Very simply I am wondering if the loss of essense through cyber/bioware causes or should cause flaws? Can't find anything in the book about it but every one keeps talking about it.
Thanks

sure. at 0 essence you experience the flaw "death", generally speaking. (that is extremely likely to change when augmentation comes out mind you... at which point it instead pretty near turns into "the curse of becoming an NPC" most likely).

other than that, it is suggested that a person with a lot of implants may have a good reason to have the weak immune system flaw, but i think that's about it.

other than that, you have magic/resonance loss (if applicable) and the increased difficulty of casting healing spells on you. and social penalties in some situations (if you walk into a high class business meeting with two obvious cyberarms with the hands replaced by guns for example) but that's subject to DM ruling.

Don't forget that there are penalties to first aid rolls when you have a lot of implants.

I was under the impression that characters with less essence seemed less lively and more utilitarian, but I don't remember where I read that. The Sample Face Character has no magical ability or much cyberware (5.7 essence). I always thought that was to make her appear more personable. There's no game mechanic for it, though.

Obvious cyberware can also effect social modifiers. People may be suspicious (-1) or prejudiced (-2) of cybered characters or, under other social situations, cybered characters might be imposing (+1 to +3) or considered to be wielding a weapon (+2) etc. While these aren't really flaws, per se, they are effects of cyberware which could have disastrous effect.

No SR4 rules for it. Keep in mind any penalties you houserule will only make magic an even more attractive alternative.

It makes you harder to heal magically.

The idea of "cyberpsychosis" is also sometimes brought up in threads, which may be what you are talking about. The idea comes mostly from Cyberpunk2020 (another cyberpunk RPG) and perhaps cyberpunk litterature, where people with low essence starting losing touch with humanity and going a bit psychotic.

This is NOT canon SR, insofar as there are no hard rules enforcing it like in CP2020. I think there have been a few instances in SR books where it's been passingly mentionned that all cyber and no flesh make johnny a crazy boy, but that's all.

I have over the years read pretty much all of the official novels and remember several mentions of heavily cybered ind. being some what crazy. Even in the latest series they refer to a heavily Cybered individual (Bishop?) as being less than human because of his condition. Am perafrasing but I think that was the idea.

According to the SR4 book:

i think that the reason we dont really have a mechanic for too much cyberware (as long as essence is a positive number), is because its more of a roleplaying thing. it dosent affect everyone equally. its not something that happens because you got some new parts- its something that happens because you have problems dealing with the idea of having those parts.

If you apply an actual penalty for cyber, then you do two things- make it that much more difficult to play a street sam or other heavily cybered character, and make the faces avoid cyber. In the case of the sam, having a charisma 2 lets them have 1 dice of default on social skills. if you apply a chrisma penalty, then the sam needs charisma 3 to do what a non-cybered guy can do at 2... including intimidate. also if the faces avoid cyber, then we will see more face-mages/adepts/technomancers and fewer face-sam/rigger/decker

In SR3, you had a penalty to charisma for VISIBLE cyber outside of a specific category, and an increase in your signal (being easier to see by sensors). In SR4, essence includes bioware as well as cyberware, so essence loss isnt really the best scale for impact on charisma anymore.

If you want a mechanic for it, i suggest assigning a list of ware specific ratings for social impact. you take this rating, round down, and then apply it as a modifier... down with some groups, and up with others. so we could say that very common things like datajacks and cybereyes have little or no impact. you have things you can see (liek obvious cyberlimbs) that have a larger impact, things you minght see (use of atributes over racial max, detecting a synthetic limb, use of ectra IP) which have an impact only when its perceived.

Really, the only times most people will react to cyber, is when its in-your-face obvious. obvious cyberlimbs, dermal plating, inhuman ability and speed, and the weirder cosmetic stuff. if its synthetic replacements, many people will choose not to see it even if they do notice. think about if you meet someone with a disability- do you point it out, or try not to stare and avoid the topic?

I think the idea is bollocks, with one small caveat. If someone is injured and loses a hand for example, do they become less human or less in touch with others? Definitely not. So why when the lost hand can be replaced with an artificial one, do they suddenly become less human? Because it interfaces with their nervous system? How does that make any sense?
"Well, we've attached some electrodes to the nerve endings in your wrist Mr. Reeves, so I'm afraid you'll be a bit less capable of love from now on."

The only case in which I think it makes any sense is in those who trade in parts of themselves for mechanically superior parts. You could say that these people are a bit obsessed with power and do have less empathy, but the rules make no distinction for choice and many people would have valid reasons for doing this anyway.

My personal opinion is that whoever came up with this had watched Star Wars a few too many times. Saying someone who was injured or had a medical condition (probably the most common reasons for someone to have cyber or bioware in the world of 2070), is less human is just kind of offensive. I ignore it.

If you treat cyberware and essence loss as a strictly physiological thing, correct, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There's plenty of things to draw upon in SR fiction and mechanics to say that Essence loss is also harming your character's driving spirit / "soul" in some fashion, which is where the effect probably comes from.

Plus, make sure we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The essence drain on a single Cyberhand is minimal. Even hacking off the whole arm and replacing it isn't that bad. I wouldn't start insisting on a PC roleplaying this sort of thing until they get at the minimum below 2.0 essence.

Best example I've read about people with cyberware becoming detached (I don't know from where)...

If you replace your eyes, as good as the cyberware is, it's still not "your" eyes. It's like very tiny, hi-res monitors in your head, so it's almost like watching rather than seeing. You get used to it, but there's always that little sense of disconnection.

Oh yeah, I think Cybertechnology is where SR introduced mechanics for losing humanity from cyberware. It didn't seem to be very popular...

I've even copied this over into other games.

The main game where Lilith Taveril is in, she has cybereyes. Now, her cybereyes are in every way superior to the natural ones she had before. But, she envies those with natural eyes, and her subconcious disgust at having these machines in her head causes her magic to suffer. Thus, at random times, she attempts a spell and gets some random effect that happens. She simply blames it on the eyes interfering with her magic, but really, it's her.

In addition, there's also the detachment. She doesn't quite interact with people the same way and keeps a bit of distance. Again, because of this subconcious issue over the eyes.

I'm willing to bet that all of the issues with cyberwear are just that: subconcious. They're a person's inner demons manifesting themselves.

Or that all of their heavily cybered characters are less human than people who can cast fireballs or run on water.

It all depends on how you see your character. You can have a mage who feels just as detached from humanity as a heavily cybered combat machine, due to the power and abilities gained from his spells and his communiion with spirits.

I used to impose target number penalties in SR2 for sub-1 essence characters to reflect increasing loss of ability to recognize and express emotion. But in SR3 Adept powers became as good or better than cyber, so I didn't feel it was fair to impose roll penalties.
Now if an appropriate parallel can be drawn with advanced magic characters, it might be interesting and worthwhile to come up with soemthing again.

2bit, try the addiction quality. If they use magic quite a bit, it's natural to assume that the flow of power through their body can produce an effect similar to addiction after happening enough.

Well, they already face focus addiction. I'm considering making initiation without groups or ordeals more difficult, and play up the transformation aspects of each initiation. Lots of potential there.

Having a heavily augmented person is kinda like walking around with a loaded gun. Just put your self in place of a person on the street. What would you think if see a large person muscles bulging walking in a way that just seems to smooth and controlled. His eyes looking in to distance. His gaze pausing on thing that wouldn't normal be interesting.

Cybered people just don't look right. They move differently, and take notice of the world around them in different ways. It doesn't really make them less human, just not quite right.

Depending on how they are cybered up there some phycological effects, but not really related to game mechanics. Think about what you feel like putting on football or other protection. Then add that to the way you feel with a gun or large knife in your hand. Add a splash of driving over speed limit on a back rood, and a dash of standing on top of a tall building when think what would it be like if you jumped. I think that is about right.

If you were adding a -1 per point of essense lower then 6 because a character doesn't show emotion as much or seems detached, would that mean that in a Composure test, they would get a Bonus equal to the same loss they got in other social tests becuase of the fact that they don't show their fear or maybe don't even believe that whatever the cause of the test would even effect them?

I'm against any rules that sytematically make low essence PC into social pariah even if they have no obvious implants.

Such characters typically have low charisma anyway so the typical Street Sam already conform to the stereotype. If a PC want to play counter type, let him.

Invent new drawbacks and you'll just be swimming in Physads and in Uncouth PC with Charisma of 1 : ''You don't want to let me take charisma 2 and etiquette 2 and be able to get by in the social aspect of the game? You want to add a penalty on my meager four die because I'm cybered and make me virtually hopeless? Fine, I'll tank Charisma and social skills altogether and take Uncouth on top of it. If you gonna force me into being a jerk no matter what, I might as well go all out and fill out on BP.''.

With such a rule, virtually all fighter type PCs will end up either adepts or Sammie with zero investment in the social aspect.

I agree. Saying that low essence tends to cause detachment and alienation in a large number of individuals is a nice fluff justification for why many street sams have low charisma and social skills. The real reason is, of course, that they're being played by munchkins. The stereotype is already there, and it's already represented in the game world, so there's no reason to punish those who want to break it.

So, at what essence do you start to fail the Voight-Kampf test?

I would agree that if you start to impose penalties on people for having to much cyberware, then you should also penalize those with to much magic. Why? Because they get that elitist attitude that all those "mundanes" aren't worth having to bother about or that "mundane" laws shouldn't apply to someone as "supremely powerful" as they are.

I would say overly-cybered characters might have some social problems at first, but after they adjust to their gear, they are normal again. I just recently got contacts after wearing glasses for over 12 years. With my contacts in it doesn't feel right and I feel that what I see is kind of off, almost to clear. I think that's how someone with cyber-eyes would feel the first couple of months but after awhile they would get used to it and adjust. Maybe they don't blink but they retrain themselves to so other people don't get freaked out.

I dislike the idea that cyber gives mental problems to each and every person who gets it but there would be some people who would have problems because of it, how do these two negative qualities sound?

Cyberpsycho 10

When a character with this quality is in a high stress situation as judged by the GM he must make Cha+Will (6-essence rounded down) test or react violently to the situation. Each round after this he can make the same test to return to "normal", the threshold drops by 1 for each round that passes. The Character can choose his own targets but must target living creatures if possible.

Detached 5

The Character takes a penelty to all social skill tests equal to 1+essense loss. Only a charcter with some essence loss may take this quality.

Do they sound about right?

Ophis: I was just thinking the same thing. Those qualities look just fine to me.

I'd actually even remove the qualifier about needing essence loss. 5 bp for a -1 to all social skills seems about right to me.

Hmm.. thinking along the same lines, here's another idea... just a list of qualities a character could pick up as they lose essence:

Essence

Down to 5 - Nothing
Down to 4 - You understand how implants change someone's outlook, even if they don't yet. +1 die in social situations empathizing with others with implants.
Down to 3 - +2 dice to tests to resist one's conscience. (lol, conscience)
Down to 2 - -1 to character's racial Charisma maximum.
Down to 1 - -1 to all social skills involving empathy (cumulative).
Down to .5 - Character gains the Weak Immune System negative quality. If the character already has this quality, suggested replacements would be an allergy, or increasing the weak immune system penalty at GM discretion.
Down to .2 - -1 to all social skills involving empathy (cumulative).
Below .2 - Cyberpsycho (Ophis' quality seems good here)

holy crap, im finally Moving Target

Why do some people think that cyberware needs all these new penalties? Isn't it bad enough that you're capped in your potential (Awakened characters can always Initiate, but in addition to a skill cap and an attribute cap, mundanes have an unarguably Essence cap)? Isn't it bad enough that it costs you money (including the character points that entails, at generation) to get implanted? Isn't it bad enough you've got to arrange both the connections/availability and the downtime to try and get more 'ware in game (if you've got the cash)? Isn't it bad enough cybered up characters are harder to heal?

Why completely gimp them in social situations, too? All you're doing is cutting off another option when it comes to broadening their character's horizons -- "sorry, can't be a likeable street sam in the long run, so don't bother trying."

Why not just leave the low Essence RP to...well...RP? Let 'em run across the occasional racist who, when confronted with visible and obvious cyberware, reacts to them negatively (just like people react to metahumans from time to time), and leave well enough alone otherwise?

Likewise, i don't see why my Fighter/Face char should be punished that way only because he has 0,01 essence left.

I'd probably switch to an adept with 20+ dice on social tests if my SL tried that one on me.

I'm expecting some cyber-pschosis rules from Arsenal. Then again, I'm expecting a lot from Arsenal....

For one, nothing I just wrote would make even a heavily cybered individual completely gimp in social situations (unless of course they were *really* low essence and snapped). But likable, no, generally a heavily cybered person's detachment works against that, especially with the uncybered who can't really relate. If there's one thing a heavily cybered person is not, it's endearing and full of life. But that doesn't mean that social avenue is completely closed to them or others aren't open to them. They may still be gorgeous people who get laid weekly, admirable figures that command respect, or imposing creeps who scare the crap out of people. Friends and loved ones are more hard to come by, though, and the -1 max Cha I included does mean their natural ability is more limited. So they can't be the best at social skills, but they can still be good. If you see Essence loss as the primary advancement route for all mundanes, I can see how it would be a big problem.

There's nothing wrong with leaving it to RP, but I think it's fun to think of tangible effects as well.

And like I said before, the only way I would do something like this would be if I did something parallel for awakened characters.

I'm much more in favor of rules like negative qualities, which allow you to pick and choose, rather than forced penalties.

I mean, from a metagame PoV, you've invested a lot of resources in Cyber. You made a choice to pursue that, rather than other things, so you gave up advantages.

And really, half the fun in playing Shadowrun is chroming up, innit?

Well, on some other board, I read the suggestion of adapting the system from Unknown Armies to represent the psychic trauma that can result from stress on different parts of a human's mind. I'd guess most folks in Shadowrun would run around with a few Hardened and Failed notches in each category.

CP2020 had Empathy as a stat, which was essentially Charisma (it also had Attractiveness as another stat, just for the record). For every 10 "humanity loss" you took, you lost a point of Empathy.

What it also had was therapy, which allowed you to regain a significant portion of your lost Empathy, if you cared to. Basically, you could cram an absolutely incredible amount of 'ware into a guy before he cracked if he started out fairly in-touch with his fellow humans, and got his head shrunk on a regular basis.