People often complain about invisible mages nuking folks or passing by them undetected.

Most of my corporate facilities include dogs with their guards. They're cheap, easy to train, and aren't fooled by invisibility since their primary sense is scent, not sight. I would think this could work (at least in some cases) for the PCs as well. If nothing else, it gives the mage an additional target to waste an IP on in the first pass...

I feel that drones are the most effective means of dealing with mages. And keep in mind, you don't need to be a rigger or hacker - anyone can use them. They have a Pilot rating and can follow commands. Get out of LOS, deploy the drone, use it's feed. Once it finds the mage, give the command. "You see that guy? Shoot that guy." The drone does the rest.

Now use 3-4 flying ones with Alphas.

Well cyber-eye cameras might be fooled, but not most of the time. Basic Invisibility is a mental illusion that only effects living things. So the camera is never fooled by basic Invisibility. As for Improved Invisibility that will only fool a cyber eye camera if there were at least 3, probably 4, successes on the casting roll, due to needing to overcome object resistance.

Multiple fire would work well for mages on full dodge, the -1 die from each attack means that you'll whittle down their dodge pool to nothin in pretty short order for that one IP. Drones with guns work well in concert with a delayed shooting action. Let the drones go first to start stacking up penalties on the mage, then pop out and let him try and dodge with -4 or -5 dice.

I wonder if a gas grenade that would suspend a living creature like yeast or bacteria in air would prevent astral perception and projection?

Also, try and work on the stun track, since they'll likely take stun damage from casting, they'll help you knock them out.

A yeast bomb? This... amuses me. So much potential for humor, and it would probably work too. I'll have to remember that If I ever do my Archie McPhee based one-shot.

I was under the impression that you were not able to astrally move through living creatures in 4th edition, but I could be wrong about that. In which case the idea isn't viable.

We used to use a netgun with nets that had been inundated with FAB II. Nothing quite like watching a spirit getting wrapped up to brighten your day. If nothing else, it forced the thing back to the metaplanes temporarily.

Yes, you can still move through living creatures in 4th ed. The rule to detect skelping is still there.

The cyber-eyes are counted as part of the holistic being, becasue Essence was paid for them. Other wise Mages with cyber-eye could never cast LOS spells ever again, but they can, as mentioned in the section on casting through optics. However, I, as a theoretical GM, would say that the cyber-eye camera being a purely mechanical device, recording to digital memory with out going through a living brain, is not part of the holistic being or fooled by basic Invisibility. Thus, to bypass Invisibility with the camera in real time, you'd need to be constantly playing the camera's recording up in a corner of your HUD. Doable, but I'd still require a perception test based on how long the Mage was wandering around in camera's field of vision and how sneaky the mage was/ wasn't being. And if the entire HUD was replaced with the camera's recording I'd apply a -1 or -2 penelty minimum to represent lag and disorientation.

yeah. much easier to say it affects the camera too. Keep an already limited use spell from being even less valuable.

Really, it's the same argument as Eyeball drones. When docked, they're cyberware and subject to mana spells. When deployed, they're machines with an object resistance.

How is the digital recording affected by mana spells? Much easier? Not really.

Aren't mana spells affecting other senses subject to recording via sim rig? Illusion spells affect the target's sense, so in my opinion any recording made using that sense will show the illusion.

Changed my mind.

If you don't mind digging up Man & Machine, the slick and insta-foam grenades should provide a good deal of annoyance

That is an interesting angle Rotbart - makes basic Invisibility useless against cybered guards except for combat purposes. I like! (and shall NOT warn the players )

Theoretically, you could make it useless in combat, too - just run Edit on your Cybereyes and let it add an glowing orange outline to every person it finds.

If there is a disagreement that the cyebreye camera cannot be used to circumvent invisibility just use the guncamera in your smartgun link. Having a HUD window for “seeing” what you cannot see is a damn good idea.

Especially since the general consensus seems to be that magic is generally far superior to tech. Let tech take a little back....

And yes, I agree with the lag idea. If you're watching it live, it's fooled. You'd have to watch it offset (even as little as .5 seconds) to see the recording. So every moment, you're not watching the world, you're watching the world .5 seconds ago. Things are in minutely different places (or signifcantly, if you're moving at 200 mph). If you've ever had a cell phone conversation with someone on the other side of a window, you know just how disorienting it is when their words don't match their mouths.

yep. thats why time and time again, the book refers to cybereyes as being the user's natural vision. If you paid essence for it, it's part of your natural being. thus, an astrally projecting mage can't pass through an astrally perceiving magician's cyberarm.

It's kinda moot anyway, at least in my experience. I don't think I've ever seen a mage take regular Invisibility. They always go the physical route because of how prevelant cameras are.

nice to see a coment of mine spawned this long of a thread

most the discussion so far seems to be focused on LOS and visibility... from the mages end at that.

Generaly, any sam worth the name will have some decent upgrades in his cybereyes. and ultrasound is a very usefull thing to have as well (see invisible).

one thing i didnt see mentioned- the olfactory booster, or cybernose. this thing can give you chemical readouts. if you input known smells wich are rare outside of magical use, then you can be aware of when your near those who use magical paraphanalia (mages, talismongers, and wannabees). that right there can be an important clue for situational awareness.

generaly, if a mage needs to set up his spells, he will do so before atatcking you (mage has suprise advantage), or from behind a barrier (magical or otherwise). not all mages have acess to all spells- but its not all the fancy spells that make a mage deadly.

the first weakness of a mage, is sustaining and binding. for each spell sustain, and each bound spirit 'on hand', you have a -2 penalty. so your big-mojo caster with magic 5 and spellcating 5, can only do so much before he loses a lot of ability. at the maximum, he could have 5 spells/spirits at a time, at which point he cant cast anymore spells. while getting 4 IP is worth it for a -2, most other buffs are not going to be as good of a tradeoff.

the second weakness of a mage, is drain. he is losing his health to his own magic, as much as he is to your gunfire. a smart mage will use a gun instead of a spell whenever he has a choice. bullets take less effort to shoot. not every mage will have a problem with drain, but the random factor can come up at any time.

the thrid weakness of the mage, is suprise. if you take a mage by suprise hes at a major disadvantage to a sam. never assume you will have this edge.

Now, when a sam is going up against a mage who is ready for him- if he knows a mage will be there, he should bring his own mage along for counterspelling and banishing. anything else his mage does is icing on the cake. if the mage suprises tha sam completely- geek the mage. identify your target, and down him ASAP. if you cannot do this, then retreat. use smoke, use gernades, use supression fire.

remember, an astral mage cannot chuck spells at you. the worst an astral mage can do is direct spirits, and tell security where you are.

-2 dice per bound spirit is an optional rule, and most spells that are worth keeping up all the time will be sustained. It's true that not every mage has sustaining foci, but if your strategies are based on beating the ones that do, the ones that don't will be much easier.

I agree, to some extent. But at the same time, if you have 5 mages on both sides, you're just watching spells get countered, and nothing happen.

If you have one mage running cover, and 3 guys shooting holes, then things work better.

Which I think is one of the key things against mages - all it takes is one mage to neutralize a team of mages (basically). Saying you have to have a mage isn't a bad thing. Because you also have to have a Sam, imho.

One mage trying to counter a team of mages would die quickly. Not as quick as a team without a mage would die, but quickly nonetheless. He'd be overwhelmed by spells.

Here's an idea...but it requires a mage. Since LOS is required for casting...why not just summon a high-force (6+) Spirit of Water and have him conceal you? Anyone with a perception test pool less than the spirit's force won't even be able to make the test, and you can cast away without fear of magical reprisal.

I'm still not sure why the conversation had to move past "shoot them, or blow them up."

I've got a character who keeps smoke grenades in his armor rigged to his PAN, so that they can be set off with a thought. Backing away through a cloud of smoke banging away with the ultrasonic and suppressing the general direction of the mage is a decent way to survive those first couple of seconds...

...need a weapon like the one discussed in the Elven Gun thread.

Out of sight = Out of spell range = one dead mage = one Happy Sammy

Just use a high AP gun with very sensitive sensory-arrays. Shoot through cover, rinse, repeat. I like it.

Make sure to have Ultrasound capability, or at least some serious hearing and/or olfactory augmentation - you don't want the invisible bastard sneaking up on you.

Wear a camouflage suit or better yet a chameleon suit. Don't forget thermal dampening. If he gets to be invisible you should, too!

Try a submachine gun or machine pistol loaded with Stick 'n Shock rounds. The mage gets half impact armor, so even the armor spell won't necessarily help. Plus, if you get any damage through the mage has a good chance of being stunned. Why an autofire weapon? Because wide bursts are just what the Dr. ordered for Combat Sense foci.

Mount a high intensity flashlight on that SMG - unless the mage shelled out for flare comp he could get a glare penalty. While we're talking glare, carry a flashpack. You can throw it out from behind full cover and hopefully not get smoked instantly by a manabolt. Thermal smoke is good, too. Even without the ultrasound you can still shoot at a -6 blindfire penalty while the mage can do nothing. A periscope/smartlink camera to fire around corners wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

Be prepared to deal with pain! The mage is going to get one in on you sooner or later. If it's a stun spell (and plenty of folks on the boards say they're the most powerful) you can handle it with a Stim patch. Keep that Stim patch handy!! Tape the backing to your belt or inside your coat, so you can rip it off one handed and slap it on your neck in a single, smooth motion. Make sure you can get to it left handed, it doesn't look very manly when you drop your H&K while screaming in pain. You might also want to invest in Damage Compensator bioware or an Adrenal Pump. Either will keep you on your feet through that first blast of Stunbolt - at least long enough for you to fill the unfortunate spellworm full of lead (or lead azide explosives, if that's your huckleberry).

Upgrade your armor - Fire Resistance, Insulation, Non-Conductivity, etc. Mages like elemental spells sometimes. Since those involve an attack test, invest in your Dodge skill to get out of the way of them.

Get some friends. Mages are supposed to be rare, so there shouldn't be gobs of them. Chrome, on the other hand, is surprisingly cheap. Make sure to spread out so you don't all get fireballed. If one of those friends is a rigger - awesome. We all know drones work great.

Use Edge. Again, mages are supposedly rare, so they ought to be worth the expenditure.

To put it all together - try to get a surprise shot. Preferably from far away with lots of friends. Failing that, try to damp his visibility through whatever means possible while slinging lots of lead. If he gets the drop on you, try to stim patch it and get to full cover ASAP. Use your gun periscope or smartlink to shoot around it while thermal smoke begins to fill the room. If you still can't see him, throw out a microdrone (or get your rigger to use a regular one) and get a sensor bead on the joker. Don't panic. Clear LOS. Locate the threat. Take action.

Samurai suceed against magicians, and everybody else, by doing what they've always done best, by doing what they're built for - striking hard and fast from behind cover and with surprise.

Also keep in mind that samurai are tough. There's a good chance of surviving the first Manabolt or Flamethrower, especially with a little luck on the dice, and then blasting back with an Ingram Smartgun long burst doing 10P being pushed by a dice pool of 12 including Edge. (AGI 6, Automatics 5, Edge 3, smartgun +2, -2 wounds, -2 recoil.)

1 Doberman (With good gun, Ares Alpha is nice)
4+ Flash bangs
4+ Flash Packs
1 Can of Glue Spray

Stick the grenades and flash packs to strategic locations on the Doberman so that they are facing in ALL directions. Let it go at full speed straight into a group of combatants (mages etc) and let the drone activate everything with a wireless command to all items stuck to it.

The drone takes no damage from stun weapons but everyone within 10 meters will have a problem.

Since we have reduced their signal rating to 0 they only reach 3 meters so it’s close enough for the Doberman to command them but to far away for hacking.