Okay, now find me something that doesn't state "feel free to houserule if you wish." Because with that as your argument, then none of the rules in the book actually apply.

I used this site:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m16.htm

I find it tends to be much more accurate when it comes to weapons in U.S. service, though it's still known to be off from time to time.

Most of the reasoning with drones is the old "bigger is stronger" logic. Plus, there's less of a chance of hitting something important when you shoot a large one.

I think the crime and punishments thing is a case of "use your common sense." The Permits is another one where they want you to either be knowledgeable about it or waste time researching it. SR4 isn't a game I suggest starting new groups off with, as I doubt they want to spend most of the first session trying to figure out what houserules to use and writing up an entire setting.

A Passkey would essentially be the form factor of an access card with a computer interfaces on it and a lot more electronics inside. Not big at all. The sequencer would be smaller, as it connects to the internal electronics, it doesn't need the form factor of the card. (Neither of them, or the typical maglock electronics bypass, would actually work against the kind of access control systems that corporations really use, but it's a useful game mechanic.)

For the reality of Traveller equipment, how about the 50,000 ton computers that required a gigawatt of power? Ok, you weren't talking about their ship design stuff.

Well everything he said is reasonable from within the context of being him, but it doesn't satisfy me I'm afraid for the following reasons.

For one, many of us do not have the knowledge to make a judgement call on weights for these things and looking them up online could actually be a fair amount of work for some things. To illustrate, none of the SR assault rifles actually exist. Firstly I have to find out existing assault rifles of which the only one I've actually heard of is the AK-47. But is that light? Heavy? Typical? I'd have to go digging to find this, and then I'd have to start googling the weights on them and judge an average. Worse for pistols as I don't think real world catalogues are conveniently divided into Light and Heavy categories. As to vaguely described items like Assault Rifles... How do I know what a modern day equivalent is?

One person (the game designer) could have looked them up and made these decisions, instead hundreds of people have to repeat the work separately. The real issue is when this comes up in the middle of a session, which of course when it is most likely.

As to the question of rules lawyers. it isn't always a case of a player trying to take advantage of a GM. Sometimes the GM just wants to make a fair ruling. And in the case of rules lawyers trying to prove the GM wrong, well I think the absence of weights makes things a lot harder than otherwise. Worse than a rules lawyer is the "expert". If a player comes in who knows a lot about guns (or whatever), I'll have a lot harder time telling him that he's wrong when I suspect he can't carry everything he says he can if there are no weights I can point out. I suspect the reverse situation, of a GM stridently insisting that Panther Cannons weigh more than published and the player can't carry one is a lot less likely. When things are vague, you get disputes.

It comes back down to this. If they are there, then those who don't care can ignore them. If they are not, then those who don't need them can't pretend they are. In terms of cost benefit, I don't think it is a huge amount of work for the designers to either guesstimate some numbers or for them to squeeze them onto the equipment tables. But the negative consequence is greater than this for many of us.

Now we have already had one big thread on whether we do or don't need published weights. While people are free to say that they don't need them, they're not free to tell myself or others that we're lying when we say we do. Hence starting this thread to get some numbers. I've read everyone's comments here and I'll be adjusting the first numbers a little inline with them. Particularly grateful for the work put in on drones. Update shortly, and thanks for all contributions.

Which of the weights, apart from the SMG (which would probably be better at 2.25kg or 2.5kg, especially when the Machine Pistols are in their own category), do you feel are too light? Considering, for example, that the M4 rifles (carbines) weigh in as much under 3kg as the new M16 rifles weigh over it.

Who wants to bring an unloaded gun on a shadowrun?



That line made my day.

I always liked the idea of the glow-in-the dark contact lenses with Low Light or Thermographic. After all, you have to SEE the image with your non-low-light eyes.