Street Magic pretty clearly bans overlapping wards that share the same area and boundaries, so you can't make intruders face group rules as they attack ten Force 5 wards simultaneously. Good. For those without a certain, uh, magnitude of sneakiness, it also pretty clearly bans putting a small cubic ward into a larger one to get the same teamwork effect for ritual sorcery defense, or just efficiency in creating layered defenses. Is this latter point how everyone else sees it? There is some room for fudge if you consider a wards area of intersection to only include its outer boundary, not its interior volume. If it were just the boundary, you could build a nice Russian nesting doll system of wards.
Let's assume worst case. What's the most efficient layered ward blueprint if you have to line them up side by side and want to force anyone to go through two wards to reach something in the middle? My interpretation of the "no overly complex shapes" rule is that a ward can be any convex shape. In a skyscraper that would require at least six wards - three for the sides (most people would probably use four, though, for a rectangular shape), one for the top and bottom, and one in the middle. That's a lot of wards, but I suppose it will still be worth it in a real corporate astral zero zone.
As far as the specialized wards go, I'm glad charged wards provide a reason for taking Reflecting. I still wouldn't do it. And trap wards, like Anchored Foci, provide a reason to take Anchoring and never spend karma actually anchoring a spell. I have the vague feeling some SR3 era specialized wards are missing, but I can't recall what they were.
Incidentally, I really liked how they handled biological astral defenses, i.e. ivy and FAB. You can fight your way through it, but it's visible on the physical plane and they can know to call in the astral troopers from off site. None of the weird metaphysical problems from when some of this stuff was first introduced in the old Corp Sec book. I suspect Guardian Vines or their equivalent were in an SR3 book I don't recall, but kudos if they're new. Haven Lily, is especially nice, although I'm not sure that it isn't counterproductive when it comes to astral security against pure surveillance.
Full Version: Astral security and Street Magic
| QUOTE (Slithery D) |
| There is some room for fudge if you consider a wards area of intersection to only include its outer boundary, not its interior volume. If it were just the boundary, you could build a nice Russian nesting doll system of wards. |
I can say this since I wrote it, but the intent is that you can not nest wards. The first sentence in that subsection says, "wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area of astral space." A Russian nesting doll security technique would be considered layering.
Ah, thanks, after reading the section I thought this was possible.
Here's a helpful way to think about it. When a ward is placed, the space inside the ward is "warded." That same volume of space can not be warded a second time. This means there can't be a ward inside a ward, since part of that volume of space would be warded twice. It also means two wards can't intersect and overlap, because again a section of space would be warded twice.
I have a 1 meter by 1 meter floor tile that I want to serve as the physical anchor for a ward. I also want the ward to share it's structure with the floor tile. Am I right in asusming that the minimum volume that could be warded with this floor tile would be cube with a base the shape of the floor tile and extending up from the floor one meter?
| QUOTE (Slithery D) |
| Let's assume worst case. What's the most efficient layered ward blueprint if you have to line them up side by side and want to force anyone to go through two wards to reach something in the middle? My interpretation of the "no overly complex shapes" rule is that a ward can be any convex shape. In a skyscraper that would require at least six wards - three for the sides (most people would probably use four, though, for a rectangular shape), one for the top and bottom, and one in the middle. That's a lot of wards, but I suppose it will still be worth it in a real corporate astral zero zone. |
If my understanding of this is correct, you could "layer wards" if you can construct wards adjacent to each other so that no one can pass between the two wards. See the follwoing (2-dimesional) example with 8 wards (in 3d you would need 12) where no ward overlaps or "guards" the same space, but to get inside you have to pass at least two wards two times (inside and then out):
http://prionic6.de/philipp/layered_wards.png
Anyone thinks this should be possible?
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) |
| I have a 1 meter by 1 meter floor tile that I want to serve as the physical anchor for a ward. I also want the ward to share it's structure with the floor tile. Am I right in asusming that the minimum volume that could be warded with this floor tile would be cube with a base the shape of the floor tile and extending up from the floor one meter? |
That's correct.
| QUOTE (prionic6 @ Aug 23 2006, 07:48 AM) |
| If my understanding of this is correct, you could "layer wards" if you can construct wards adjacent to each other so that no one can pass between the two wards. See the follwoing (2-dimesional) example with 8 wards (in 3d you would need 12) where no ward overlaps or "guards" the same space, but to get inside you have to pass at least two wards two times (inside and then out): http://prionic6.de/philipp/layered_wards.png Anyone thinks this should be possible? |
Looking at that illustration, it looks like it would work. But remember, since none of those wards in that illustration are encasing the entire area, it looks like it would be possible for an astrally projecting magician (or spirit in astral form) to fly over the wards. You could put one domed ward in the center, but then those would still only be passing through one ward.
But for dual-natured beings that can't fly, you're right, they'd have to pass through two wards.
EDIT: Unless with the "12 wards in 3d" comment, you mean there are adjacent wards acting as a roof. Still, I think flying astral forms would still only be passing through one roof ward.
I did the picture in two dimensions to illustrate the point... In reality, you would have to have two additional wards for each "layered cube" at the bottom and at the top.
Nah. You just have really, really hostile spirits filling the areas above and below the wards. Anyone who flies in gets mobbed.
Technically, I think something like that could work. Finding proper physical anchors for a set-up like that could be challenging, though.
Is cyberwear acceptable for a physical anchor? Could provide a very interesting twist on the cortex bomb that keeps the salaryman from leaving...
From a thaumaturgic perspective implanted cyberware is a holistic part of an individual and inseperable from the character's living aura. Since living auras can't be used as physical anchors...
Okay. Make it a vest of plastic explosives instead.
As long as the vest is fixed in space with relation to the warded area and doesn't change its relative position, then yes.
Well, something simple: Put the salaryman in a chair, set the vest to explode if stands up or moves the chair from that spot, and give him a gun. Make sure to tell him the vest will explode if he shoots you as you hand him the gun.
Poof. Instant ward protector. And it's really cheap and an easy way to dispose of the salaryman who isn't worth the effort of keeping employed. Just make sure to feed and water him.
Poof. Instant ward protector. And it's really cheap and an easy way to dispose of the salaryman who isn't worth the effort of keeping employed. Just make sure to feed and water him.
| QUOTE (LilithTaveril) |
| Well, something simple: Put the salaryman in a chair, set the vest to explode if stands up or moves the chair from that spot, and give him a gun. Make sure to tell him the vest will explode if he shoots you as you hand him the gun. Poof. Instant ward protector. And it's really cheap and an easy way to dispose of the salaryman who isn't worth the effort of keeping employed. Just make sure to feed and water him. |
You'd also have to have some sort of system to exercise his muscles (so that he can still lift and fire the gun) and remove wastes and wash him (even if the stench isn't a problem, without some form of hygiene the guy will get sick and die which is a waste of resources). Oh, and put some system in place to keep his mind focused and attentive to the situation at hand because otherwise he'll be daydreaming and thus shot repeatedly in the face when the shadowrunners break into the facility.
It's an interesting thought, just not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.
why not just make it a drone? seems a heck of a lot easier and cheaper if you ask me, and if the person is that much superior to a drone's combat capabilities, then clearly you shouldn't be throwing them away so readily, because they've got above average skills.
anyways, seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard to make someone go through multiple wards. a PITA, yes, time consuming to make the wards, yes, but for example:
anyways, seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard to make someone go through multiple wards. a PITA, yes, time consuming to make the wards, yes, but for example:
| CODE |
_ _ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |_| |_| |
that's two wards, side by side, not overlapping, and not nested. just do that on each side, and you've forced someone to go through two wards. repeat for more wards if you feel the need, and so forth. but like i said, that would be just a little annoying.
in any event, IMO if you really want a strong barrier, just make it someone's lodge. as i recall, there is nothing keeping a force 1 magician from making a lodge as strong as he wants other than having the materials and the time. so if you give a mage 10,000
worth of materials, and wait 20 days, you can have a force 20 lodge that will be really hard to break into, without any nesting or overlapping whatsoever =)and of course, technically speaking, there's no rule against nesting or overlapping wards with lodges, mana barriers, etc, so you can always layer those instead
| QUOTE (neoweasel) | ||
You'd also have to have some sort of system to exercise his muscles (so that he can still lift and fire the gun) and remove wastes and wash him (even if the stench isn't a problem, without some form of hygiene the guy will get sick and die which is a waste of resources). Oh, and put some system in place to keep his mind focused and attentive to the situation at hand because otherwise he'll be daydreaming and thus shot repeatedly in the face when the shadowrunners break into the facility. It's an interesting thought, just not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. |
Actually, it is as simple as I make it out to be. If you put him in that situation, you already stopped caring if he lives or dies. The guy himself has become a waste of resources, and thus if he dies of disease, gets shot by runners, or simply goes boom from leaning back in his chair too much doesn't quite matter. In all cases, you really don't intend him to live that long.
| QUOTE (LilithTaveril) | ||||
Actually, it is as simple as I make it out to be. If you put him in that situation, you already stopped caring if he lives or dies. The guy himself has become a waste of resources, and thus if he dies of disease, gets shot by runners, or simply goes boom from leaning back in his chair too much doesn't quite matter. In all cases, you really don't intend him to live that long. |
I honestly think that most corps would look at whatever level of resources they'd already invested in the salaryman and decide that they want to make sure that they get their investment back. I think that there are three reasons they'd do this:
1) They probably won't have enough salarymen they care so little about. If the corp is going to throw lives away that fast, they need to make sure they have enough to replace the ones who die.
2) The sort of person that would order a person into that sort of situation borders on psychopathic disregard for others. The number of people who are that messed in the head that are still functional enough to get into management positions is relatively small.
3) I'm not convinced that the additional overhead of disposing of the bodies and rapid turnover and paying people to clean out the booth after the poor guy is dead wouldn't boost costs high enough that most corps wouldn't consider it a net gain on profits.
Regardless, I think most people will agree that even if corps do this, it would be quite rare for the reasons I outlined above.
Of course, I figure a stationary implacement with sentry guns that the corp rigger can take over might be a better use of resources.
| QUOTE (neoweasel @ Aug 23 2006, 08:09 PM) |
| I honestly think that most corps would look at whatever level of resources they'd already invested in the salaryman and decide that they want to make sure that they get their investment back. I think that there are three reasons they'd do this: 1) They probably won't have enough salarymen they care so little about. If the corp is going to throw lives away that fast, they need to make sure they have enough to replace the ones who die. |
Doesn't take that many. Use the people you were going to fire anyway for it. Most companies have enough of those.
| QUOTE |
| 2) The sort of person that would order a person into that sort of situation borders on psychopathic disregard for others. The number of people who are that messed in the head that are still functional enough to get into management positions is relatively small. |
You mean, like the heads of Enron, the tobacco companies, the Robber Barrens of the early 1900s, the heads of Walmart...
Also, it's not a psychopathic disregard. It's a sociopathic disregard taken to the extreme. There's a very, very important difference between the two. It's also minor, but still there.
| QUOTE |
| 3) I'm not convinced that the additional overhead of disposing of the bodies and rapid turnover and paying people to clean out the booth after the poor guy is dead wouldn't boost costs high enough that most corps wouldn't consider it a net gain on profits. |
As opposed to the cleanup costs of repairing bullet holes, replacing blown-out walls, replacing furniture and weapons destroyed by grenades, and replacing brain-friend riggers that your suggested alternative creates?
| QUOTE (LilithTaveril) |
| Doesn't take that many. Use the people you were going to fire anyway for it. Most companies have enough of those. |
For each ward like this you want to put in place, you need 26 people you're already planning on firing a year. Logic follows: a person can survive for about 3 weeks without food. After one maybe two weeks, he'll be so weak from starvation that he won't be able to fire the gun and have a snowball's chance in Hades of hitting anything useful.
| QUOTE |
| You mean, like the heads of Enron, the tobacco companies, the Robber Barrens of the early 1900s, the heads of Walmart... Also, it's not a psychopathic disregard. It's a sociopathic disregard taken to the extreme. There's a very, very important difference between the two. It's also minor, but still there. |
There is a very different mindset between "I don't care that my actions have a potentially fatal effect on people I know nothing about" and "I am ordering you Solomon Salaryman to do this thing that is, for all intents and purposes, suicide.
| QUOTE |
| As opposed to the cleanup costs of repairing bullet holes, replacing blown-out walls, replacing furniture and weapons destroyed by grenades, and replacing brain-friend riggers that your suggested alternative creates? |
Well, you're still going to have to pay for most of that with your idea, with one major difference - some random salaryman with a pistol has no chance in stopping a determined entry team. The rigger and drones may not have a low chance, but it isn't 0. Corps don't waste resources on projects that have no chance of success.
I also think you are overlooking two more factors that make this a bit unreasonable. Who is going to sit in a chair perfectly still for extended periods of time? Also, any person treated like this has a pretty good chance of turning the pistol on themselves to save themselves from starving to death.
Functionally, this is not an argument that is even slightly useful for either of us. I say no, you say yes and it's not like we're all that likely to be in a game together. *shrug* On the other hand, I'm perfectly happy to play along as long as you are.
| QUOTE (neoweasel @ Aug 23 2006, 09:46 PM) | ||
For each ward like this you want to put in place, you need 26 people you're already planning on firing a year. Logic follows: a person can survive for about 3 weeks without food. After one maybe two weeks, he'll be so weak from starvation that he won't be able to fire the gun and have a snowball's chance in Hades of hitting anything useful. |
Part of why I specified you had to feed him. Besides, with the ward setup I was looking at, you only need eight. You use spirits for the other areas.
| QUOTE | ||
There is a very different mindset between "I don't care that my actions have a potentially fatal effect on people I know nothing about" and "I am ordering you Solomon Salaryman to do this thing that is, for all intents and purposes, suicide. |
Not really that different. It depends on the approach. In this case, it is the approach of taken wasted resources and trying to get a last-ditch benefit from them, all the while saving money on more expensive security features. The spirits being used in the other areas are putting the expensive mages you pay to make the wards busy during the times they're not warding. But, to the guy being strapped with explosives, I don't honestly think this issue of semantics matters that much.
| QUOTE | ||
Well, you're still going to have to pay for most of that with your idea, with one major difference - some random salaryman with a pistol has no chance in stopping a determined entry team. The rigger and drones may not have a low chance, but it isn't 0. Corps don't waste resources on projects that have no chance of success. |
A good rigger can have a pretty good chance. You'd be surprised how often I've noticed players not bothering to have their characters check around corners or behind desks. And, depending on the corner or desk, you can hide a massive drone with ease. I wouldn't suggest trying to hide a steel lynx behind a desk, but if the desk is big enough, a doberman is acceptable.
Also, I suspect anything guarded using the method I suggested wouldn't exactly be something important. You'd want those people to be out where everyone can see them and can see the penalty, not hidden inside your top-secret labs in the ninety-seventh subbasement. If anything, they'd be there just to annoy runners and give an extremely early warning.
| QUOTE |
| I also think you are overlooking two more factors that make this a bit unreasonable. Who is going to sit in a chair perfectly still for extended periods of time? Also, any person treated like this has a pretty good chance of turning the pistol on themselves to save themselves from starving to death. |
They get fed, watered, and they die if they move from the chair. Anyone with a very strong sense of self-preservation would stick to that chair until their legs rotted off.
| QUOTE |
| Functionally, this is not an argument that is even slightly useful for either of us. I say no, you say yes and it's not like we're all that likely to be in a game together. *shrug* On the other hand, I'm perfectly happy to play along as long as you are. |
To me, it's very useful. I've already refined it from a vague idea using cortex bombs to a complete idea using vests of C4. Now, I'm just seeing how well the idea logically works. Sometimes, you need others to test your ideas against.
If I was Soloman Salaryman and my corp OBVIOUSLY wants me dead this bad then I have one solution. Assuming that there is no way out alive, I get up and blow this warded room to shit! Screw this corp! They're idiots for giving several kilos of plastic explosives, a gun, and a location that is supposed to be worth protecting to someone they intend to kill. Open that door and wal on out, Soloman. Stick it to the man!
This is sort of the take I put on it.
'layered' wards I allow sort of.
Wards can NOT overlap... if the actual sphere/shell touches the contest and one is shattered the other probably survives and heals.
HOWEVER.
Wards can be layered BUT are sort are generally one/or the other')
Say we have a building protected by a Force 2 ward (basically just an alarm and screen from junk). You could then have a force 6 ward over your vault.
If just 'walking' around you would still possibly have to walk through 'both' anything trying to hit one or the other would only worry about the strongest.
My problem is wards cover the entire area (not surface area), then even if you are INSIDE the ward, the ward would still hamper casting to something else inside the ward.
So if the example is
'layered' wards I allow sort of.
Wards can NOT overlap... if the actual sphere/shell touches the contest and one is shattered the other probably survives and heals.
HOWEVER.
Wards can be layered BUT are sort are generally one/or the other')
Say we have a building protected by a Force 2 ward (basically just an alarm and screen from junk). You could then have a force 6 ward over your vault.
If just 'walking' around you would still possibly have to walk through 'both' anything trying to hit one or the other would only worry about the strongest.
My problem is wards cover the entire area (not surface area), then even if you are INSIDE the ward, the ward would still hamper casting to something else inside the ward.
So if the example is
| CODE |
C 2222222222 2 A 2 2 2 2 444 2 2 4B4 2 2 444 2 2222222222 |
If you were at C and trying to Cast on something at A you would need to bypass the force 2 ward.
If you were at C and trying to cast on something at B you would need to bypass the force 4 ward. (not both wards).
If you were an astral being, and 'walking around' you and tried to walk to B, you would have to overcome each barrier at the respective time; however, if you were tracking/following a ritual link/etc' to something at B, you would just need to bypass the force 4 ward.
To me the above works, keep wards from being 'overpowered' *IMO" but allows for logical layouts where some area might have additional warding, etc.
It also solves the problem that if you say area B cant have the seperate ward (since it is in the force 2 ward.... that would imply if you were at A and casting on B the ward would still hamper you (since B is protected by the ward....)
Peace
(edited to take out a bad quote link and to put /code flags in)
Wards don't hinder spells cast within them, only spells cast through them.
Unless that's a houserule...
Unless that's a houserule...
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) | ||
Looking at that illustration, it looks like it would work. But remember, since none of those wards in that illustration are encasing the entire area, it looks like it would be possible for an astrally projecting magician (or spirit in astral form) to fly over the wards. You could put one domed ward in the center, but then those would still only be passing through one ward. But for dual-natured beings that can't fly, you're right, they'd have to pass through two wards. EDIT: Unless with the "12 wards in 3d" comment, you mean there are adjacent wards acting as a roof. Still, I think flying astral forms would still only be passing through one roof ward. |
demonseed:
1) can you say the reasoning behind the intent to prohibit layering.
2)) Do astral forms (not dual-nature forms) have 'size' if so what size. (can a 'human' astral projection being 1" tall and 'slips through the cracks').
3) If 6 X*Y*1m 'walls' could be contructed to ward an area, yet not technicaly be 'inside the warded area. Besides the major drawback of extra time/anchors/etc are there other limits. (since there are cracks could some astral forms (air spirits?) possibly slip 'between' the plates', could ritual magic following a material link 'bypass' the wards since there technically are 'cracks'.
4) Especially is the answers in three above are 'no', then what reason is there to allow 6 'walls' to be errected to ward an area (with possibly wards inside) and not allow 'layered' wards. If anything wouldnt it be simpler to express it as: To make a rule that says to create a ward inside another ward, you must spend time/money/effot equal to creating the '6 wards' necessary to make a box (as opposed to a solid cube).
5) As written what happens if you try to create a ward that containts another ward (or the reverse make a ward insiude another ward). Especially the former seems possible. Say for example some archalogy suddenly decides to take the impreesive jump and ward the archology. Do they have to hunt down every single 'ward' inside and destroy them? or ?
peace
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| Wards don't hinder spells cast within them, only spells cast through them. Unless that's a houserule... |
Then why do they hinder wards 'within them'
I know the 'rules' however it does not seem logical (or balanced) to me that the ward either is a sphere (shell) in which case they could be layered. Or it is a ball (solid) in which case shouldn't it affect things from one point to the other.
If the 'ward' is a solid (and can't be layered) then from a point iside to another point inside is casting 'through' the ward (since the ward is a solid).
If a ward is a 'shell' then a 'nested' ward is not a layered ward, since the inside ward is not ''in the larger ward')
Also if you notice that my example of casting inside start with IF ... and Implies' I know what the rules state but the also seem to contradict themselves (logically if not 'mechanically')
hoo boy, okay.
Wards do not hinder spells cast within the ward enclosure, only spells cast through the walls of the ward. They are not "solid" (in as much as anything astral is solid), but they are a complex web of mana holding together the ward walls and the physical anchor's astral shadow. Disturbances to this astral structure can cause the ward to collapse, which is why the physical anchor can not move very far in relation to the ward enclosure. Similarly, a ward can not be nested inside another ward, nor can a ward be built surrounding another ward because the astral structure will not hold where there is already another ward structure present.
Wards do not hinder spells cast within the ward enclosure, only spells cast through the walls of the ward. They are not "solid" (in as much as anything astral is solid), but they are a complex web of mana holding together the ward walls and the physical anchor's astral shadow. Disturbances to this astral structure can cause the ward to collapse, which is why the physical anchor can not move very far in relation to the ward enclosure. Similarly, a ward can not be nested inside another ward, nor can a ward be built surrounding another ward because the astral structure will not hold where there is already another ward structure present.
| QUOTE |
| 1) can you say the reasoning behind the intent to prohibit layering. |
Playability. We didn't want to put in a mechanic that encouraged gamemasters and players to "stack" wards as an easy solution to astral security. We wanted to encourage careful ward planning and the idea that a single stronger ward is better than dozens of nested, weak wards. Also, we wanted to avoid a situation where players might have to spoof their way through ten nested wards and simply not be able to do it, because the astral tracking time to find multiple ward designers would not fit into the amount of time a magician can astrally project before dying.
| QUOTE |
| 2)) Do astral forms (not dual-nature forms) have 'size' if so what size. (can a 'human' astral projection being 1" tall and 'slips through the cracks'). |
I don't believe that has ever been said in the rules. My opinion is in the answer to the next question.
| QUOTE |
| 3) If 6 X*Y*1m 'walls' could be contructed to ward an area, yet not technicaly be 'inside the warded area. Besides the major drawback of extra time/anchors/etc are there other limits. (since there are cracks could some astral forms (air spirits?) possibly slip 'between' the plates', could ritual magic following a material link 'bypass' the wards since there technically are 'cracks'. |
My vote is that wards arranged this way are not a hermetic seal (sorry, couldn't avoid the pun). Meaning that it would be possible for a spirit to slip through. Not necessarily because they could shrink down, but because they could use a metaplanar shortcut. I would also personally rule that ritual magic could get through. Ancient real-life concepts of wards (which Shadowrun wards are based on) were often very specific that even the smallest gap in the ward protection would allow evil spirits, bad luck, or whatever else to get through. With ancient salt wards (where salt was poured on the earth around an evil or haunted site, if any of the salt was brushed aside so the circle wasn't complete, the ward was considered broken.
I was about to say that too, as fancy as the diagram is, nothing between any of the layers of wards is actually warded.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| My vote is that wards arranged this way are not a hermetic seal (sorry, couldn't avoid the pun). Meaning that it would be possible for a spirit to slip through. Not necessarily because they could shrink down, but because they could use a metaplanar shortcut. I would also personally rule that ritual magic could get through. |
What about projecting mages? Would endbutted wards at least provide some protection from them?
I'm not really sure I have an answer for that, because I'm not entirely sure about canon rules as far as astrally projecting mages' astral form size. The only reference I can think of is that astral forms are based on a projected self-image and therefore are probably roughly the same size as the person's physical body.
Assuming that's the case and mages can't change their astral form size (I don't think they can, but like I said, I'm not sure it's ever come up in the rules), it probably would protect against projecting mages. Though possibly the projecting mage could take a metaplanar shortcut around it too, like a spirit. Only the mage would have to undertake a metaplanar quest to do that, unlike spirits, which can just hop back and forth at will.
Assuming that's the case and mages can't change their astral form size (I don't think they can, but like I said, I'm not sure it's ever come up in the rules), it probably would protect against projecting mages. Though possibly the projecting mage could take a metaplanar shortcut around it too, like a spirit. Only the mage would have to undertake a metaplanar quest to do that, unlike spirits, which can just hop back and forth at will.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| Though possibly the projecting mage could take a metaplanar shortcut around it too, like a spirit. Only the mage would have to undertake a metaplanar quest to do that, unlike spirits, which can just hop back and forth at will. |
So merely an attempt to make it more trouble than it's worth than an absolute deterent? (Though for non-inititates, it would be an absolute, so that's still pretty good.)
I heard of a house rule that stated if one ward is 1/4 or less than the physical size of another it could be nested. The ward walls still couldn't intersect, but it allows for one room of a building to be more heavily warded than the entire building.
demonseed Elite:
Thanks for the response and it certainly seems to stop them dead.
I had taken your response to prionic6 (with the diagramed 'stacked' wards) to indicate (if 12 done as a 3d cube) to imply that the concept was sound.
You last response makes it much clearer on the intended rules, though personally any 'spirit' (whether a projecting entity or a true 'spirit') I would allow do get through the cracks (whether since they have a 'small size' or merely while in mundane terms you have to go through intervening space, that isn't necessarily true astraly. Just becasue there is a one to one mapping of 'astral' ot 'real' doesnt mean that if real you have to pass B to get to C, that astrally you have to pass B to get to C.
Though for me my house rules will be the following. To me the preserve the intent (to keep layered wards from being to hard of hassle/overpowered) yet follow closer 'currrent' beliefs and practices on wards and give slightly more flexibility without increasing the power too much (only 'scouting' and dual natured get hampered (and if this causes to much problem I would rule that ANY ward being defated in an enclosed space distrubs the matrixes enough that any weaker ward is disrupted enough to allow what ever broke through passage)
Wards can be layered although their effects (in most cases) are not cumalitive.
(To me this more accurately relfects most tradditions, since 'layered wards' are most common. Almost all traditions involve purifying and warding the entire area that the ritual is being attempted on, but often will have steonger wards at the source. (The 'room' will likely be warded to help keep out background noise/distrubance/general precautions but then the actual particapants of the ritual will enclose themslves in a stronger ward).
Ritual Magic/spirits manifesting at target X, or even a projecting person looking for 'X' merely has to overcome the strongest ward protecting the target. (since astrally A-B-C it is not necessarily required to pass B to get to C).
Now layered wards would hamper dual-natured beings and/or projecting mages/psirits that are seeking just to 'explore' or have only 'mundane' descriptions to the target.
The target is 280m thatway or I scout out the building to see if anybody is inside it.
Either of the above could require the mage to defeat each ward (and in the case of the searching if not done carefully perhaps some wards multiple times); however, if they were looking for 'something' it would be possible (if they could defeat the correct ward) to go straigth for the target provide a link of some kind (known aura, material link, etc).
Peace and thanks for the response
Thanks for the response and it certainly seems to stop them dead.
I had taken your response to prionic6 (with the diagramed 'stacked' wards) to indicate (if 12 done as a 3d cube) to imply that the concept was sound.
You last response makes it much clearer on the intended rules, though personally any 'spirit' (whether a projecting entity or a true 'spirit') I would allow do get through the cracks (whether since they have a 'small size' or merely while in mundane terms you have to go through intervening space, that isn't necessarily true astraly. Just becasue there is a one to one mapping of 'astral' ot 'real' doesnt mean that if real you have to pass B to get to C, that astrally you have to pass B to get to C.
Though for me my house rules will be the following. To me the preserve the intent (to keep layered wards from being to hard of hassle/overpowered) yet follow closer 'currrent' beliefs and practices on wards and give slightly more flexibility without increasing the power too much (only 'scouting' and dual natured get hampered (and if this causes to much problem I would rule that ANY ward being defated in an enclosed space distrubs the matrixes enough that any weaker ward is disrupted enough to allow what ever broke through passage)
Wards can be layered although their effects (in most cases) are not cumalitive.
(To me this more accurately relfects most tradditions, since 'layered wards' are most common. Almost all traditions involve purifying and warding the entire area that the ritual is being attempted on, but often will have steonger wards at the source. (The 'room' will likely be warded to help keep out background noise/distrubance/general precautions but then the actual particapants of the ritual will enclose themslves in a stronger ward).
Ritual Magic/spirits manifesting at target X, or even a projecting person looking for 'X' merely has to overcome the strongest ward protecting the target. (since astrally A-B-C it is not necessarily required to pass B to get to C).
Now layered wards would hamper dual-natured beings and/or projecting mages/psirits that are seeking just to 'explore' or have only 'mundane' descriptions to the target.
The target is 280m thatway or I scout out the building to see if anybody is inside it.
Either of the above could require the mage to defeat each ward (and in the case of the searching if not done carefully perhaps some wards multiple times); however, if they were looking for 'something' it would be possible (if they could defeat the correct ward) to go straigth for the target provide a link of some kind (known aura, material link, etc).
Peace and thanks for the response
Yeah, keep in mind that on this forum, I'm not speaking gospel or anything. When these ideas are posted, I'm mostly musing out loud to them here.
Also, I do think the ward rules are something you can tinker with in your own game. I would have liked to put one of those sidebars of variant ward rules in, but I just didn't have the word count. I came in at exactly the word count with what is there, and I'm not sure what I could have cut out of that chapter.
Also, I do think the ward rules are something you can tinker with in your own game. I would have liked to put one of those sidebars of variant ward rules in, but I just didn't have the word count. I came in at exactly the word count with what is there, and I'm not sure what I could have cut out of that chapter.
The only issue I've got with it being impossible to layer wards is the whole "hardened room" thing. As written, getting a hardened room in a complex would require 7 wards (six sides around it, being individual wards, with the center of the "box" filled with the seventh, stronger ward). It's not that I want to stack the effects or force my players to go through dozens of wards on their way to the target... I just want to be able to throw a "token" ward up over an entire location, with the actual secure spots having much heavier wards on them inside of the token ward. Tossing up seven wards to accomplish that through some act of geometric twinkage just feels silly.
I'd probably houserule to allow "pockets" to be created inside of a ward's shape.
I'd probably houserule to allow "pockets" to be created inside of a ward's shape.
Demonseed:
Totally understand the offical/not-offical.
I am free to modify my game anyway I like, even taking advice from random people off the web. If said random people have a strong insight into a developers thought process
Do you see any balance problems with treating them like say visiblity modifiers.
Wards can be layered; however only the strongest applies at any give time.
If targeting something directly you most overcome/defeat whatever the strongest ward is that would cover the target. All other wards are considered defeated if the strongest is beaten.
The only 'advantage' to multiple wards comes in hampering dual natured beings and or just 'scouting' an area.
peace and thanks
Totally understand the offical/not-offical.
I am free to modify my game anyway I like, even taking advice from random people off the web. If said random people have a strong insight into a developers thought process
Do you see any balance problems with treating them like say visiblity modifiers.
Wards can be layered; however only the strongest applies at any give time.
If targeting something directly you most overcome/defeat whatever the strongest ward is that would cover the target. All other wards are considered defeated if the strongest is beaten.
The only 'advantage' to multiple wards comes in hampering dual natured beings and or just 'scouting' an area.
peace and thanks
It was sort of interesting that you can't move them, as that is a major change from the past. It does take care of my warded full-body armor idea (snicker) but the idea of carrying around magic items that are being searched for in small warded boxes has to have been fairly common with other groups. As would had been warding things like command centers on ships, citymasters, etc.
I would suggest a metamagic that enables you to make layered wards with at least (6-initiate grade, minimum 1) meters "open space" between the walls. That way you could make better secured single rooms inside a warded building.
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