Full Version: Arsenal is coming....
i didnt say this but Arsenal is coming in Nov.... Augmentation is coming Jan (or so) and Unwired will be GenCon next summer. There will be several resource books between now and then including Corporate Enclaves, Emergence, etc
This arsenal date is very solid. The others are good but not completely solid dates.
dog from DragonCON
Hmmmm... Uncertainty of Outcome vs. Certainty of Moderately Bad Outcome. Two month delay for Arsenal? *sigh*
Thanks for posting this, though.
Ahh the wonderful concept of projected shipping dates that have a tendency to evaporate.
hmm, this looks a bit like a carpetbomb of SR4 books! 
i dont have the money for this kind of shoping spree, yet...
i dont have the money for this kind of shoping spree, yet...
Wow, at that rate they'll have SR5 out before 2008
| QUOTE (dog_xinu) |
| This arsenal date is very solid. |
Ahem.
...November?
Just in time for the Christmastide shopping rush.
Yes Virginia, there still may yet be a Santa Claws (just hope his name doesn't begin with an "L")
Just in time for the Christmastide shopping rush.
Yes Virginia, there still may yet be a Santa Claws (just hope his name doesn't begin with an "L")
| QUOTE (Union Jane @ Sep 2 2006, 05:09 PM) | ||
Ahem. |
dog_xinu, did Rob say that at a seminar? Unless you got it straight from him, I wouldn't call it "solid."
Please give your source for releases, Dog_xinu.
Even if Rob said it I wouldnt bet on it, hes not a fortune teller. On the offical SR page they have posted release dates many times only to move them back, again, and again. Even after books have been sent to the printers they have been postponed. The best thing to do is play the game, enjoy the game and when you get an email from an online store that you are on the mailing list of or you see the book on the shelf buy it, play with it, enjoy it, then do the same for each and every book to come. Youll keep your hair that way.
or just spend time on dumpshock. that's how i find out when the new books are actually available =D (PDF, that is... physical copies seem to get to some places before others).
| QUOTE |
| Please give your source for releases, Dog_xinu. |
the fanpro shadowrun guy at DragonCON. He told me where exactly the internal status was of Aresnal and the timeline for all the others. But like most things the farther the timeline item is out the more shakey it is. He was very firm, almost aggressively firm on the aresnal date.
Personally if I was going to make up dates, it would be this month, next month, the month after insead of the next year. Like most of you, I want them now.
| QUOTE (dog_xinu) | ||
the fanpro shadowrun guy at DragonCON. He told me where exactly the internal status was of Aresnal and the timeline for all the others. But like most things the farther the timeline item is out the more shakey it is. He was very firm, almost aggressively firm on the aresnal date. Personally if I was going to make up dates, it would be this month, next month, the month after insead of the next year. Like most of you, I want them now. |
The guys I was speaking with didnt have a name tag on (nor would have expected one) so I dont know his name. I was told he was the "shadowrun expert" here onsite.
Hmm... well it doesn't really matter where in the timeline something is, there's still no way to be certain when something is coming out.
Let's consider Augmentation. It's mostly reprints updated to the new rules. The work on that is practically finished before it starts. We're looking at a document that is in total ~100,000 words or so, and it's probably going to be like Street Magic in that it is split like 8 ways. So really, each person is writing like 13,000 words. For those of you still in college, that's five 10 page essays if you double-space it all. So that's the equivalent of the first 4 weeks of a standard Lit courseload. So the writing itself is going to take what, a month? Less? And it's been "in the pipe" since when?
Heck, it's a good bet that a substantial portion of the writing on Augmentation is done already and the rest of it couldn't possibly take more than 4 weeks to put out if the book went into crunch time. Nevertheless, we aren't being told "it'll be out in 2 months" despite the fact that obviusly it could be if all it needed was "to be written". But that's not what it needs. It needs to have art solicited and drawn, it needs to have distribution channels worked out, etc. Noone knows how long those things are goning to take, because they are contingent on events outside of FanPro.
I mean consider, what do people want out of Augmentation?
Right, there are conversions on the web right now for almost all of that - so it could be at the printer in digital format like tomorrow. But it's not going to be, because there's more to it than just the rules and the fluff. And yet, those are really the only things that FanPro can prodce themselves.
-Frank
Let's consider Augmentation. It's mostly reprints updated to the new rules. The work on that is practically finished before it starts. We're looking at a document that is in total ~100,000 words or so, and it's probably going to be like Street Magic in that it is split like 8 ways. So really, each person is writing like 13,000 words. For those of you still in college, that's five 10 page essays if you double-space it all. So that's the equivalent of the first 4 weeks of a standard Lit courseload. So the writing itself is going to take what, a month? Less? And it's been "in the pipe" since when?
Heck, it's a good bet that a substantial portion of the writing on Augmentation is done already and the rest of it couldn't possibly take more than 4 weeks to put out if the book went into crunch time. Nevertheless, we aren't being told "it'll be out in 2 months" despite the fact that obviusly it could be if all it needed was "to be written". But that's not what it needs. It needs to have art solicited and drawn, it needs to have distribution channels worked out, etc. Noone knows how long those things are goning to take, because they are contingent on events outside of FanPro.
I mean consider, what do people want out of Augmentation?
- Fixed Cyberlimb rules?
- Cyberware replacement rules?
- Disease Rules?
- Old favorite Cyberware (like the Move by Wire)?
- Cyberzombie Rules?
- Old Favorite Bioware (Chloroplasts)?
- New toys for 2070 (Cybertechnology brought us the Move b Wire, Man and Machine brought us the Router....)?
Right, there are conversions on the web right now for almost all of that - so it could be at the printer in digital format like tomorrow. But it's not going to be, because there's more to it than just the rules and the fluff. And yet, those are really the only things that FanPro can prodce themselves.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| And it's been "in the pipe" since when? |
The back and forth about how the rules should work as well as the ensuing playtesting can take a great deal of time. In addition, this is not a 10 page college essay, which means that it has to be repeatedly edited to a certain degree of polish. Finally, how many FanPro staffers are deticated to purely Shadowrun and don't work on other FanPro titles like Battletech, Degenisis, and Das Schwarze Auge (I want to say the english title is The Dark Eye)?
This also doesn't take into account "behind the scenes" duties that aren't related to developing a product but interfere with it, such as attending Cons, making arrangements with printers and distributers, quality control when they get the books from the printers, advertising, etc.
Finally it's always been FASA's policy to determine their product lineup far in advance, and I believe this tradition carried over into FanPro ...
So I'm not surprised at how long it's taking for Arsenal and friends. I just hope it's as good or better than Cannon Companion.
Ok I got the perfect idea to solve all the problems First we need a billion dollars not a problem as Bill Gates does own a small protion of the Shadowrun product line.
Next we buy or build a state of the art printing facility and hire 250 people to run it.
Then pay off a couple of the top distrubitors to be sure when the books are ready they will be sent out immeadatly.
Lastly we hire new staff to work on the books 50 as writers, 50 as editors, 50 as proof readers, 50 as play testers, 50 as convention support (I'll work here), 50 as final editers.
See simple now all we need is the money hey Mr. Gates have I got an idea for you...........
Next we buy or build a state of the art printing facility and hire 250 people to run it.
Then pay off a couple of the top distrubitors to be sure when the books are ready they will be sent out immeadatly.
Lastly we hire new staff to work on the books 50 as writers, 50 as editors, 50 as proof readers, 50 as play testers, 50 as convention support (I'll work here), 50 as final editers.
See simple now all we need is the money hey Mr. Gates have I got an idea for you...........
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| Hmm... well it doesn't really matter where in the timeline something is, there's still no way to be certain when something is coming out. Let's consider Augmentation. It's mostly reprints updated to the new rules. The work on that is practically finished before it starts. We're looking at a document that is in total ~100,000 words or so, and it's probably going to be like Street Magic in that it is split like 8 ways. So really, each person is writing like 13,000 words. For those of you still in college, that's five 10 page essays if you double-space it all. So that's the equivalent of the first 4 weeks of a standard Lit courseload. So the writing itself is going to take what, a month? Less? And it's been "in the pipe" since when? Heck, it's a good bet that a substantial portion of the writing on Augmentation is done already and the rest of it couldn't possibly take more than 4 weeks to put out if the book went into crunch time. Nevertheless, we aren't being told "it'll be out in 2 months" despite the fact that obviusly it could be if all it needed was "to be written". But that's not what it needs. It needs to have art solicited and drawn, it needs to have distribution channels worked out, etc. Noone knows how long those things are goning to take, because they are contingent on events outside of FanPro. I mean consider, what do people want out of Augmentation?
-Frank |
You could sort of say the same about Street Magic to quite a degree. It covers a lot of old ground. And yet I was very impressed with it and can see that there has been a lot of thought and testing behind it. Maybe this is partially because it's a refinement of previous versions, but it still rates very highly on the scale of game supplements. I sincerely hope that Augmentation is as good.
That said, why is all the artwork and printing such like outside FanPro's control? Do they outsource the actual publishing & formatting to another group or are they actually producing it on behalf of someone else, or what? I sense I've missed something, here.
as i understand it, Fanpro makes games. they are not publishers, they are not printers, and they are not distributers.
essentially, there's like 2 (maybe 3?) people who actually work for Fanpro, and everyone else (including most of the writers, developers, etc) are actually freelancers contracted as needed. they don't have the time, or the resources to handle every aspect of physical production of the books. quite frankly, assuming they did have the time and money needed, i would much rather they spend it on keeping the bills payed (thus insuring they'll be around later) and developing better games.
honestly, i can't really see any way it would benefit us, as gamers, if fanpro did all the printing/publishing, distributing, etc... chances are, they'd still have problems (heck, the companies that are responsible for printing, distributing, etc have problems, and they are devoted to those specific aspects entirely. imagine if Fanpro, with it's handful of employees, tried to take over that part!), so we wouldn't see the books any sooner.
but of course, i may be wrong about all that =D
essentially, there's like 2 (maybe 3?) people who actually work for Fanpro, and everyone else (including most of the writers, developers, etc) are actually freelancers contracted as needed. they don't have the time, or the resources to handle every aspect of physical production of the books. quite frankly, assuming they did have the time and money needed, i would much rather they spend it on keeping the bills payed (thus insuring they'll be around later) and developing better games.
honestly, i can't really see any way it would benefit us, as gamers, if fanpro did all the printing/publishing, distributing, etc... chances are, they'd still have problems (heck, the companies that are responsible for printing, distributing, etc have problems, and they are devoted to those specific aspects entirely. imagine if Fanpro, with it's handful of employees, tried to take over that part!), so we wouldn't see the books any sooner.
but of course, i may be wrong about all that =D
FanPro is a publisher, not a printer, and not just a game "design house"" or something like that.
Publishing is a process, not a single act.
Publishing is a process, not a single act.
| QUOTE |
| That said, why is all the artwork and printing such like outside FanPro's control? Do they outsource the actual publishing & formatting to another group or are they actually producing it on behalf of someone else, or what? I sense I've missed something, here. |
Writing: very frequently done by freelancers.
Editing: very frequently done by freelancers.
Art: exclusively done by freelancers.
Layout/Graphic design: exclusively done by freelancers.
Printing: Done by third party companies.
Sure, FanPro has "control" over those processes -- they choose who to hire, who to print with, which projects to assign to which people, etc. But they can't control everything when they outsource. People get sick, people overload themselves with work and can't hit deadlines, printers make mistakes ... shit happens. Publishers just have to roll with it when it does.
For example, sometimes I'll see people say something like "Hey, if an artist is late, why not just hire a new one?" Sure, hiring other artists is an option in the future -- but that won't fix the problem right this instant. If art is due on Monday, and it doesn't arrive, you can't contact a new artist, get him the art notes, and have a finished piece turned in that day [OK, /sometimes/ you can, but it's very rare!] -- so you either have to wait for the late artist to finish it up, or hire a new artist with a sensible rush deadline [like, say, Friday] and hope that *he* isn't late with work.
Nobody is calling you a liar or misinformed, Dog_xinu, don't worry. There have been plenty of people who have said "{insert upcomin book here} is finally coming out {place date here}! My source said so!"...and still, when the company's site still has not updated, Previews has no info, and inquiries to the producers go unanswered, there will be skepticism.
I just wanted to know who told you or where you heard it. Rumors are an unfortunate evil in this business.
I just wanted to know who told you or where you heard it. Rumors are an unfortunate evil in this business.
| QUOTE (Adam) |
| Layout/Graphic design: exclusively done by freelancers. |
I thought you did the Layout ... or was that just with one product or a different company?
As a side note: I really hate the green border in the SR4 book. Please don't use that for layouts again. your eye picks up green/yellow most easily (as I understand it, that's why nightvision goggles display a green tinted image) and I found it very distracting. A cool shade of faded blue may have worked better and distanced the game from The Matrix* slightly rather than looking like yet another company riding its tailcoats.
*Yes, I know the Matrix was inspired by short fiction the VR 1 book.
| QUOTE |
| I thought you did the Layout ... or was that just with one product or a different company? |
Jason Vargas and I shared it, and we're both freelancers.
| QUOTE (BookWyrm) |
| Nobody is calling you a liar or misinformed, Dog_xinu, don't worry. There have been plenty of people who have said "{insert upcomin book here} is finally coming out {place date here}! My source said so!"...and still, when the company's site still has not updated, Previews has no info, and inquiries to the producers go unanswered, there will be skepticism. |
This usually happens with D&D 4E. *rimshot*
| QUOTE |
| Nobody is calling you a liar or misinformed, Dog_xinu, don't worry. There have been plenty of people who have said "{insert upcomin book here} is finally coming out {place date here}! My source said so!"...and still, when the company's site still has not updated, Previews has no info, and inquiries to the producers go unanswered, there will be skepticism. I just wanted to know who told you or where you heard it. Rumors are an unfortunate evil in this business. |
I dont take any misfeelings from the comments above. And I too have seen all the talking about release dates. But when someone from FanPRO on the shadowrun teams tells me something, I take it at face value. I just parroted what he told me (just striping out, some of the details).
if the comments on this board (anywhere) offends me, then I need to stop playing and especially GMing games....
ok, i havn't looked at dumpshock in years and maybe im gulible but what is this:amazon page for Arsenal?
I was thinking of ordering tonight, heck it ships in 3/4 weeks
I was thinking of ordering tonight, heck it ships in 3/4 weeks
Two things I see wrong with that page, is one it says the book is hardbacked. When has SR ever had a hardback other then the limited run BBBs adn it also says its goign to ship in 1 to 3 weeks. So far the earliest anyone including dog has stated is 8 weeks.
EDIT: Amazon has always been a horrible place to find release dates on any RPG book. Its been shown time and again on this site people finding SR release dates there and they are even remotley close.
And they have a SR4 GM screen listed. I have seen here that there is no such animal and there hasnt been one printed.
EDIT: Amazon has always been a horrible place to find release dates on any RPG book. Its been shown time and again on this site people finding SR release dates there and they are even remotley close.
And they have a SR4 GM screen listed. I have seen here that there is no such animal and there hasnt been one printed.
| QUOTE (Frag-o Delux) |
| Two things I see wrong with that page, is one it says the book is hardbacked. When has SR ever had a hardback other then the limited run BBBs |
SR4:
Limited Run BBB
Regular print BBB
Street Magic
Arsenal is also sporting the same price tag as street magic. I'm guessing Augmentation and Unwired will as well.
Yah, as far as I know and have seen all of the Shadowrun 4 sourcebooks will/have been Hard Cover.
I think that is the way RPG's have been going in general over the last couple of years.
I think that is the way RPG's have been going in general over the last couple of years.
Actualy I redgistered here tonight because i found Arsenal on amazon and i wondered what it was. I've had my SR4 book for three days and the lack of suporting material is killing me. Befor i rediscovered Dumpshock amazon was the only way i could find out what might be coming up.
BTW:
what is Arsenal (will it have unarmend combat rules and firearms builds?)
where do i look for upcoming stuff? (more sr4 vehicles please! ;()
BTW:
what is Arsenal (will it have unarmend combat rules and firearms builds?)
where do i look for upcoming stuff? (more sr4 vehicles please! ;()
Well I guess thats something new. Good for them. Though personally paying for hard back is not worth it in my mind.
Point Im trying to make is release dates are never what they are. I have seen SR books held up for months, I have seen one make it to the printers and still delayed once there. I have seen them printed and then distribution ties them up. It will do everyone well to just play the game and when the book shows up on the shelves prance around like its christmas time and go get it. Trying to predict the release dates or waiting for one that you heard about is an excercise in futility and not really worth it. A release scheduel only serves to let you know that certain books are possible but even then those books dont always materialize, like that one nicknamed Boo! Scarey book of SR creatures, or what ever the hell it was called. Hell Shadows of Latin America was written but never released, its been promised to be released on Holonet for over a year now and its still not out.
Like its been said already, no one is calling the posters here or the people that work for Fanpro liars. Its just best to pretend release dates were never given and act suprised when its released other wise youll just get madder and madder as the dates come and go with out the book.
Point Im trying to make is release dates are never what they are. I have seen SR books held up for months, I have seen one make it to the printers and still delayed once there. I have seen them printed and then distribution ties them up. It will do everyone well to just play the game and when the book shows up on the shelves prance around like its christmas time and go get it. Trying to predict the release dates or waiting for one that you heard about is an excercise in futility and not really worth it. A release scheduel only serves to let you know that certain books are possible but even then those books dont always materialize, like that one nicknamed Boo! Scarey book of SR creatures, or what ever the hell it was called. Hell Shadows of Latin America was written but never released, its been promised to be released on Holonet for over a year now and its still not out.
Like its been said already, no one is calling the posters here or the people that work for Fanpro liars. Its just best to pretend release dates were never given and act suprised when its released other wise youll just get madder and madder as the dates come and go with out the book.
Arsenal is Guns, Armor, and things that go boom. I suspect it will have Unarmed fightin styles a la Man & Machine, if you have that book, however that's purely speculation. I suspect there will also be expanded snifty gear for covert/special ops. Maybe a section on running Merc campaigns.
It may also have vehicles, but if so, I suspect they will military focused. I believe there's an update to Rigger 3/3.5 scheduled but I'm not sure hat it's called ... it might be part of Arsenal (I wouldn't be surprised if they handled general vehicles in Arsenal and Drones in unwired), but I doubt it.
I hope there will be a firearm design/customization system like there was in Canon Companion.
Someone else can probably give you a more accurate picture as I kind of glazed over the short description Adam (sorry), I think, gave me at Gencon. :sheepish grin:
It may also have vehicles, but if so, I suspect they will military focused. I believe there's an update to Rigger 3/3.5 scheduled but I'm not sure hat it's called ... it might be part of Arsenal (I wouldn't be surprised if they handled general vehicles in Arsenal and Drones in unwired), but I doubt it.
I hope there will be a firearm design/customization system like there was in Canon Companion.
Someone else can probably give you a more accurate picture as I kind of glazed over the short description Adam (sorry), I think, gave me at Gencon. :sheepish grin:
Arsenal will have non-military vehicles and firearms customization rules.
OneTrikPony: keep an eye on shadowrunrpg.com -- we'll be posting info on the rest of the year's releases later this week. [I didn't realize that it was missing Arsenal still.. agh.]
OneTrikPony: keep an eye on shadowrunrpg.com -- we'll be posting info on the rest of the year's releases later this week. [I didn't realize that it was missing Arsenal still.. agh.]
Never, ever trust Amazon.com... When did it become ok for a company to sell products they don't even have, and lie about the time in which they will reach the customer?
| QUOTE |
| Arsenal will have non-military vehicles and firearms customization rules. |
SWEET! and once we get the cyberware rules this might be a game i would take the time to play
| QUOTE (mallet) |
| Yah, as far as I know and have seen all of the Shadowrun 4 sourcebooks will/have been Hard Cover. |
All of the SR4 corebooks will be hardcover - BBB, Street Magic, Arsenal, Unwired and Augmentation!
Sourcebooks are still softcover...
| QUOTE (Cabral) |
| I hope there will be a firearm design/customization system like there was in Canon Companion. |
Should read:
I hope there will be a firearm design/customization system way more thought-out, play-tested and less abusable than in Canon Companion.
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| Never, ever trust Amazon.com... When did it become ok for a company to sell products they don't even have, and lie about the time in which they will reach the customer? |
They actually hit the release dates for Eberron-sourcebooks really good.
| QUOTE (M¥$T1C) | ||
Should read: I hope there will be a firearm design/customization system way more thought-out, play-tested and less abusable than in Canon Companion. |
Or, even better:
I hope there will be no firearm design system like there was in Canon Companion, but some nice, balanced and easy customizations.
Dont hope, that is confirmed. No design, but a cusomization system.
Source: FANPRO Qestion and answers at Ratcon.
Source: FANPRO Qestion and answers at Ratcon.
That's good news.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| Dont hope, that is confirmed. No design, but a cusomization system. Source: FANPRO Qestion and answers at Ratcon. |
So far, the vehicle, drone, and firearm customization/modification systems have been getting good reviews from playtesters, and they've been one of the more heavily reviewed and revised sections of the rules. I think there's a good chance that folks will be pleased.
now, that leaves me with the hope that someone will create some sort of sr3 -->sr4 conversion guide.. because i liked vehicle design in sr 3
heh, nothing like being able to make a van that could break the sound barrier and then some.
that was a customization thing, not a design system prob...
Design rules were a problem because you made things that were better in every way - and potentially even cheaper.
Customisation applies to equipment alike, so it's not that problematic.
Customisation applies to equipment alike, so it's not that problematic.
| QUOTE (winterhawk11 @ Sep 4 2006, 10:39 AM) | ||
So far, the vehicle, drone, and firearm customization/modification systems have been getting good reviews from playtesters, and they've been one of the more heavily reviewed and revised sections of the rules. I think there's a good chance that folks will be pleased. |
Gah! No! Please tell me there is still going to be a design system. One of the nice things about the design systems was that it meant that you didn't have to detail so many vehicles and weapons. Don't amputate when you can fix it.
Aw sod it, I just want lots of luvverly pictures of guns, vehicles and drones. Not even all that fussed about the stats
| QUOTE (maeel) |
| now, that leaves me with the hope that someone will create some sort of sr3 -->sr4 conversion guide.. because i liked vehicle design in sr 3 |
I liked how you couldn't make a commercial airplane that could fly across the atlantic, or a vector thrust that could fly 150 km without running out of fuel.
Ok, I though it sort of sucked myself. But it's really hard to make a vehicle design system that doesn't really suck, so I'd rather have them spend time on doing a bunch of non-sucky vehicles rather then on a system that is probably just not going to work out well.
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
I liked how you couldn't make a commercial airplane that could fly across the atlantic, or a vector thrust that could fly 150 km without running out of fuel. Ok, I though it sort of sucked myself. But it's really hard to make a vehicle design system that doesn't really suck, so I'd rather have them spend time on doing a bunch of non-sucky vehicles rather then on a system that is probably just not going to work out well. |
they screwed up with the vehicles in the core book, what makes u think, they are gonna perform better with arsenal?
| QUOTE (maeel) |
| they screwed up with the vehicles in the core book, what makes u think, they are gonna perform better with arsenal? |
Hope over experiance?
I still find it odd that they never produced stats for the Doc-Wagon helos that allowed the crew and passengers that they said fit to fit.
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