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emo samurai
I'd normally say Possession, but then again, materialization works even if nobody's there.
Toshiaki
Materialization because it fits the style of most of my NPCs best. Though I do have to say that Possession is a lot of fun, just that it appears less often in my games.
knasser

If it were for a character I were playing, then probably Materialisation. I do have a build that focuses on possession but only because there were very good character reasons for it.

For NPCs, I might use possession now and again for a bit of variety, but I don't think anything compares to a Force 6 Beast Spirit tearing down the corridor at you.
Aaron
It occurs to me that it's much easier to sneak a spirit into places with possession.
Jaid
QUOTE (Aaron)
It occurs to me that it's much easier to sneak a spirit into places with possession.

easier as compared to what?

you're saying it's easier to get an extra person, or other prepared vessel, into an area than it is to get just yourself into said area and then call the spirit? if so, i have to disagree with you on that.

perhaps you think it's easier to get a possessed person or other prepared vessel into a location than it is to get a materialised spirit? again, i'll have to disagree with you if this is your point. materialised spirits can fly, and can just sit around in the astral if you don't need them on the material plane. and if someone can see the spirit in astral form, then they can know that the possessed person is possessed as well.

frankly, i'm just not seeing how it's easier to sneak a spirit into a place using possession... don't get me wrong, possession has it's advantages (huge physical attributes being one of those things, for example), but sneaking into places doesn't seem to be one of them...
emo samurai
What if it possesses a guard?
Samaels Ghost
So long as there is lax astral security, that's a good idea. Otherwise it won't take long for a conflict to ensue.
emo samurai
But there's channeling! And it allows your mage to be invincible for the duration of a combat!
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE (emo samurai)
But there's channeling! And it allows your mage to be invincible BADASS for the duration of a combat!

Fixed it
Da9iel
AWESOME!!!
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
So long as there is lax astral security, that's a good idea. Otherwise it won't take long for a conflict to ensue.

Even then, noticing a posessing spirit takes 6-Force hits in perception.
Not exactly bulletproof to begin with.
Jaid
QUOTE (emo samurai)
What if it possesses a guard?

well, that works real well... provided the guard lets you perform a ritual on him first.

personally, if i was a guard (or any normal person in SR, for that matter), i probably wouldn't just let someone perform a magical ritual on me to make me a prepared vessel.
FanGirl
That's what roofies are for! biggrin.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Sep 3 2006, 10:31 PM)
What if it possesses a guard?

well, that works real well... provided the guard lets you perform a ritual on him first.

personally, if i was a guard (or any normal person in SR, for that matter), i probably wouldn't just let someone perform a magical ritual on me to make me a prepared vessel.

Simply summon a spirits that three force points greater than you were planning to summon. This has the same effect as making the guard into a prepared vessel for your possesing spirit and then some.

+6 bonus is nice, but it is not necessary for a sufficiently powerful spirit.
Shrike30
Posession just seems to have so much more style...

I dunno. Maybe my game's ubersummoner is burning me out.
Metalsmith
QUOTE (emo samurai)
I'd normally say Possession, but then again, materialization works even if nobody's there.

If there was nothing there, there would be no need for either kind of spirt Materilized or Possessing.

There's always Somebody there.

You are there: Possess yourself and become created Shiva the Destroyer.

Bank Vault door is there: Inability to use high tech aside you can use basic functions. Opening or Closing a door is a basic funtion.

Want a cheap servant, and can't bring yourself to nab a neighbor kid or the pizza man? Possess a Marmoset and send it out to do your bidding.

-----------METALSMITH------------^^^^


Metalsmith
QUOTE (knasser @ Sep 3 2006, 03:45 PM)
but I don't think anything compares to a Force 6 Beast Spirit tearing down the corridor at you.

Except for a force 6 Spirit of any type Possessing a Guard and tearing down the corridor at you. Also the psych war potential of forcing you to shoot a co-worker. There is no such problem when a spirit is involved, just toss a frag grenade at it.

Beast Spirit
Bod 8 Agil 7 React 8 Str 8 Cha 6 Intuit 6 Logic 6 Will 6 Init 12
Damage Reist 12 Hardened +8 Body

Possessed Lonestar Guard
Bod 3(9) Agil 4(10) React 4(10) Str 3(9) Cha 3 Intit 4(6) Logic 3(6) Will 3(6) Init 16
Damage Resist: 12 Hardened +9 Bod +8/6 Jacket

and because I'm in a good mood.

Possessed Marmoset (Monkeys are agile and quick)
Bod 1(7) Agil 5(11) React 5(11) Str 1(7) Cha 6 Intuit 6 Logic 6 Will 6 Init 17
Damage Resist 12 Hardened +7 Body

On a choice between facing any of the above, I'll face the Beast Spirit. (the Monkey is slightly less dangerous but will throw Poo)

On a fight between the Beast Spirit and the Guard I'll bet on the guard.
On a fight between the Beast Spirit and the Marmoset I'll bet on the Marmoset
On a fight between the Guard and the Marmoset I'm betting on the Marmoset (but only because I back the Monkey as a general rule)
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Metalsmith)
Want a cheap servant, and can't bring yourself to nab a neighbor kid or the pizza man? Possess a Marmoset and send it out to do your bidding.

Even better:
Kill it first and get an undead monkey. rotfl.gif

PS: And make sure that the spirit posessing it has the Engulf power.
Slithery D
Actually, at Force 6 the Beast spirit does the most damage in one on one combat. Natural weapon DV 6 + Venom DV 6. After it used Fear, of course, to make you run so it can hit you from behind.
BishopMcQ
Voodoo groupie...
Metalsmith
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Sep 13 2006, 07:58 PM)
Actually, at Force 6 the Beast spirit does the most damage in one on one combat. Natural weapon DV 6 + Venom DV 6. After it used Fear, of course, to make you run so it can hit you from behind.

LOL, Sorry Charlie. frown.gif

Page 102 Street Magic, Possesion and Vessles sidebar.

"When a spirit possess a vessel, the combined bing that results is dual-natured, has Immunity to Normal Weapons, and boasts ALL of the spirits powers and skills."

or am I somehow misinterpreting that quote?

Actually, at Force 6 the Possessed guard does the most damage in one on one combat. Natural Weapon DV 6 + Venom DV 6 After it used Fear, of course, to make you run so it can hit you from behind.
RIGHT BACK AT 'CHA smile.gif


My money is on the guard.

Possessing a Creature, just about any creature, is better than your standard Joe Shmoe Spirit.

--------METALSMITH-----^^^^
Slithery D
There are no possession traditions in SM that summon Beast Spirits. But you get a silver star.
Metalsmith
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Sep 13 2006, 08:39 PM)
There are no possession traditions in SM that summon Beast Spirits. But you get a silver star.

Sorry again, Charlie frown.gif
but you get a "Silver Star"

Pge 35
"This by no means an exhaustive list of the myriad traditions that find their home in the sixth world, just a represntative samelo f the most widespread....."

Or do you, laughingly, think an inability to summon Beast Spirits was supposed to be another "supposed" weakness of the Possession Traditions? When several opportunities for such a note were passed by in Street Magic.

Then again if you seriously want to perform the mental gymnastics required to believe that Beast Spirits are NEVER able to be summoned. Make it a Guard possessed by a spirt of Fire. With Engulf and Energy Aura.

Crispy Critter.


--------------METALSMITH------------^^^^
Slithery D
Yes, in the predefined circumstances you specify your custom build will win >50% of the time. I'm very proud of you, and I'm sure your parents will be, too. Put a gold star in your coloring book!
Kremlin KOA
predefined circumstance? Brahmanic hindu mased magical tradition is the least likely part of the whole thing


your games might vary but in the games I run PCs are shadowrunners who break into corporate compounds to do illegal jobs for money

this means they run into guards a lot
Slithery D
I'M NOT TALKING THEOLOGY AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE FRAGGIN' POINT!

(2 points)
James McMurray
QUOTE
Make it a Guard possessed by a spirt of Fire. With Engulf and Energy Aura.


There's a mage who'll be paying the company's insurance premiums from that point forward. smile.gif
emo samurai
How the fuck would a guard engulf?
James McMurray
Think about it for a bit. wink.gif
Metalsmith
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 13 2006, 10:08 PM)

There's a mage who'll be paying the company's insurance premiums from that point forward. smile.gif

Shure they can send any insurance premiums to my runners physical mail address
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500.

or
Does the Fire Spirit hurt itself with the Energy Aura Power? I don't see why it would hurt the guard its posessing either, they both become dual natured beings for a short period of time. Although when they seperate its nice to see if they are damaged they both suffer the exact same damage.

Engulf: Think of it as a "Special" kind of Hugging.

Slithery-D: Those "Pre-Defined" circumstances were all yours. I somehow thought the point you were trying to make was the "Joe Shmoe" Force 6 Beast Spirit was somehow more fearsome than a Force 6 Spirit who was Posessing an Average Guard. I mean it wasn't even your post I was responding to. I guess I should have looked for the deeper meaning in your words.
You were just trying to sieze an opportunity to poke at me.
I apologise for hurting your feelings. Get well soon.


---------METALSMITH---------^^^^
knasser
QUOTE (Metalsmith)
QUOTE (knasser @ Sep 3 2006, 03:45 PM)
but I don't think anything compares to a Force 6 Beast Spirit tearing down the corridor at you.

Except for a force 6 Spirit of any type Possessing a Guard and tearing down the corridor at you. Also the psych war potential of forcing you to shoot a co-worker. There is no such problem when a spirit is involved, just toss a frag grenade at it.

Beast Spirit
Bod 8 Agil 7 React 8 Str 8 Cha 6 Intuit 6 Logic 6 Will 6 Init 12
Damage Reist 12 Hardened +8 Body

Possessed Lonestar Guard
Bod 3(9) Agil 4(10) React 4(10) Str 3(9) Cha 3 Intit 4(6) Logic 3(6) Will 3(6) Init 16
Damage Resist: 12 Hardened +9 Bod +8/6 Jacket

and because I'm in a good mood.

Possessed Marmoset (Monkeys are agile and quick)
Bod 1(7) Agil 5(11) React 5(11) Str 1(7) Cha 6 Intuit 6 Logic 6 Will 6 Init 17
Damage Resist 12 Hardened +7 Body

On a choice between facing any of the above, I'll face the Beast Spirit. (the Monkey is slightly less dangerous but will throw Poo)

On a fight between the Beast Spirit and the Guard I'll bet on the guard.
On a fight between the Beast Spirit and the Marmoset I'll bet on the Marmoset
On a fight between the Guard and the Marmoset I'm betting on the Marmoset (but only because I back the Monkey as a general rule)


If your intention is to show that possession is overpowered (as it has been in the last two threads we've had this conversation), then you've ommitted a few things.

Last time we had this conversation it emerged you played in a game where PCs routinely had edge of 5-6 which refreshed five or more times during a session. Consequently, Force 6 is a toy to your mages. It's either expensive or a significant drain risk during the run for normal play.

Consider that while your Force 6 spirit has a 80% chance of possessing a low-average guard from the SR4 grunts section (Int 3, Will 3), by the time you reach Force 4, it's barely 50%. And the attempt itself uses a service.

And if you face slightly more formidable opposition, say 3 Renraku Red Samurai spring on you (Int 4 Will 4), that valuable Force 6 spirit (with correspondingly fewer services to waste), now only has a 60% chance of pulling off a successful possession first service. Meanwhile, the Force 4 is down to 25%.

So while possession mages can pull of more powerful spirits in some ways, they're less certain of getting a result. And they're also more or less cutting themselves off from usage of lower end spirits. An hermetic can still whip out his Force 4 Beast, which is still going to give those Red Samurai some heavy hassle. I don't think many possession mages would bother taking the low odds of success with a Force 4 unless they were desparate.

So while Possession has some nice advantages, such as taking the possessee straight out of the fight, it comes with a heavy cost. If you're making an uncontrolled withdrawal ("RUNAWAY!!!!") and there's a drone or two after you, the hermetic can summon a Force 4 fire elemental which can try and engulf or at least take some bullets for him and his team mates. The possession mage... meh, not so much.

Note that in my probabilities above, none of the guards were using Edge to resist possession. As many military commanders have agreed, consistent reliability is much better than undependable strength. There are things that possession is reliable for and very good at. But as a means of straight slaughtering of guards, materialisation is best.

Possession is also traumatic and nasty. Many characters would prefer to have an elemental running around doing their bidding than raping the minds of innocent bystanders.
knasser
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Sep 13 2006, 10:13 PM)
How the fuck would a guard engulf?


If you want a slightly less suggestive answer than JamesMcMurray's, the Engulf power description does say that it's not neccesarily the spirit itself that is engulfing but that it can manipulate the environment around it. So Earth spirit. a guard can be sucked into the ground or living mud can be flung into his face, with a Fire spirit he can be set on fire and wreathed in flames. An air spirit might create a howling gale around it and the air is sucked from around the guard towards it, leaving him floundering and gasping for breath. Water... really reaching. If it's in an aquatic environment then easy, but if it's all dry, I'd have to fall back on hurling a glob of itself around his head which clings and forces its way up his nose and down his throat. A possessed spirit could do all of these things (again - water is reaching a bit), though it couldn't do non-power like things such as fly or appear and dissappear around the place at astral speeds to catch those escaping (at least not without burning a ridiculous number of services).
Slithery D
I gathered that possession Engulf involved a partial materialization of the relevant element around the spirit. It's not using the material around it, but creating its own stuff from astral space.
Metalsmith
Deleted: Colossal quote screwup.
Metalsmith
QUOTE
If your intention is to show that possession is overpowered (as it has been in the last two threads we've had this conversation), then you've ommitted a few things.

Last time we had this conversation it emerged you played in a game where PCs routinely had edge of 5-6 which refreshed five or more times during a session. Consequently, Force 6 is a toy to your mages. It's either expensive or a significant drain risk during the run for normal play.


These are obvious differences in Game Style. I'll let you play in your Mighty, Heroic and Magnificent low edge games. While you leave me to play im my Tacky, Cheap, and Tawdry High Edge Games. OK?
If 4 Drain is a signifigant drain risk, perhaps you need to look for another line of work
Think of it as getting shot with a really light pistol.

Try considering the post at Face Value. "But I dont't think anything compares to a force 6 Beast Spirit tearing down the corridor at you"
I dont know why you insist on brining up old crap. But since you did:

QUOTE
Consider that while your Force 6 spirit has a 80% chance of possessing a low-average guard from the SR4 grunts section (Int 3, Will 3), by the time you reach Force 4, it's barely 50%. And the attempt itself uses a service.

And if you face slightly more formidable opposition, say 3 Renraku Red Samurai spring on you (Int 4 Will 4), that valuable Force 6 spirit (with correspondingly fewer services to waste), now only has a 60% chance of pulling off a successful possession first service. Meanwhile, the Force 4 is down to 25%.

So while possession mages can pull of more powerful spirits in some ways, they're less certain of getting a result. And they're also more or less cutting themselves off from usage of lower end spirits. An hermetic can still whip out his Force 4 Beast, which is still going to give those Red Samurai some heavy hassle. I don't think many possession mages would bother taking the low odds of success with a Force 4 unless they were desparate.


I see you are still doing the whole Avereages are Not Averages song and dance.
Even at 60% (I feel the odds are higher than that 12 Dice Compared to 8 but no matter) the risk is eaisly worth the reward. You gain a Engine of Destruction and taken out 1 of the 3 of the opposition as a free bonus. Leaving the obvious aside and assuming there wasnt already a "Normal" Guard already possessed and in control.

Why you think a Force 4 (8 dice compared to 6 or 8 dice resisting) is down to 25% is beyond me, must be new math. Ahhh wait, they must be spending edge. Good! The more edge they spend the less they have when the Sam attacks. If the possession attempt fails the spirit just switches to a diff guard. Its all part of the same service, "Attack those guards". Though you could have a Mean GM who counts Materilizing as a service and attacking as a service. (if you do, try punching them in the 'nads)

Wait I see below you were not using edge at all. Funny Math.

Possession mages pull off more powerfull spirits in most ways.

If you think a force 4 Beast will give those Red Samurai some heavy hassle you should think again. The mighty mighty Fear power aside. Its on the same level as the poorly made Street Sam archetype. The Red Sam are going to chuckle and 1 guy is going to blow it away right after it wastes an action manifesting.

QUOTE
If you're making an uncontrolled withdrawal ("RUNAWAY!!!!") and there's a drone or two after you, the hermetic can summon a Force 4 fire elemental which can try and engulf or at least take some bullets for him and his team mates. The possession mage... meh, not so much.


Except summon a force 4 fire elemental who possesses a; Crow, Rat, Dog, Canary, Marmoset, Mouse, Secretary, Neighbor Kid, Bum, or BLT addict; which can try and engulf or at least take some bullets for him and his teammates. You must play in some kind of featureless void.

QUOTE
Note that in my probabilities above, none of the guards were using Edge to resist possession. As many military commanders have agreed, consistent reliability is much better than undependable strength. There are things that possession is reliable for and very good at. But as a means of straight slaughtering of guards, materialisation is best.

As a means of straight slaughtering of guards, Possession is the best.
Upon possession you have straight out eliminated one of the Defenders.
The Psyche War potentiial cannot be denied: "I was supposed to go over to Fred's house and have dinner with his family, now Hes got Glowie Purple eyes and is trying to kill me! Maybe I should just run? I picked a bad day to stop doing Nova Coke!"
Your spirit just picked up free gear and armor!

Unless you play in a featureless void and who's guards have Will and Intuit of 6+ each.

QUOTE
Possession is also traumatic and nasty. Many characters would prefer to have an elemental running around doing their bidding than raping the minds of innocent bystanders.


Moral and Emotional argument based solely on what kind of Game and Character Concept you play. Then again this isnt the Smurf game. You were talking about using a Beast spirit to carve the guards up like a Turkey. Suddlenly you are worried about their minds!? (who dont remember a damm thing) Oh the Humanity!

EDIT: WOOoooo! I fixed the quoting thing, now to delet my original post.
knasser
Oh for pity's sake! You keep posting about how almighty Possession is and each time I, or one of the other GMs here post a reply explaining the balances and checks on this power, you respond with increasingly sarcastic comments about how wrong we are. Very soon, I'm going to be able to just cut and paste my replies verbatim from the previous times we've had this conversation. The only reason I continue to have it is to prevent you from misleading any others who haven't played with the new Possession rules themselves, yet. Come to think of it, have you played with the new possession rules, yet? Last week you hadn't even read them and you started on at me about how munchkiny a character I posted was. Before revealing a staggering lack of understanding. And I strongly get the impression that because you went off in this direction in the beginning and met with such a hail of corrections that you've now taken it as a point of pride not to concede defeat. Which is unfortunate because you're wrong.

So from the top, one last time.

QUOTE (metalsmith)

These are obvious differences in Game Style. I'll let you play in your Mighty, Heroic and Magnificent low edge games. While you leave me to play im my Tacky, Cheap, and Tawdry High Edge Games. OK?
If 4 Drain is a signifigant drain risk perhaps you need to look for another line of work.


High edge would generally be considered the heroic version because it's the high edge version that lets you do ridiculous heroics instead of dying. I haven't criticised your style of play, do what you like; but if you're going to come on here and start shouting about how overpowered something is, then you need to be talking about the way the game is normally played under the RAW.

QUOTE (SR @ pg. 68)
    The gamemaster decides when a character’s Edge
points refresh to the full Edge attribute. We recommend
refreshing Edge at the beginning of each game session,
though in some cases it may be more interesting or chal-
lenging to only refresh Edge when a full adventure has
ended, or when specific goals have been met. One possi-
bility is to refresh 1 point of Edge for each achieved goal,
and the rest when the scenario is completed. Alternately,
Edge can simply refresh every day.


You said you have edge refreshing five or six times a session and your characters mostly have 5-6 edge. This makes a joke of most risks, such as summoning drain or binding failures. These risks are one of the balancing factors of possession and they are very significant.

QUOTE (metalsmith)

I see you are still doing the whole Avereages are Not Averages song and dance.
Even at 60% (I feel the odds are higher than that 12 Dice Compared to 8 but no matter) the risk is eaisly worth the reward. You gain a Engine of Destruction and taken out 1 of the 3 of the opposition as a free bonus. Leaving the obvious aside and assuming there wasnt already a "Normal" Guard already possessed and in control.


I see you are still clamping your hands over your ears and refusing to hear the music. In what world is 60% chance of possession easily worth the reward? To get that 60% chance you must first be using Force 6. Now assuming a Force 6 spirit (a valuable investment in either nuyen or mid-run summoning risk), we get the following:

CODE
Beast Spirit:
B  A  R  S  C  I  L  W  EDG  ESS  M    Init   IP
8  7  8  8  6  6  6  6   6    6   6    14     2


CODE
Possessed Red Samurai:
B  A  R  S  C  I  L  W  EDG  ESS  M    Init   IP
10 11 12 13 6  6  6  6  6    6    6    18     2


The powers and abilities are roughly the same except that the manifest version has flight and a movement rate of 10/45. And the possessed spirit is likely to have some security armour on already (say 8/6) and has a movement rate of 10/25. Both will have an effective hardened armour of 12 against normal weapons.

Now I ask you again in which world you live where for the sake of a few extra points in its physical attributes and some armour that will probably never come into play because it already has 12 points of hardened armour, is this going to be worth a near 50:50 chance of it not appearing and you losing your effort, nuyen and any teammates who were depending on you for their rescue? Also, since its natural attack power (remember it can't use its gun anymore or any melee weapon) is based on Force it is the same for either version. The same would be true for other types of spirits and elemental attacks, engulf, etc. The most powerful attacks spirits have are usually based on Force rather than physical attributes.

And the above assumes that you have a grunt guard handy to possess. Yes - as you said, you might be able to possess a "crow" if you have one handy and though I actually can think of environments where there wont be small animals to possess (inside most office buildings would be one), I'll allow that you could bring some with you. I've got to say though, if you're talking about having a force 6 spirit possessing a crow then I really must insist you forfeit any right to have called me "munchkinny," earlier. Besides which, if you're sticking your spirit in anything with a body / strength of 1, then I have to point out you're making the darn thing weaker than the materialised version.

QUOTE (metalsmith)

Why you think a Force 4 (8 dice compared to 6 or 8 dice resisting) is down to 25% is beyond me, must be new math. Ahhh wait, they must be spending edge. Good!


Nope, no edge and I'm sorry that you find it beyond you. Possession is an opposed test. Forcex2 vs. Int + Will. The red samurai in SR4 has Int & Will of 4, so 8 dice there. Your force 6 spirit has 12. Looking good. But to keep the maths simple for you, we'll assume that the red samurai gets average results - 3 successes (had to round up from 2.7 but I have very generously foregone Edge, so far). The spirit must now get four. Probability of four successes with twelve dice is 61%. On average you'll get it but... and I know that you really don't want to hear my "averages are not averages song and dance"... actually averages are averages and that's your problem. You're gambling very badly to get your extra attribute points and give up your movement and flight.

So please don't tell me I'm talking "crap" again. It's not very polite and it's not very true, either.

And finally,

QUOTE (metalsmith)
Your spirit just picked up free gear and armor!


Which it can't use and doesn't need, respectively.

-K.

EDIT: And lest one of my more important points be forgotten in all this talk of Force 6 spirits, don't forget that the possession mage has largely foregone the possibility of creating independent spirits below force 5 as they'd be unlikely to possess anyone but himself That means he can't do things by halves - it's expensive or drain-risky spirits only. That's a big sacrifice right there.

EDIT EDIT: I voted for materialisation, by the way. wink.gif
knasser
QUOTE (Slithery D)
I gathered that possession Engulf involved a partial materialization of the relevant element around the spirit. It's not using the material around it, but creating its own stuff from astral space.


That would be good fluff. Ectoplasmic fire and water. Consider it yoinked.
Metalsmith
QUOTE
Deleted utter B.S. about Edge and refresh times.

He's unhappy with the way other GM's run their games. I asked him to to play in his setting and let me play in mine. However much edge someone has wasn't even mentioned in this thread untill he did. I said 5-6 times per run (not session), and offered up what a run was, and offered up what a session was, and offered up what a "Threatening" situation was.
If you cant take a hold-out pistol round with 0 successes against 12 dice to resist as "Signifigant Risk", then maybe the "Shadows" isn't the place for you.

QUOTE
In what world is 60% chance of possession easily worth the reward? To get that 60% chance you must first be using Force 6. Now assuming a Force 6 spirit (a valuable investment in either nuyen or mid-run summoning risk)


Your funny math, not mine. I put it closer to 70ish. "Risk": A light pistol wound resisted with 12 dice is not signifigant to anyone other than your own yardstick.

QUOTE
he powers and abilities are roughly the same except that the manifest version has flight and a movement rate of 10/45. And the possessed spirit is likely to have some security armour on already (say 8/6) and has a movement rate of 10/25. Both will have an effective hardened armour of 12 against normal weapons.
Now I ask you again in which world you live where for the sake of a few extra points in its physical attributes and some armour that will probably never come into play because it already has 12 points of hardened armour, is this going to be worth a near 50:50 chance of it not appearing and you losing your effort, nuyen and any teammates who were depending on you for their rescue? Also, since its natural attack power (remember it can't use its gun anymore or any melee weapon) is based on Force it is the same for either version. The same would be true for other types of spirits and elemental attacks, engulf, etc. The most powerful attacks spirits have are usually based on Force rather than physical attributes.


You live in a strange world. smile.gif


  • First you give me the P.Guard.

  • THen you give your M.Spirit wings.

  • Then handwave and claim a 2 pt shift in Body, 4 pt in Agility, 4 pt in Reaction, and 5 pt shift in Strength and the utter Spanking it takes in Initiave as things that don't really matter. (If you really didn't want it to matter you would say it's all occuring in astral space)

  • Dismiss the Armor that most defintly comes into play when we are talking about messing with other guards. (wich was what were were orignaly talking about if you haven't forgotten but now you seem to be on a MSpirit vs PSpirit tack, how many times do you want to change the goalposts?)

  • Then you reduce the lofty 60% you munificently granted me to a 50% and costing another one of those hold-out pistol wounds.

  • Then you take him away completely. Leaving teammates who were depending on me for their rescue.

  • Then you give him back and dismiss the 7 wounds its physical strength inflicts as somehow being less than the 6 wounds the M.Spirit's Claws inflict. And the damage only goes up when there's a Troll involved and it's eaiser to possess.

  • Then you forget Guardian spirits can use swords. Damage 10 weapon in the hands of the guard. But hey you are setting the ever-changing goalposts here. So we will stick with the 7 damge the P.Spirit does.



QUOTE
Yes - as you said, you might be able to possess a "crow" if you have one handy and though I actually can think of environments where there wont be small animals to possess (inside most office buildings would be one), I'll allow that you could bring some with you. I've got to say though, if you're talking about having a force 6 spirit possessing a crow then I really must insist you forfeit any right to have called me "munchkinny


Pretty Bleak office buildings without a SalaryMan, Secretary, Janitor, Guards (with highly variable success rate), or Office-Pet (thanks mastercard). But still another handwaving dismissal of the environment.

I never called you a munchkin, I refered to it indirectly, Munchkin Mask, Thinking Cap, all the same to me.

QUOTE
"Besides which, if you're sticking your spirit in anything with a body / strength of 1, then I have to point out you're making the darn thing weaker than the materialised version.


You are using the same handwaving dismissal you used on the P.Guard against the M.Spirit. except the shoe is on the other foot, and the differences are 4x less. You were ignoring a mere 1 point shift.

QUOTE
But to keep the maths simple for you, we'll assume that the red samurai gets average results - 3 successes (had to round up from 2.7 but I have very generously foregone Edge, so far). The spirit must now get four. Probability of four successes with twelve dice is 61%. On average you'll get it but... and I know that you really don't want to hear my "averages are not averages song and dance"... actually averages are averages and that's your problem. You're gambling very badly to get your extra attribute points and give up your movement and flight.


Its nice to round up, very convienitent for you. It was also very nice of you to switch the guard I was speaking about (lonestar) from 7 to 8 dice to resist. It was wonderfull to see you admit 61% was in my favor, but dishartening to see you handwave it away because it wasn't convienient to your point. In the whole process of Possessing a Red Samurai if the spirit fails, it will try one of the Sams buddies. When the M.Spirit assumes physical form everyone turns and dumps on it. 12 Hardened doesnt last long against Assault Rifle bursts. Then again in your world maybe Red Sams carry Brooms and don't do anything when a spirit manifests. On one Dice roll, a dice roll that the P.Spirit is going to win enough of the time that it makes you want to open a Vegas Casino, it takes out 1 of the opposition in the same action the M.Spirit uses to Manifest.
I didn't see that Beast spirits have Flight. I know they are drawn with wings but I assumed that it was the artists chimerical representation of the Spirit.
Rarely do I need a Manifesting spirit to move faster than I do. If so I'll pick one with a flight based movement power. A posessing Air Spirit should be able to fly, after all it gets to use all the powers the same spirit gets to use. It would be extremely odd that they forgot to say "Except Flight".

QUOTE
Which it can't use and doesn't need, respectively.


Guardian Spirits can, and I can. You must do all your 'runs altruisticly or have no contacts that can fence loot.

QUOTE
And lest one of my more important points be forgotten in all this talk of Force 6 spirits, don't forget that the possession mage has largely foregone the possibility of creating independent spirits below force 5 as they'd be unlikely to possess anyone but himself That means he can't do things by halves - it's expensive or drain-risky spirits only. That's a big sacrifice right there.


Except all those things you dismissed as inconvienient to your point. Anything a M.Spirit can accomplish a P.Spirit can do just the same. Except take out Will 6+ Intuit 6 + Guys who are willing to spend edge. But then Possess his buddy and Engulf that High Mental Stated Goon.
They are unlikely to posses anyone but himself: Low Intuition and Will people are aplenty, and Vehicles (and the vehicle will never even notice if you fail)
Its expensive: Only if you want to bind them. Its the same expense that M.Mages have to pay so its not even a weakness.
Drain Risky: If you cant take a Hold-Out pistol wound (4P) with 0 successes and 12 Dice to resist, maybe the "Shadows" isn't the place for you.

--------------METALSMITH------------^^^^

P.S.
It just occured to me this whole time that I've been arguing against the percieved weaknesses of Materlizing over Possessing I never explicitly said what I thought about the whole balance between them all.

I think they are Balanced. Gasp. Shock. Horror. All I was saying was the weaknesses were percieved.

The only unbalancing thing is in the section of the rules where they were admittedly undefined. The use of Magic, Edge, and the Augmented Maximum.

If Augmented Maxes were in force then there would be no worries about Possessed Marmosets, Crows, Dogs, Schoolchildren ect.... whooping ass on the Beast Spirit.
or of whittling a finely crafted articulated puppet out of wood and Possessing it with a Force 10.

If Channeling edged up the control you have over the Possessed Body with each level instead of an all at once (with a measly 13 Karma) prospect Knasser and Slithery seem to desire.

Grade 1 Initiate: Selects Channeling - Chooses what kind of control he would like to have over the Possessing Spirit; Movement, Edge, or Magic.
Grade 2 Initiate: Selects Shielding picks up 2 shielding dice. And picks up Control of 1 of the remaining two control options of channeling.
Grade 3 Initiate: Selects Masking, grabs another die of shielding, Picks up last Control aspect of Channeling.



Slithery D
I thought I'd take a break from the computer by going outside for a walk, but I ended up listening to a homeless man raving about something or other. Dumpshock + sunlight. Weird. The only differences I could see was that this guy was wrong when he said he could fly, and Metalsmith is right that beast spirits can't. Other than that, though...
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (emo samurai)
How the fuck would a guard engulf?

QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 287)
The Engulf power gives a critterthe ability to draw victims into itself or the terrain it controls


A possessed guard can engulf you in fire by simply setting you on fire, he doesn't have to put you inside his body.

-Frank
Slithery D
To take you more seriously than you deserve, I'll just point out one of the problems with your ranting above, and not the most serious one - once again, you've moved the goalposts. Somehow a discussion of whether your possessed Red Samurai beast spirit was better than a materialized beast spirit became your opporuntity to once again, whether due to your intellectual limitations or inherent dishonesty (I'm betting on the former) change your possession spirit into a guardian so that he can use a sword(!). A smarter dumb/dishonest hack would have at least said something about giving him Automatics, not relied upon his inherent Blades skill.
Metalsmith
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Sep 14 2006, 04:10 PM)
To take you more seriously than you deserve, I'll just point out one of the problems with your ranting above, and not the most serious one - once again, you've moved the goalposts. Somehow a discussion of whether your possessed Red Samurai beast spirit was better than a materialized beast spirit became your opporuntity to once again, whether due to your intellectual limitations or inherent dishonesty (I'm betting on the former) change your possession spirit into a guardian so that he can use a sword(!). A smarter dumb/dishonest hack would have at least said something about giving him Automatics, not relied upon his inherent Blades skill.

Actually If you notice I was only possessing a standard lonestar guard. The Red Sam was foised on me. Additionaly I didnt much care about what kind of spirit did the possessing, only you did when you wanted to make the absurd claim that none of the possessing traditions could summon Beasts. To counter that claim I tounge-in-cheek made it a Fire Spirit.

I merely mentioned guardian spirits because they can make use of the Red Sams gear without any hassle and I assumed that the word Sam in Red Sam meant they would carry swords. With automatic weapons and such you have to worry about accessories and ammo. and then theres that whole "Normal" Weapon thing.

Again the stats said "Possessed Red Samurai" no mention of the type of spirit and I dismissed the type of spirit it could have been in the same sentence, going back to the Str Damage of 7. Your intellectual limitations: You are the only one thinking Beast Spirit Possessed Red Sam. Please Stop.

I was trying to stick with the basics. Still going first in combat, hitting more accurately, doing more damage and resisting more damage than your oppostition usually carries the winner through the fight.

But then again, like before, you dont have any particular point to make, you just want another opportunity to throw Mud. I've apologied to you once already

-------------------METALSMITH--------------^^^^

P.S.
It just occured to me this whole time that I've been arguing against the percieved weaknesses of Materlizing over Possessing I never explicitly said what I thought about the whole balance between them all.

I think they are Balanced. Gasp. Shock. Horror. Both kind of spirts can accomplish the same things in every task you care to set either spirit. All I was saying was the weaknesses were percieved.

The only unbalancing thing is in the section of the rules where they were admittedly undefined. The use of Magic, Edge, and the Augmented Maximum.

If Augmented Maxes were in force then there would be no worries about Possessed Marmosets, Crows, Dogs, Schoolchildren ect.... whooping ass on the Beast Spirit.
or of whittling a finely crafted articulated puppet out of wood and Possessing it with a Force 10.

If Channeling edged up the control you have over the Possessed Body with each level instead of an all at once (with a measly 13 Karma) prospect Knasser and Slithery seem to desire.

Grade 1 Initiate: Selects Channeling - Chooses what kind of control he would like to have over the Possessing Spirit; Movement, Edge, or Magic.
Grade 2 Initiate: Selects Shielding picks up 2 shielding dice. And picks up Control of 1 of the remaining two control options of channeling.
Grade 3 Initiate: Selects Masking, grabs another die of shielding, Picks up last Control aspect of Channeling.
knasser
QUOTE (Metalsmith)
QUOTE
Deleted utter B.S. about Edge and refresh times.

He's unhappy with the way other GM's run their games.


I presume the "utter bullshit" is mine. Would you like to calm down a bit before you keep posting? Might help you to be a little more polite. As to "He" - are you now addressing your audience Dumpshock about me in third person. I'm afraid I'm still here and quite capable of responding.

I don't much care about how your GM runs his game. But these forums have a lot of GMs on them and if your argument depends on a GM running his game in a way that is markedly different to most others, then you should acknowledge that because it changes your argument. It goes from "in my game possession is über", which I'm fine with, to "in RAW Shadowrun, possession is über" which I vehemently do not. You began this whole debacle by saying how possession was "broken." It isn't unless you're playing in a game where you can "wake up in the morning and handwave up a few Force 5's." Those were your words.

So consider the "bullshit" undeleted again. It stands.

QUOTE (metalsmith)

# First you give me the P.Guard.


I took your Force 6 example and then applied it to the standard Corp Sec in SR4, pg. 275). Seemed reasonable. As I made perfectly clear in my post, you can have a tougher guards if you want, they'll just be more likely to have decent mental stats or magical support. I used some Red Samurai later on to illustrate this.

QUOTE (metalsmith)

# THen you give your M.Spirit wings.


No, the rulebook gives all manifest spirits the ability to ignore gravity. I wouldn't have a problem with a winged beast spirit, but it was a minor point and I said so at the time. I would sooner you'd ignored this point in my post instead of the more interesting ones and responded to some of them. I mentioned it because possessing spirits wouldn't normally have this ability. It's one of those little toys manifest spirits have that possession spirits don't. E.g. like the ability to go astral and come back again, should the need arise in a pursuit for example.

QUOTE (metalsmith)

# Then handwave and claim a 2 pt shift in Body, 4 pt in Agility, 4 pt in Reaction, and 5 pt shift in Strength and the utter Spanking it takes in Initiave as things that don't really matter. (If you really didn't want it to matter you would say it's all occuring in astral space)


I've handwaved nothing. My point isn't that possession is crap. I'm saying that given you already need a Force 6 spirit to reliably possess someone, do these additional points make it worth the risk of failure to appear (amongst other disadvantages). The "utter spanking" in initiative is a good example. It went from 14 to 18 (but only when possessing elite troops). But is it worth losing a service and an initiative pass over if the possession fails? In a game without your casual edge, most players would think that one over very carefully. And thinking something over carefully, is incidentally a good sign that something is approaching balanced. wink.gif

QUOTE (metalsmith)

# Dismiss the Armor that most defintly comes into play when we are talking about messing with other guards. (wich was what were were orignaly talking about if you haven't forgotten but now you seem to be on a MSpirit vs PSpirit tack, how many times do you want to change the goalposts?)


I didn't dismiss armour. I said that given a Force 6 spirit already possesses 12 points of hardened armour against normal weapons, you have to consider whether wearing an armour jacket is worth the chance of it failing to appear. You'll have to explain how I've moved the goalposts by the way. All along I've been trying to drum into you how possession is not wiping the floor with manifestation and I'm still trying to do that now.

QUOTE (metalsmith)

# Then you reduce the lofty 60% you munificently granted me to a 50% and costing another one of those hold-out pistol wounds.


Deep apologies for the hyperbole. When I said a mage is facing a fifty:fifty chance of getting his spirit, I should have said 61:39. Although the accurate figures were only a few lines up so I think most people would be able to get that. Perhaps not you though, because you seem to have difficulty retaining information. Like your "hold-out-pistol-wounds" when I have explained time and again that just because the average drain on a Force 6 spirit is 4, doesn't mean that you wont get an 8 fairly regularly. One day you're going to get 10 or 12 and as you've previously insisted that you do all your spirit summoning on the fly rather than binding, that's going to be bad for your character in the middle of the run. Oh wait, I can hear your reply - "That's what Edge is for." Well that brings us back to whether you want to debate your unusually generous GM or the common way of playing and guidelines in SR4. I will only discuss the consensus.

QUOTE (metalsmith)

# Then you take him away completely. Leaving teammates who were depending on me for their rescue.


I was originally continuing with the guard because that was the example you'd used, and then I realised you'd confused the probabilities with the Red Samurai example so I carried on with that. I was just trying to be helpful, really. It's not as though anything was misrepresented though. Everything was very clear so I'm puzzled why this bothers you. And teammates depending on you for rescue? Sure - it's one reason why you might summon a spirit. Pick any you like. I was just illustrating why you might not want to risk a 40% failure chance of the spirit showing up. cool.gif

QUOTE (metalsmith)

# Then you give him back and dismiss the 7 wounds its physical strength inflicts as somehow being less than the 6 wounds the M.Spirit's Claws inflict. And the damage only goes up when there's a Troll involved and it's eaiser to possess.


You're confused. The natural attack power of a beast spirit isn't affected by strength. That's what I said. Whether it's manifest or possessing, a Beast Spirit does 6P points of damage base. Unless you want to forego the Physical and use base unarmed for the possessed Red Samurai with 13 strength. Fine if you want, though a 1 box difference is again not worth risking your spirit not showing up for, in my mind.

QUOTE (metalsmith)

# Then you forget Guardian spirits can use swords. Damage 10 weapon in the hands of the guard. But hey you are setting the ever-changing goalposts here. So we will stick with the 7 damge the P.Spirit does.


Well we were discussing Beast Spirits because that was the example I originally picked and you said it would be better if the spirit were possessing rather than manifest. If you want to switch spirits, then a Guardian has some advantages. If we're switching them around then I'll have a Force 6 Elemental using Engulf which can bypass armour all together, be used in LOS range and immediately takes the victim out of combat regardless of how they resist damage until they can pass a Strength + Body vs. 10 dice (up to 16 if I choose an Earth elemental). As you can see, having a spirit use its usual powers is usually a better strategy than having it charge into melee with a sword or fire a gun, and these powers are common to both manifest and possession so are no advantage in the possession camp.

QUOTE (metalsmith)
You are using the same handwaving dismissal you used on the P.Guard against the M.Spirit. except the shoe is on the other foot, and the differences are 4x less. You were ignoring a mere 1 point shift.


Well if a couple of points boost isn't worth a 40% chance of your spirit not showing up, then a point or two subtracted certainly isn't. Yes? rotfl.gif

QUOTE (metalsmith)

It was wonderfull to see you admit 61% was in my favor


I said that 61% chance of your spirit turning up is bad. It's only in your favour if you aren't comparing it with the 100% chance of your spirit turning up that manifest traditions get.

QUOTE (metalsmith)
On one Dice roll, a dice roll that the P.Spirit is going to win enough of the time that it makes you want to open a Vegas Casino, it takes out 1 of the opposition in the same action the M.Spirit uses to Manifest.


Will you please quit posting until you've actually read the rules. It's not as bad as not knowing that possession takes the place of manifestation, but you ought to know that possessing is a complex action. I've even said this myself, I'm sure. They're no faster to appear than the spirit. They also have to appear where the intended possessee is.

QUOTE (metalsmith)
A posessing Air Spirit should be able to fly, after all it gets to use all the powers the same spirit gets to use. It would be extremely odd that they forgot to say "Except Flight".


None of them have the power "flight" or any equivalent. It's an ability that comes with manifestation. Flight is a skill like Run. I personally would probably handwave an air spirit to allow it however. Some GMs would not. Again you should read the rules before posting on them.

So I'm done here. I'm not going to post any more on this subject in this thread. By this point, if you don't understand you aren't capable of it. I'll just finish off with a comment about the probability. Since you accused me "funny maths" which I take exception to, I'll cover it quickly.

The area of maths that is useful for this is called Binomial Probability. The formula that is useful for working out the likelyhood of achieving particular successes is as follows:

CODE

P (K successes in n trials) = (n) p^k q^(n-k)
                              (k)

n = number of trials i.e. dice rolls
k = number of successes
n – k = number of failures
p = probability of success in one trial
q = 1 – p = probability of failure in one trial


Plug the numbers in yourself and try it. Remember that you'll have to add in the probabilities of getting more successes than you need and I hope it's clear that (n k) is the binomial coefficient despite the dodgy formatting.

Now quit accusing me of "bullshit", "dredging up crap" and distorting or ignoring facts that are inconvenient.

-K.
Samaels Ghost
Engulf is touch range and you still have to suceed in a melee attack to affect a target. Careful, Knasser. I'm with you on the issue, btw.
Ryu
I choose materialisation because of usefulness.

Possession is cool, but less flexible. The spirit will be hard-pressed trying to pass through a wall. It must be conjured into a body, requiring said body to be present and chosen at the moment of conjuration. Said body is now a dual entity, unable to hide from astral observers on a metaplane until needed.
knasser
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
Engulf is touch range and you still have to suceed in a melee attack to affect a target. Careful, Knasser. I'm with you on the issue, btw.



Ooops. Apologies to everyone. It looks like I'm getting carried away now, too. My only excuse was sleep deprivation (had been over thirty hours at the time of posting).

Re-reading my post, I think I was getting a bit sarcastic at the end there what with the posting of probability mass function. I was a bit irritated at someone simply commenting I had "funny math" without actually saying what they thought was wrong with it. It stank of cheap mudslinging. The correct response however, would be to show how I actually arrived at the figure of 61% and thus actually contribute something.

Apologies to others who already know how to do this. I'm well aware how educated this forum can get at times, but this may be of interest to others, so don't feel offended if you're rolling your eyes at this point - it's your job to check I'm right. wink.gif

So anyway, there's a long way and a short way of doing this. Actually, there's a really long way of doing this which involves drawing out a tree diagram of all the branching probabilities and adding up like results but I don't recommend any does that without a large piece of paper. The long way of doing this is what I posted previously and it's what I did with a calculator before I posted as I was too tired to do it properly.

CODE

P (K successes in n trials) = (n) p^k q^(n-k)
                              (k)

n = number of trials i.e. dice rolls
k = number of successes
n – k = number of failures
p = probability of success in one trial
q = 1 – p = probability of failure in one trial


This is a standard formula for calculating the probability (P) of a number of successes given a certain number of trials (dice rolls in Shadowrun). It's part of what's called Binomial Distribution and is standard maths (though probably not on the 11+). (n) with the (k) underneath it is supposed to be written with the n above the k and one double height pair of brackets around them both if my formatting is too bad to tell. It's called the binomial coefficient and I'll come back to it at the end. It's actually quite simple to work out when you need to, but often left written as it is.

We will use a Force 6 Beast Spirit and a Renraku Red Samurai (Int 4, Will 4).
Possession is a complex action and is an opposed roll between Force x 2 and Int + Will.

For the sake of clarity, our number are as follows:
n = 12 (the Force x2 dice the spirit rolls)
k=4 (the minimum successes the spirit needs to overcome the three the samurai has)
n-k = 8 (just part of the formula, really. Calculated from n and k).
p = 1/3 (i.e. 5-6 on a 1d6)
q = 2/3 (i.e. 1 - chance of success p)

You'll notice that the Beast Spirit is up against the average roll of the Red Samurai, three successes. I've rounded this up from 2 2/3rds to get a nice integer (whole number). I originally did this because as part of my general point it was appropriate. I had just generously declared that the guard wouldn't use edge for my example. so I didn't feel bad about it. I'll include probailities where edge is used at the end, maybe. The rounding makes fairly little difference compared to that.

If you run the above through a calculator, you get the following:

CODE

P(4 successes in 12 trials) = (12)
                              (4) * 0.0123 * 0.039


We have one last thing to do and that is to work out the binomial coefficient at the beginning. The formula for this is:
CODE

(n) = ______n!______
(k)     (n-k)! k!


! means factorial which is on the calcualtor. Doing this where n = 12 and k = 4, we eventually get the number 495.

495 * 0.0123 * 0.039 = 0.237

That's the chance of getting exactly four successes with 12 dice. I realise I have some slight rounding errors in there. It's actually closer to 0.238. wink.gif Anyway, if you wanted that probability as a percentage, you just multiply by 100 to get 24%.

Now if that were are final result, then metalsmith would really be unhappy. But what we have to do is add in the chances of getting 5 successes, and 6 successes, and 7 successes etc. It's at this point that the current author realises that although he can do this mathematically, he's probably not going to be able to explain it very well. So you can just add them up which takes less time than you'd think. Suffice it to say that the probability of 5 successess is 19%, 6 successes is 11% and 7 successes is 4%. Thereafter it gets increasingly small so is less worth bothering with. Adding just these up brings us to 58% which is around what I said. The remaining dribble from higher success chances will take you to 61%

I think it's always worth know what you're doing before you ask a computer to do things for you, but most spreadsheets do have a binomial distribution function built in which you can use.

I quickly did this one which shows how to do it for anyone that is interested.
Link

I hope this is interesting for some of you. The rest of you can wake up now. biggrin.gif

I also brace myself for corrections from the mathematicians out there. I feel you waiting to pounce. dead.gif

Oh, incidentally, I said that I would recalculate for victims that use Edge to defend themself (I think possession is sufficient provocation). The bog standard security guard will get 3 successes, putting him on the same level as the Red Samural who doesn't use edge, i.e. a Force 6 spirit has a 61% chance of successfully possessing. The Red Samurai now get a whopping 4 successes, giving the Force 6 spirit a poor 36% chance of successfully possessing. Ouch! I'm now of the opinion that possession requires good use of prepared vessels or self-possession to be effective, though with planning it can be great fun and has some uses that materialisation cannot match (e..g impersonation).
Ranneko
Doing my calculations (I also calculated the odds of the Red Sam getting X number of hits) the chance of a F6 spirit to posses a red sam without the use of edge by any side is 65.20%

A force 4 spirit has a 39.54% chance

Force 3 has a 25.46% chance

If you get an F8 spirit, it has an 82.62% chance

And that is enough for me, time to sleep.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to adjust the formula to fit force 8, and so my value was low by almost 0.04%
knasser
QUOTE (Ranneko @ Sep 15 2006, 11:33 AM)
Doing my calculations (I also calculated the odds of the Red Sam getting X number of hits) the chance of a F6 spirit to posses a red sam without the use of edge by any side is 65.20%

A force 4 spirit has a 39.54% chance

Force 3 has a 25.46% chance

If you get an F8 spirit, it has an 82.62% chance

And that is enough for me, time to sleep.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to adjust the formula to fit force 8, and so my value was low by almost 0.04%


Hmmm. 5% up on my figure. That sounds about right for my rounding error. Do I still get marks for showing my working, sir? wink.gif


Clearly the solution is only to summon Force 8 spirits. cool.gif

Now what possession would be really cool for, would be having a small cult worshipping some shadow spirit that had a great fat idol prepared. During big ceremonies, the spirit would possesses the idol to use its powers on the worshippers. And naturally, it could animate when the shadowrunners arrived to foil the plot. Hmmmm. Now if I can just find a way to make it not cheesy, I have the beginnings of an excellent adventure . biggrin.gif
James McMurray
Force 8 spirits are easy to summon constantly when you have Edge pouring out of your ears. wink.gif
knasser
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Force 8 spirits are easy to summon constantly when you have Edge pouring out of your ears. wink.gif


@Knasser: Okay - Put the keyboard down. Step away from the keyboard.

frown.gif
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