Let the TM's player decide. Give him the info presented on this thread about how to play the TM better, and give him the option to switch out to something else. If he wants to give the TM another chance using the tips and tricks that have been mentioned, let him. If he wants to switch to something with guns and fireballs and fastcars, let him.

I think thats prebably the best option. Which I mean to say, that letting the player decide what will be funnest for him is the best option.

BTW Wasabi, that was an awesome post

perhaps another option would be to allow the TM some options to "re-write" his character. maybe not to re-write the entire thing, but give him the chance to change a few things (you can make it through some pact with a free sprite or something (or maybe just an AI), but let him remake a few decisions about how his character is built.

At the moment, 100% of the TMs power comes from sprites. And the bug that registereing sprites costs nothing.

This is not the way it is meant to be.

TMs ahve to be played like TMs, they simply lack the flexibility to be a Matrix Fixer, Brutish Matrix Bodyguard or anything except the puppetmasters they are. They can depart from puppetmastering for short periods but all in all there is a very finite number of ways they can shine.

Oh, and they DO shine.

What I'm reading above, Wiseman, is that you and your player both dislike the style TMs are forced to follow and you know, thats a-ok. Go with what you enjoy.

As to your player respec'cing, you could always have a submerged TM go into the deep resonance to re-code himself or somesuch.

Lastly, regarding the commlink implanted in the hacker... a TM can use a commlink inside a micro or mini drone flying several KILOMETERS above the objective. A believe the spot roll for spotting a microdrone a couple of miles away could be... difficult.

I know, I know... TMs are hedged into a narrow set of tools and a narrower set of methods, but if those coincide with what you think is fun, they rock.

He was joking. It's a "grievously poor game design" that coincidentally(!) runs counter to the other one of TM "weakness."

Playing a TM, I would have to go with the suppression delays the 'workings' but unless somebody is in as admin WHEN the alarm goes off... no re-routing.

Basically when triggered the computer 'sends an alarm to Admin' the suppression power somehow mystically cause those electrons to flow at the speed of molasses...

nothing the computer can do will stop them from going to the original destination but they somehow hit a time-warp.

Now the one I WOULD allow in my games is the trigger spam overload.

Sprite triggers alarm and suppresses it, notifes another sprite (or TM) and at the right time the flood the recipients of the alert with a few million spams, (requiring a perception test to catch the 'alert' in the spam).

Well within the 'intent' (in my opinion anyways) (havent tried this tactic with my TM yet, since havent really needed to. Stealth is the one thing I have never had a problem with if a 10 stealth for 5 turns wont get me in something NOTHING will)

peace

you could also just cause the commlink to reboot a second before the alarm warns anyone.

and change the logs to show no alert beforehand, and to make it appear some minor indeterminate software glitch has occurred, or something, which caused it to happen (probably best to make this happen a few times to get them used to it before creating your new accounts permanently)

the commlink is not on. there's no possible way for the alarm to go anywhere, because the alarm works within the commlink. the system may be designed to let someone know when an alarm activates, but ultimately, the alarm itself stays within the device/node/PAN/whatever in which it is triggered.

Ugh...using PAB and Hot Sim to reprogram a TM would be NASTY.

I don't allow hackers to hack TMs. Since hackers can't spoof Sprites because they are alien resonance beings I also say that hackers can't hack TMs because they work on spooky alien resonance. I might allow other TMs to sleaze into a TM's brain by trying to spoof the TM like he was a Sprite. Compiling to gain access and then hack as normal.

I think I run sprites a lot differently than some others seem too. Players don't get to control them when they are remote. I do. And they almost never do exactly what you want. A rating 6 crack sprite in my game wouldn't even try to edit an alarm to send it to the TM. It'd be more interested in not raising an alarm at all. It's a crack sprite, it lives to break into systems without being detected.

I have both a hacker and a technomancer in my current campaign However, during character creation I did limit availability to 8 instead of the normal 12.

The goal of this was specifically to limit my characters to a lower level type of campaign, however it also had the effect of bringing hackers and technomancers closer together.

Now as my team earns some nuyen the hacker can simply purchase better programs much faster then a technomancer can learn new complex forms. But, when I compare the power of a technomancer versus the hacker I have to say that the technomancer wins out. Here is why:

In shadowrun, the guy who wins is often faster and / or has more actions. Even if your less effective you can still wear your opponent down. Note this is a general rule of thumb and exceptions always occur.

Technomancers are faster then hackers in the matrix. They are always hot when they go VR, they get extra dice when in full VR, and have 3 actions (just like hackers). They can also submerge and get a 4th action in the matrix, starting the theory of faster is better.

Also, technomancers can summon sprites on a whim and compile them. Hackers can also get pilot programs to assist them, however technomancers get to have sprites from the get go, while hackers need to save up some serious nuyen to get an effective pilot program. Also, a hackers pilot programs are never as effective or diverse as a technomancers sprites.

When you add it all up, technomancers appear to start off weaker because they have complex forms and hackers tend to have every program available at 6. But, they can never run a program higher then 6 (the max system until a matrix book comes out). Technomancers can thread programs to a whopping 12 as a starting character and that only goes up! Technomancers can summon sprits at will, hackers have to invest serious build points or nuyen to get sprites and they aren't as effective.

So in the end, I think that technomancers may be more difficult to build as a starting character, but they are no less effective in an experienced players hand then a hacker.

I think Cradle Worm hit it on the head there. TMs perform better in experienced hands. I think they'd be harder to play for people who are just starting SR4. A hacker would be better to start with, until you are very familiar with the matrix rules, and how the GM is running the matrix. Once you've gotten all that down I think you'd find that TMs are as good or better.

Actually, can't a Hacker just program a System at a rating higher than 6, and then the programs to go with it? Granted, that will take forever, but still...it is possible.

Sure. And run it on what hardware?

You could, but since the max response that can be bought is rating 6, thats what your system and programs will run at too.

I thought you could buy higher? Or maybe just buy the parts and build your own? Now again, build time is going to set the Hacker back quite a bit, and probably take much longer than it will for the technomancer...this hearkens back to the usual line about magicians having better upgrade potential, while tech characters are better off branching out (a max rating 6 hacker maybe picking up some drones, for example)

My group tried to calculate it out at one point to see how high Corporations could have their systems at to prevent hackers. It took something like a team of 40 working in various departments to pump out one rating in a couple of years. So if Renraku had started building the ultimate machine right after the crash happened it could have a node at ratings all higher than 6 by 2070.

That is a little disheartening...Hackers start off basically capped in power (c'mon, you're gonna go Response 6 the minute you get paid from your first run), while Technomancers can only go up from there. Ah well...it really does seem like SR4 was created to be a bit harsh to technological characters.

Why? For a little more cash for higher rating programs, you can run just as many, with the same amount of penalty, and get way more power out of it, to boot. There's no real advantage to running low rating programs that I can see.

Sure, but why not just run 10+ rating 6 programs and another 7 agents? You'd have the same dice penalty, since you're running the same number of programs. The difference is, they'll be much more effective.

Well, we can either say that everything corporate is AT LEAST rating 5+ or think back about the fact that if everything is cutting edge at 6 then there has to be variations in security. High security has rating 6 that i totally agree with but for hacking wireless networks like drones they would mostly be 3-4, very few will have a response of 5-6 due to the cost, only the biggest corps would have the budget to actually increase the response of an army of drones.

The problem with playing that "all" have rating 6 programs and max out response and corporations have at least 5+ security is that there is no room to grow. The game have a lower setting than in SR3 so the "street level" of the game kinda dissapears when everyone and his grandmother has skills of 6 and rating 6 programs - feels wrong to me.

Still, we just might have a different view on how we run our game is all.

If you're hacking drones, 3-4 is reasonable. The thing is, wouldn't you need to hack the commlink that they're subscribed to first? And that guy sure sure to have a rating 5-6 in everything, he's a professional.

Most of a hacker's time, in my experience, is spent facing off against hardened matrix targets and other hackers. You just can't face that with rating 4 programs and an army of agents.

Wow, lots of good advice and ideas spinning here, and I'm happy to say its helped.

So we tweaked the TM a good bit, shifting around some points and since he had some karma to spend as well, there was a little min/max going on (I chose to look away).

Now the two seem to be more on an even field, as far as playability (in general at least). Though the hacker is still far more versatile, he's beginning to become a bit scared of the TM. (I like this).

The TM is starting to RP a lot more mystery and secrecy, and with the sprites (which are GM rp'd by me) having some funny arguements/conversations with the TM, its really added a good bit of color to the matrix and the TM in particular.

So this is what i'm seeing now, a much stranger dynamic with the TM and hacker which is a good thing. The hacker is still getting a lot more action of course, especially in the physical, AR, and with his agents (which he's seemed to emphasize more in compensation for the TM's sprites), but the TM is now trusted to not be trusted and to do something wholly unexpected when its most needed.

The TM is spending a lot of time waiting in the car though, but with the use of drones, I feel like he's still getting to participate mostly. (The hacker seems to think drones should be his turf, but the other players have been keen to divide the "electronic spoils" between them).

The ONLY glaring gap i'm still noticing is when it comes to skills. The hacker is doing a lot of stuff with even minor ranks in things like Locksmith and Forgery and social skills, while his skillwires make him a decent everyman in a pinch. The TM is almost completely matrix based (with I think dodge, two types of pilot, and gunnery)

But at one point when things got a little heated between the two, the hacker (who tended to bully the TM a bit initially) seems to have backed down with more than a little fear.

I must say thanks again to the many different thoughts and approaches to this problem that ultimately let the TM player feel out some different options and which allowed me to properly emphasize the TM weirdness.

I'm still not entirely certain that the TM is a "positive quality" but it IS only a 5pt difference.

My final thought after purchasing street magic (really well done by the way for those of you who haven't picked it up), is that with similar concepts applied to the TM, they really will have some better options that will seal the advantage (however slight) even if a good number of new programs are released. Whenever the damn unwired book comes out. Until then, I can't say I feel TM's and in a small part hackers aren't finish. (I want the smoke, tar pits, and some other revised programs back)

So the end summary is that the inexperience of both myself and the player started to lean down a road I wasn't pleased with, and with a few minor adjustments to play style and the character in question, things are looking up.