Str 7

F5 Earth Sprit:
Bod 9, Agi 3, Rea 7, Str 9

Possessed Human:
Bod 8, Agi 8, Rea 8, Str 8

Possessed Orc:
Bod 11, Agi 8, Rea 8, Str 10

Possessed Troll:
Bod 11, Agi 7, Rea 8, Str 12

I'm assuming that the possessed characters are allowed to use all of the same powers as materialising spirits, e.g. possessed by Beast Spirit, you can have natural weapons, possessed by fire spirit, you can have elemental attack (might dissallow engulf as it makes less sense).

So the possessed version is more powerful on the whole. To balance this consider the following: firstly, there's a roughly 40% that the spirit wont be able to get in on the action straight away because he will fail to possess. That's in addition to the initial complex action that possessing takes. Secondly, and this could be a big one, if the spirit fails in the possession attempt then I would probably consider that to be a service used. The mage says "possess that troll" and the spirit is driven out - service used. Would you allow the player to say "possess an enemy" ? GM judgement call, but it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to say no, in my opinion. If you do allow it, then the player has still definitely opened themselves up to the spirit picking a non-optimum victim.

I would also not allow a spirit to make use of the victim's weapons etc. This isn't a big power-balancer, but it should be noted. That possessed orc is going to throw down his SMG and start running at you with his bare hands.

Also, a possessed character may not have access to the same movement rates and abilities that a materialised spirit has. I'm thinking of flight here, though a water spirit would also risk drowning the possessed victim when trying to dive. Also, there are occasions when a spirit may wish to dematerialise and rematerialise, e.g. to reappear on the other side of a wall. Any attempt to do this with a possessing spirit frees the original victim and requires another attempt on the next one.

Finally, we're all talking about reasonably powerful spirits. A non-possessing tradition has the option of churning out low-force combatters. Sure the Force 6 steals the show, but having a few Force 2-3 Fire Elementals zipping around can be phenomenally useful. The possessor doesn't have this option 'cause the Force 2 isn't likely to possess most people.

And even more finally, what do you do when there isn't an enemy to possess? When you're up against automated systems, or a couple of mages and other spirits?

So really, the big issue is the risk of failing to possess (possibly using service) and also the potential time delay when you really really need that spirit. The second issue is the limited usefulness of low force spirits. The third issue is the lack of possessees. But apart from all of this, you have several minor issues as detailed above. I think taking it all together it balances okay with the slightly more powerful physical forms of a possessed enemy. In fact, if I were playing, I'd probably prefer the reliability of a materialised spirit over the extra point of body (extra four if I'm lucky enough to score a Troll) that I get with a possessing spirit.

Why would any self-respecting guardian spirit with the automatics skill do that?

Of my whole post you pick the two lines that included:

?

Yes, if your possessing spirit is a guardian spirit then you could summon one with the automatics skill. Given that you could have a possessing spirit using Elemental Attack instead, it isn't usually a big issue. It was just a minor point that as I said, "should be noted."

Possessing armor may increase it's effects on encumbrance for the wearer. It's Force is added to the ratings just likepossessing anything else.

But if it was a pair of coveralls and a force one spirit, the armor rating wouldn't be high enough to cause encumbrance, right?

Thanks. Possession certainly could give a GM some headaches, though. It is good, but I think in some ways it is simply a more precise tool. A rapier can do more damage than a club, but it requires greater accuracy.

Rules arguments against the possessed pyjamas or whatever you're wearing becoming hardened armour might be a bit meaningless as there isn't really a solid rules case for it becoming hardened armour, either. You'd get some of the same problems as active foci (barriers, astral attacks, obviousness). But perhaps there is a fluff argument against it:

We don't know what Immunity to Normal Weapons represents in fluff terms. For an air spirit it might mean opening to let the bullets pass through you, For a water spirit it might mean the holes simply fill in afterwards. For a possessed item it may actually just be an ability to ignore damage. What does that red corvette care about the bullets through its engine block when the wheels are simply animated on their own, anyway? And a possessed piece of material ( "Oh mighty devil, inhabit thee this bedsheet for it is black and has not been washed in weeks"), may simply not care that a bullet has ripped through it, it could just stitch itself together again which doesn't help the poor shmuck wearing it.

ah. my mistake.

And you would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids.

And their dog.