Howdy all. Long post here...

I have a slight dilemma. I'm making a new character (400bp) and the last time I played SR was 2nd edition. With the new systems in place, I was hoping to get some veteran advice on complex character creation.

The real difficulty lies in that the character will have to fufill three functions for my group. We have a ton of combat and a ton of magic, but no real matrix functionality and no face man to speak to Mr. Johnson or social engineer a security guard. Here are the areas I need the character to excell (or at least be useful at)

1) Hacking - This character will be our primary expert in the matrix. Technomancer or Hacker makes no difference.

2) Social - This character is the conversational pointman. If nothing else, this is the guy that will do the speaking before the shooting, or try the diplomatic option before the destructive one. I love conversational and dialogue roleplaying, so I'm looking to be "that guy"

3) Stealth - There is a quite attractive but shy girl in our gaming group (playing a stealthy character), and when the GM seperates the group into the espionage characters and the face melters, I'll get to roleplay with her if i'm compitent in that area. (note : I really don't care if he's good in combat or not)

For the experts out there the question is this : what are some essential starting skills for a character with these considerations? Is there anything that overlaps well or fufills several roles with a single cost? Is there a cheap way of being able to handle a fight with offensive minmaxers without having to blow all my points in combat abilities?

I can likely get away with exceptional hacking, and decent conversation (because I'll still be better than everyone else), but I'm still only about 1/2 through the creation process, so I want to have an understanding of what is effective and why.


edit : spelling > me

Definitely go for Hacker and not Techomancer. Technos are karma whores and therefore not such great multi-taskers.

Hacking is a pretty easy ability to incorporate into a face/sneak character. Hacking unlike technomancers don't rely on stats for being able to hack, there are builds of hackers with a 1 logic which are very effective. (do a search for the 0 point on attributes contest) The biggest point costs for a hacker is money and skills, you'll probably need 70k to get the best stock deck and all the programs you'll need, likewise you'll also probably want both electronics and hacking skillgroups.

Face is also fairly easy, you only need a decent charisma and the influence skillgroup, if you add tailored pheremones, you've got a very good face.

Stealth is also reasonably easy, there's no real cyber available for it, so it's just a few points in the Stealth group (or just infiltration if your running out of points) and a decent agility should be all you need. A stealth suit is armor that adds to your stealthyness, and is useful for being sneaky.

Overall hacking will probably be the most point expensive portion of your character since it requires both gobs of money and two seperate skillgroups. The other two just tend to require one attribute and a skillgroup.

Edit: Yeah what moon-hawk said, don't go TM, it's a serious BP and karma sink.

Jack of all trades, master of none...

You may want to consider gettin Skillwires. They are pretty much made for people who want tons of skills without excelling at them.

Hm. I think it might be possible to be proficient in those areas, and probably have a little skill in fighting as well.
You could play a cybered mundane or abuse the adept rules to achieve those goals... but I think I have to think about it some more .

Agreed. Hacker > Techno if you're trying to be mutlipurpose.
Basically, you'll want the Electronics, Cracking, Influence and Stealth skill groups.
Picking up a few individual skills to round him out, I would suggest Dodge, Unarmed Combat, and a firearms skill (pistols?)

Definatly looking at a skill-heavy character.

You might want to juggle the numbers and consider getting skillwires. Then, when you need a hacker, load in a rating 3 Hacking skillsoft, and a rating 3 Cybercombat skillsoft. When you need someone to be the face, load up Negotiation and Con, when you wanna tag along with Hotty McShyness, load up Infiltration + Shadowing.

Course, the cyber and those 'softs are expensive - and just might cost as many BP as it would take to just be good at them, but at least as a hacker (as opposed to a technomancer) you have almost no use for your essence.

I'm with Backgammon.

Buy a highish charisma. Then get skillwires for either your stealth or your conversation.

If you are okay with abuse, physical adept, magic 4 or so, then take 2 points of essence. Put the other points in to Kinesics, and improved ability (non-combat skill).

Consider rifle as your combat skill. You're not going to be super-combative, but you want to contribute to fights. You're going to want to spend some time stationary to do your hacking. All these things, to me, spell sniper.
And if you're going to be sneaky and a B&E type, you might want Gymnastics over Dodge, it's up to you.

Hmm. Good to know. Is there a particular race suited to this build? I was thinking elf, may need the points elsewhere ><

edit : HottieMcShyness is the greatest name ever.

Personally, I would go human. Cheap on the BP - and that bonus point of edge will help you on any of the various things you want to do (just not very often). Then again. I always go human.

I second the motion for human. Edge helps out everything you do, which is ideal for a jack-of-all-trades (or at least multifunction) character. Save on BPs, 'cause this character will need them.

edit: Although, if you've really got your heart set on a particular metatype, by all means play that. Any metatype can be any role, if done correctly.

Edge should be more than the minimum. When sneaking in, be it physical or virtual, the chance to repeat a bad roll and thus avoid notice is pretty useful.

Edit: And edge lets you repeat that roll when you were trying to lie your way out...

Definite non-expert Devil's advocate here. Consider Elfness if you want to twink your Agility and Charisma higher for skill tests.

If I understand the mechanics correctly the average or above average Agility Elf + Enhanced Articulation + Muscle Toner (2) should allow you to default on many flavors of combat without having to invest in combat skills. And the average Charisma Elf + Tailored Pheromones (3) should be able to default through many Social tests...

Just saying.

Hacking and socializing are an ok synergy; the only bad thing I can think of is that youre at a bit of a tactical disadvantage when dealing with Mr. J, as this really is a good opportunity for hacker tricks and you'll be unable to do much while looking your employer in the eye.

Forgery is where the real synergy of hacking and socializing is, and sets you up for good disguise and con based stealth.

see if you can get:
Influence skill group
Electronics skill group
Cracking skill group
Forgery
Infiltration
Disguise

Remember to pick up language skills or skillsofts since your social skills are limited by them.

Blandness is the perfect quality to have, as well as human-looking if it applies. Consider the Combat Paralysis quality too.

A charming character who stays close to the action as opposed to sitting in a corner hacking and sniping is sure to win you more RL points with Hottie McShyness if you want to go that route.

I like the fact he is making a character that is stealth proficant so he can hang with the quite attractive but shy girl in his gaming group you go man

Hey I'm all for him going for it heck most guys I know get married and then there are problems with them going to play.

At least he found one that likes to play that will help cut down on arguments and if she gets really pissed she can just kill his character in game that maybe a way to keep the marriage healthy.

As a (sorta) newbie female gamer who might one day have to handle in-game wooing, I'm actually curious about Miss McShyness. Please, tell me more!

EDIT: God, asking that question makes me feel like some girl at a slumber party.

<Hugs a pink frilly pillow to herself and leans in expectantly towards Whorbital>

Giggity-giggity-goo. Allright.

/blush

You know, when I was making this post I honestly considered leaving the explanation of why I wanted stealth out (I was going to say something about perhaps liking it in previous games ot the fact I play a WoW rogue or something of the like). Guess I'm glad I kept it true to life ^^

She's younger than me by about 4 years (26 vs 22) and heavily into the standard attractive geek girl interests; online gaming (WoW), console rpg, penny arcade, tabletop RPG, anime etc. (I think she also reads the Bleach manga, so double bonus points and she wore a fruit fzker t-shirt when I saw her the first time making it a triple word score.) In appearance, she looks like an early Christina Ricci (when she was 18 or so) minus a foot of height (and about 20 pounds less), with short cut mahogany red (dyed) hair. I'd love to speak more about her personality, humor, or even eye color, but I have only heard her speak twice and she rarely looks me in the eye the times we talked.

As for the character, I'm using all the suggestions in this thread as they are simply perfect for what I'm hoping to acheive. Focus on decent attributes with a ton of skillwire to help with each facet. Though I have some mechanics questions,

1) Is pretending to be someone else considered part of disguise? For example, I can forge the ID of a security Guard, and disguise myself to look like him, but whould i stil use the skill to act like the guard would? or is that kind of social manipulation influence based?

2) Is the perk that adds to your initial interaction with people worth the investment? (edit : first impression is the perk). It seems the majority of social engineering is done to a police officer, guard, receptionist, ganger, etc. rather than to characters repeated. As a former con artist, it might be worth my time, but that is all theorycraft atm.

Glad ya'll are enjoying the thread. I'll post back once I've fleshed out the character some, and again after our first session on Monday



edit : oh and if by some odd chance our DM happens to read this board and can pick one of us out from these descriptions, please for the love of god don't say anything. Beer and pizza will floweth in payment for your silence! /shyalso

edit edit : also, to the potential female gamers who may one day experience "in game wooing", remember one thing about your standard cookie cutter gaming guy. He is rather oblivious to signs and will generally be too reserved or self-conscious to do anything if he does pick up on them, and he will also be facing competetion and/or scorn from the other gaming members if he is too foreword. Getting a ride to the game and asking him to give you a ride home is an excellent way to have some easy to explain and low obligation alone time to break the ice.

That being said, it is also VERY easy to string a guy along. If you do not want their advances, for the love of cthulu don't be anything other than generally friendly. Give an inch and we'll follow you for miles.

How's this build seed look:

(385 pts)

Ork (20 pts)
Adepts (5 pts)

B 4
S 3
A 5
R 3

I 4
C 4
L 3
W 3

(160 pts)

E 3
M 3

(40 pts)

Skills:
Cracking Group 4
Electronics Group: 3
Influence Group: 4
Stealth Group: 2

(130 pts)

Resources: 30 pts

Adepts Powers:

Improved etiquette +2 (.5 pp)
Improved Negotiation +2 (.5 pp)
Improved Hacking (+2) (.5 pp)
Improved Data Search (+1) (.25 pp)
Improved Disguise (+1) (.25 pp)
Kinestics 2 (1pp)

This gives you 12 dice for etiquette and negotiation, 10 dice for con, usually 11 dice for hacking (it's program level + hacking, isn't it?), 7 dice for infiltration, 7? dice for disguise

The 30BP of resources should be able to get you all the programs at rating 6, a lvl 4 agent, and a rating 5 commlink. Since you don't need any cyberware and no weapons, you can skimp on most everything else.

Add in some negative qualities for a bit of bonus BP so you can get a combat skill (unarmed or pistols) and a few other skills and contacts and you can cover all three bases.

The human version of this build loses a point of strength and a point of body for the same price point.

Don't forget cyber or bioware to boost that Agility stat. It'll help with stealthiness and beef up those weak combat abilities you don't care about.

First Impression is one hundred percent worth it on this build. Ideally, you won't have to con the same guy twice

In this case, you're better off playing a human than anything else. Less prejudice and fewer points. Playing a metahuman is basically an excuse to spend more than 200 BP on your Attributes, but you need those points for skills a whole lot more.

Don't forget to work those negative qualities to get some points back - although for a non magic using human hacker I'm hard pressed at the moment to figure out just which ones might work for you . . .

I had a player once who took the double-essense lost negative quality, and played a mage who would never willingly get cyberware....


... since I warned the players that any negative qualities would come up....


... let's just say.... he got some cyberware... and it cost him twice as much essence.



He made a new, less-cheesy character shortly afterwards.

Of course, since you asked about min/maxing... let the discussion of negative-qualities-that-don't-actually-impact-you-in-any-way continue. Just be forewarned that if you intend to try them in a real game, and your DM has any sense at all, he'll either say no, or make sure something appropriatly negative happens to you.

Big edge. You want a big edge because if you don't specialize you will often need a bit of luck to pull off the big challenges.

With a human, it's easy to get edge 5 or even 6.

If you are good at roleplaying you can convince the GM to refill it semi-regularly. And with this much edge, you can be better than a low edge specialist when it really counts. Just try to use some good planning so that not every roll are life and death.

Addictions are fun!

So are allergies. For something that's kinda uncommon, I recommend penicillin. I happen to be allergic to that, IRL.

Yeah. Mod/unc allergy and Moder addiction get you 20 points, and they are bad, but not *that* bad.

Low pain tolerance isn't bad if you aren't planning to be in combat much. Incompetent in something that you find flavorful is nice (I tend to pick two things for one flaw, just to be fair).

Negative Qualities to Consider

SINner - No one ever said you have to take a SIN for the UCAS. There's all kinds of other options, and as a stealthy hacker type, you're the least likely to get you photo and biometrics put out on the wire. Wear a mask, give yourself a good scrubbing before runs (See the opening sequence of Gattaca for what I mean. Really, all runners should do this as a matter of course.), and try not to bleed on anything. Also, have one, shitty comlink with you real SIN, and your good hacking com unregistered.

Incompetant (Dodge) - Now, this may sound kind of horrible, but, if you really plan on doing all in your power to avoid melee, which all non-melee runners should, and you have the Gymnastics skill, you can come out OK by using Gymnastic Dodge instead of Full Dodge. The down side, I think Gymnastic Dodge only works on Ranged or Melee, not both at the same time like Full Dodge.

Incompetant (First Aid) - Hopefully one of the mages will be able to put people back togeather.

Addiction - You know, nothing says that you can't have more than one Addiction (I think, I might be wrong). Zen is dirt cheap and only last 1d6x10 minutes with no after effects. It's the perfect way to relax after a long night of coding. Novacoke has some side effects, but you can live with them in an emergency, provided you aren't getting mana bolted into oblivion at the time. And really, without a mage counter spelling for you, there is no really good defense against Manabolt for mundanes (Excpet maybe a really high Edge score).

Weak Immune System - Easily over looked, but not too bad for it's points, and anyone with cyberware has an excuse to take it. Just avoid disease carrying vermin.

That's all I can think of for now. I'm at work so i don't have the book with me.

Mild Common Allergy to sunlight - Point I burn easily and am sensitive to bright light. thus the reason I wear long pants and shirts when I go out I have a special pair of sunglasses that took 4 days soaking in the tint to get them dark enough.

This gives you a 10 point flaw and is really just an annoyance should your gm decide to try to use your flaw against you. You could also go moderate and that bumps you to a 15 point flaw but could be a bit more troublesome thought not deadly.

Just some thoughts for ya

Metasigil: Post prices for drugs!

Allergy Sunlight just seems like such a pain to me, though. Your GM might well simply rule that the glasses don't help, and then you're at -2 during the day.

The goggles, they do nothing!

Cool man, glad you dug the forgery and con angle. This guy should have a really high Edge like others have said. Edge helps with everything, so it's good for multitasking characters, but it's *really* important for hackers and stealth users who risk defeat if detected.

Get First Impression and Blandness. They're the hallmark of con artists. The perfect con man is immediately likeable and instantly forgettable.

I would strongly advise against flaws that make you memorable, like an allergy to a common substance. Anything that makes you visibly uncomfortable to others in social encounters needs to be avoided.

I hope you'll take my advice again and get Combat Paralysis. Combat Paralysis is the PERFECT FLAW for you. Seriously. It's genius:

1. It's 20 points
2. The flaw is not as bad as it sounds. You're not a combat character, and your team already has lots of firepower. You don't need to go first. If it's ever critical that you do go first, well, that's why you're getting a big Edge!
3. it's a good roleplay flaw that humanizes your charcter. And it's sure to come up, unlike shellfish.
4. - and this is the genius part - It creates additional contrast between yourself and the combat monsters. Instead of being gray against their black, you are now white against their black. Savvy?

besides, this is SR4 and he's not a mage. he could be wearing glasses that are literally opaque as long as they have an image link =D

Hey all. Here are the prices for most of the drugs, as requested.

Hyper- 180Y
Jazz- 40Y
Kamikaze- 50Y
Long Haul- 500Y
Psyche- 500Y
Bliss- 15Y
Cram- 20Y
Nitro- 100Y
Novocoke- 20Y
Zen- 5Y

My personal favorites are: Psyche, expensive but no side effects and great for Mages; Zen, cheap as dirt, doesn't last long, and no side effects afterward; Cram, great for wireless gangers that you want to beef up a bit; Novacoke, a constant reminder that at it's heart, Shadowrun is the future of the 1980s. And remember kids, the "real" combat drugs are just not worth it if your not disposable prisioner-soldier with nothing to loose.

Not to side-rail the discussion. Metasigil, could you reference your price list for the drugs? (I don't recall seeing any list in the SR4 BB) Much appreciation in advance.

It's not in any SR4 sourcebook; the list Metasigil posted is from Man and Machine.

Oh, and I found that out from this thread here, whence Meta lifted the list.

Depending on what skills the girl has hardware might help, I believe it's in the electronics group. Used for bypassing maglocks without hacking.

And the stealth group has infiltration, shadowing and disguise I believe. Depends if you're interested in shadowing at all, it can be used for avoiding tails as well remember.