Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: ENnies:Shadowrun Wins Both Catagories Nominated In
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Brahm
I just noticed the news update over at http://www.enworld.org. Nominated in Best Rules and Best Product, won both beating out M&M which I've heard from people is good enough that it now widely considered the defacto superhumans game. I'm guessing SR didn't get the Best Game nomination because of art? Fanpro seems to have saved all the really good art for the supplement books, which have been great so far.

Although looking through it I get the impression that you just need to have an ENWorld membership to cast a ballot, ergo time and a valid email address. So take that with a grain of whatever Internet voting salt you want. I notice that ENWorld claims daily front page unique traffic at around 32,000, with maybe 2000+ logged in at a time on the message boards. So that would take a fair number of fake accounts to significantly jack-the-box.

P.S. Being that it is a popularity contest and that SR has sold quite well, that sort of exposure to voters tends to really give you an edge.
Synner
My congratulations to all the development team which worked on SR4. You guys deserve it.
JongWK
Brahm, ENWorld registers the voting IP, so you can't log out, log in again and vote twice. Furthermore, if five gamers share the same IP, only one of them will be able to vote.

In any case, these are good news. Congratulations everyone! smile.gif
Sepherim
Yup, they did the best SR ever (IMO) and this comes to show it. Congratulations!
MK Ultra
Congratulations!

SR4 really has the best rules system I know.

I have to agry with Bram however, that ...

QUOTE
I'm guessing SR didn't get the Best Game nomination because of art?


I am very glad that this has change in the latest suplement books smile.gif
Demonseed Elite
wow, that's pretty sweet!
JongWK
QUOTE (MK Ultra)
Congratulations!

SR4 really has the best rules system I know.

I have to agry with Bram however, that ...

QUOTE
I'm guessing SR didn't get the Best Game nomination because of art?


I am very glad that this has change in the latest suplement books smile.gif

The ENnies are a bit strange. What makes the difference between Best Game and Best Product? Art might as well count in the latter as production values, while rules could fit in the former. Then again, they also have Best Rules. wobble.gif
Dogsoup
Good news. Hopefully this will reflect in sales.
WhiskeyMac
I don't know about you guys but I have that song from Karate Kid going threw my head right about now ...

"You're the best around" rotfl.gif
Frag-o Delux
Not to take anything away from the SR guys, SR4 is a nice game, but not SR to me and doesnt seem right to me.

I just see something wrong with WotC being second place as the best publishing company, but they won nothing else. How can you be the best and not have any other awards? I guess you get strange anomalies with opinion polls.
Derek
Good job, guys on the awards!
Bull
QUOTE (JongWK)
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Aug 12 2006, 11:51 AM)
Congratulations!

SR4 really has the best rules system I know.

I have to agry with Bram however, that ...

QUOTE
I'm guessing SR didn't get the Best Game nomination because of art?


I am very glad that this has change in the latest suplement books smile.gif

The ENnies are a bit strange. What makes the difference between Best Game and Best Product? Art might as well count in the latter as production values, while rules could fit in the former. Then again, they also have Best Rules. wobble.gif

Best game was described sort of as "most fun to play", with originality of concet thrown in.

Best product takes into account everything all around. Art, layout, prduction, writing, etc.

Either way, was cool, I have a few pics I'll post when I get home, and definately congrats to the gang.

Bull
LilithTaveril
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Not to take anything away from the SR guys, SR4 is a nice game, but not SR to me and doesnt seem right to me.

I just see something wrong with WotC being second place as the best publishing company, but they won nothing else. How can you be the best and not have any other awards? I guess you get strange anomalies with opinion polls.

Because a lot of people hate WotC, but can't find a suitable replacement for DnD among the other choices. WotC is known for very shoddy products and horrible misprints, in addition to producing what probably the most rules-heavy game on the market and trying their best to control all products released under the d20 license. About the only reason I can think of that they would get second is how fast they get their books out.
Lady Anaka
Also, only releases in the last year count. D&D 3.5 didn't come out last year, which takes them out of all the "game" categories for RPGs. They do have plenty of spplements, which could have got them considered, but although WotC puts a goodly chunk of change into each of their supplements, I don't think there's one that could be considered in the same category as, say, A Game of Thrones for sheer art and production values. Ordinarily they're one of the best games on the block for that, but there isn't one of their supplements that can compete with one of their corebooks for art and design, and that tends to hold true almost across the board. When it's going up against a core book that's taken care to go above and beyond the call of duty, they're not going to be able to compete -- in that instance.
coyote6
As far as I know, publishers still have to submit products for them to be eligible. In past years, WotC did not submit products; thus, they were nominated for no awards, and won none. It could have happened again this year.

OTOH, the Best Publisher award doesn't require a publisher to make a submission, AFAIK.

BTW, congrats to the SR4 team. My top two votes went to M&M & SR4, so I'm glad they both did well. smile.gif
kigmatzomat
Awards for any particular product requires the company to submit a copy for the judges to review. The product categories are admittedly and somewhat intentionally vague as there are so many crossover products. Best Product covers anything, Best Game overlaps Best Rules and many core rule books include an adventure suitable for Best Adventure.

If SR4 may or may not have been entered by FanPro in all the categories that you or I might think it qualifies for.

Awards for companies as a whole are fan-nominated and do not require any products to be submitted. There is also a fan-favorite category that also does not require a product submittal.

And WotC does not submit to ENWorld. In the past they did not b/c they claimed it would be unfair as most of the competition are d20 products but I suspect that in more recent times it is a matter of fearing fan backlash. How would it look if WotC did NOT win?
Brahm
I believe that the gist of it would be they have nothing to gain by entering. The best those awards could do is give exposure, which is frankly something WotC doesn't need too much of. Especially to people that have even a clue who ENWorld is. The press exposure that would be useful to them is way, way more mainstream.

Such is the gulf between WotC and the rest of RPGs. Because every other publisher can benefit from that exposure. Even ones are only one rung down, like Fanpro. Especially the ones that are outside of D20 at a site like ENWorld.
LilithTaveril
Actually, WOTC has a lot to gain by entering. And, they have even more to lose. The one thing to keep in mind is WOTC tries to actively dodge any case where you have a chance to compare their products to those of another company. If they actually entered, they have a chance to prove that their products really are up to their claims. But they also risk having it proven that they're nowhere close to what they claim and having all of their embarassments aired in such of a way that leaves them unable to avoid the consequences. There's simply too much risk for them.
Brahm
QUOTE
Actually, WOTC has a lot to gain by entering

Like what? For Dread, a nifty little game that I believe just had a 100+ units sold before the nominations, just being nominated and then getting that Judges' Award nod is likely huge in just getting people to consider it. It basically lets people know that it exists and stands it out from the crowd of all the little games out there.

But for WotC they simply have zero need for that in the venue that the ENnies are in. Because they are, for the forseeable future, a market onto themselves. You can't freaking avoid them. Just go into a store that carries any RPG materials and try to not notice the D&D books. They are in book stores where they are the only RPG books.

As for the quality of WotC products, come on. They actually have decent overall quality. However they tend to be bland and inoffensive which means they don't usually stand out and spectactular. They actually have a number of good products. Unfortunately when you churn out as much material as they do, especially given that they are getting very late in the cycle for 3rd edition, you get stuff that is a lot more filler or very niche and usually little that has the spark and freshness to really drive a large number of people to go "hell yeah"!
LilithTaveril
Brahm, please excuse me for this, but when did you start playing DnD? Because, even with the current edition, they've managed horrible quality. I mean such horrific misprints as half of the Complete Divine pages being put in upside down in a few books. Most of the ideas they have for their current products are obviously just ideas they stole from elsewhere (like Dagon in the Fiendish Codex). Unearthed Arcana itself is a violation of a deal they had with another company. And to add to their problems, the change in the d20 License to attempt to control what products are submitted under it. Some of that stuff is years old, but that doesn't mean it stopped.

The main challenges to DnD anymore are that most of it's uncreative rulesfests and that the products are shoddy and often in need of more errata than the company itself is willing to give. Add to that the fact that most of their errata is in FAQs instead of actual errata... Basically, what they have to gain is proving they're actually producing a product worth spending money on and proving those critics wrong. What they have to lose is everything.

Edit: Brahm, I must apologize for this. I've been arguing with James McMurry on another topic.
JongWK
The hat of d02 is strong in this one.

devil.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (JongWK)
The hat of d02 is strong in this one.

Damn you flipping coin!!!! DAMN YOU!!!!!
Brahm
QUOTE (LilithTaveril @ Aug 14 2006, 03:02 PM)
Brahm, please excuse me for this, but when did you start playing DnD?

About 20 years ago. I bought the 3e book the day it dropped in my FLGS, and it rocked. It was just that much better than so much out there, and the $20 US price was steal. The rules were polished far beyond what was industry norm, and considering the legacy the developers were shackled with it was quite fresh. It included a CD with a computer program for generating characters. Quality, full color front to back on quality paper with good art. Sure now we take such things for granted now, but at the time this was something done up right.
QUOTE
I mean such horrific misprints as half of the Complete Divine pages being put in upside down in a few books.

An excellent example of where being bigger with a higher profile and putting out so many different products can hurt you. Because eventually some printer is going to screw up some books in your order, and then it gets multiplied and propagated and built into near myth.
QUOTE
Most of the ideas they have for their current products are obviously just ideas they stole from elsewhere (like Dagon in the Fiendish Codex).

Call the papers! That's breaking news alright, that an RPG borrowed a name and idea from somewhere else in classic literature! eek.gif wink.gif
QUOTE
The main challenges to DnD anymore are that most of it's uncreative rulesfests...

Nearing the end of the product cycle. When you've put out so much material it's hard to come up with new things, especially when your size tends to limit the size of the niche you can focus down to.
QUOTE
Edit: Brahm, I must apologize for this. I've been arguing with James McMurry on another topic.

No problems, I understand. Oh god do I understand. frown.gif
mfb
QUOTE (LilithTaveril)
The main challenges to DnD anymore are that most of it's uncreative rulesfests...

i dunno. Eberron is cool as hell, i think, and the Book of Nine Swords has really grabbed my attention. it's got this magicesque system of moves and countermoves that allows for really stylized fighters.
LilithTaveril
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (LilithTaveril @ Aug 14 2006, 03:02 PM)
Brahm, please excuse me for this, but when did you start playing DnD?

About 20 years ago. I bought the 3e book the day it dropped in my FLGS, and it rocked. It was just that much better than so much out there, and the $20 US price was steal. The rules were polished far beyond what was industry norm, and considering the legacy the developers were shackled with it was quite fresh. It included a CD with a computer program for generating characters. Quality, full color front to back on quality paper with good art. Sure now we take such things for granted now, but at the time this was something done up right.

/me bows and worships.

Yes, it was. I was a little disappointed with some aspects, but after looking through the rest, I was excited. At least 3.5 fixed psionics.

QUOTE
QUOTE
I mean such horrific misprints as half of the Complete Divine pages being put in upside down in a few books.

An excellent example of where being bigger with a higher profile and putting out so many different products can hurt you. Because eventually some printer is going to screw up some books in your order, and then it gets multiplied and propagated and built into near myth.


Heh. I still remember printer screwups with FanPro. But, FanPro, Chaosium, and all of the others do one thing WOTC doesn't: They admit a mistake like that happened. WOTC doesn't post it on their website, so they get blamed. In my case, I just like to rag on them for not putting it all on the line. If they bother to take this risk, whether or not they win an award doesn't matter to people like me. What matters is they had the guts to walk in, stand with everyone else, and be judged alongside the rest of the industry. After that, if they choose to never show up again, then that's their deal.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Most of the ideas they have for their current products are obviously just ideas they stole from elsewhere (like Dagon in the Fiendish Codex).

Call the papers! That's breaking news alright, that an RPG borrowed a name and idea from somewhere else in classic literature! eek.gif wink.gif


Actually, in this case, it is a potentially big deal. When it comes to rights to use any of Lovecraft's items in games, Chaosium owns exclusive rights. They licensed those to WOTC for a bit to produce CoC d20, but beyond that they are really the only ones who should have Lovecraft's creations.

QUOTE
QUOTE
The main challenges to DnD anymore are that most of it's uncreative rulesfests...

Nearing the end of the product cycle. When you've put out so much material it's hard to come up with new things, especially when your size tends to limit the size of the niche you can focus down to.


Actually, there's plenty of room. For example, my group recently combined DnD with SR and a few original ideas to create a unique game setting. Plus, Eberron proved there are areas that regular DnD never even thought to go which it currently holds a near-exclusivity to. The problem is they simply lack imagination.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Edit: Brahm, I must apologize for this. I've been arguing with James McMurry on another topic.

No problems, I understand. Oh god do I understand. frown.gif


I have a genetic disposition towards short tempers in my family. Thank god for violent video games.
Brahm
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 14 2006, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE (LilithTaveril)
The main challenges to DnD anymore are that most of it's uncreative rulesfests...

i dunno. Eberron is cool as hell, i think, and the Book of Nine Swords has really grabbed my attention. it's got this magicesque system of moves and countermoves that allows for really stylized fighters.

rotfl.gif I actually considered mentioning Eberron, because it is decidedly different. I just haven't played in it myself yet, so I didn't want to open that can of worms.

Ironically it seems to me Eberron is the closest an offical campaign setting has come to matching up with the level of magic that the D&D/AD&D rules have long implied. Which is to mean heavy, heavy on the magic.
James McMurray
Was Forgotten Realms not heavy enough magic?
Adam
QUOTE (LilithTaveril)
Heh. I still remember printer screwups with FanPro. But, FanPro, Chaosium, and all of the others do one thing WOTC doesn't: They admit a mistake like that happened. WOTC doesn't post it on their website, so they get blamed.

I'm not aware of the specific situation with the book in question, but it is entirely possible that WoTC -- or any other company -- had no idea about the problems with the book until it was into the customer's hands, and once the books are shipped out it's difficult to find out how many are damaged. A signature being bound in upside down -- or one being left out and another duplicated -- isn't exactly uncommon in any print run. If 100 books out of a 30,000 print run are misprinted, a publisher of WotC's size is better off handling the problem with each individual person [or store or distributor, depending on where the books are found] than making some sort of public comment about it that could discourage future sales.
LilithTaveril
Unfortunately for WOTC, the people who got the misprinted books went on to badmouth them for quite awhile. From what I hear, sales of splatbooks dropped a bit for awhile as a result of that. Making a statement that a publisher foulled up a few books after hearing about it from customers would have redirected customer attention to the publisher and made them look the good guys. Much like FanPro's problems getting the BBB out.
Brahm
I get the impression that printing errors like that sadly happen quite often, so it would be a constant deluge of notices of every time the printer screwed up. For all publishers. I also find dubious the claim that they managed to noticably impact sales, or that real data showing this ever actually surfaced. Links?

Sounds like unfortunately for WotC they got unlucky and one of those books happened upon the customer from hell. Really, did they contact their reseller or WotC and not get a replacement book?
LilithTaveril
Not finding any. So, I'll just admit I'm an idiot on that subject. I will say it was the customer from Hell, though. Rather than ask for a better product, they spent all of their time on the forums badmouthing WOTC.
Brahm
QUOTE (LilithTaveril @ Aug 14 2006, 05:57 PM)
So, I'll just admit I'm an idiot on that subject.

Well you do know more specifics than me. smile.gif I'd never even heard of it before. I don't doubt that he was talking crap about how he was so driving down WotC sales, or was trying to take claim for some incidental softening in FLGS channel sales that were being reported (which of course is an industry wide phenom).

But then I haven't done much D&D specific message boards for some time. I just happened to be checking into some things on ENWorld lately because one of my groups has been playing 3e/3.5 and we've come to sort of a dead end, and have decided it's time to shake things up a lot.

Things did already shake up some with one of the players starting to date the sister, who is another one of the players, of a 3rd player who is a friend of the first and introduced the first to the group. question.gif Ya, I don't exactly get WTF the problem is either? The brother that isn't showing up hasn't say a word to either his sister or his now ex-friend. As far as I know he hasn't even mentioned the subject to another guy that he does still hang out with and is also in the group.

But mostly it is burnout on the rules thing, and we are going to shortly start a hiatus from D&D. As far as I'm concerned I'm ready to go somewhere else till 4e come out in 2 or 3 years and then check back then. I think there are plenty of games that have caught up or leapfrogged 3e, even in it's core market of swords and sorcery. At the very least others do lower-than-Eberron levels of magic better. I could never really get into 3e FR, muchless Eberron. It just isn't my particular cup of tea. Shadowrun actually bothers me a smidgen that way too, but the modern mixed in seems to ease it for me.
James McMurray
My group burned out on d20 a while ago too. Our changes took us to L5R, Shadowrun, Warhammer FRPG, Hackmaster, Rolemaster, Silhouette, nWoD, and soon Spacemaster. I'd recommend any of those, or at least recommend how we used them, as I don't have a lot of knowledge beyond being a player on a couple of them (WFRPG, HM, and L5R).

If you're looking for lower magic levels but still Swords and Sorcery then Warhammer Fantasy RPG and Legend of the Five Rings might be for you. They both have magic rules that are useful without being over powered. L5R is, of course, very oriental in nature. Warhammer is more generic, although it's still fairly setting specific with Chaos being a major factor.

I wonder if Cain will pop his head in and tell us that when switching games the only thing worth playing is Savage Worlds? smile.gif
coyote6
My copy of Atlas Games' Penumbra Bestiary has the first 16 pages twice -- once in their normal place, and once right before that, upside down. Every other page is there -- I just got a bonus.

Also, regarding Dagon -- Dagon was a real-world deity, "a major northwest Semitic god", to quote Wikipedia. He's mentioned in the Bible and in Paradise Lost. He's also mentioned in AD&D 1e, so it's not a new 3.5e blasphemy. smile.gif
Dissonance
Savage Worlds? Forget that noise. Me and my homies keep it real with Bunnies and Burrows.
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE (coyote6 @ Aug 14 2006, 09:59 PM)
My copy of Atlas Games' Penumbra Bestiary has the first 16 pages twice -- once in their normal place, and once right before that, upside down. Every other page is there -- I just got a bonus.

Also, regarding Dagon -- Dagon was a real-world deity, "a major northwest Semitic god", to quote Wikipedia. He's mentioned in the Bible and in Paradise Lost. He's also mentioned in AD&D 1e, so it's not a new 3.5e blasphemy. smile.gif

A lot of the names of the creeping chaos were taken from different cultures too. And try and tell me that the one-eyed, spear-chucking, hunter Nodens isn't modeled after Odin and I'll KILL YOU!

Edit: Crawling Chaos, Nyarlathotep
mfb
QUOTE (Brahm)
Ironically it seems to me Eberron is the closest an offical campaign setting has come to matching up with the level of magic that the D&D/AD&D rules have long implied. Which is to mean heavy, heavy on the magic.

that's one thing i really like about the setting. they make a real attempt at extrapolating what a world possessed of magic might turn itself into--and with a minimum of anachronisms, which i kinda think is the cheap way out.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012