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BRodda
I'm making an adept and I want to check my math.
If I take the missile power that lets you turn cards and pens into deadly weapons and stack it with the increased throwing power (I don't have the books in front of me and I forget the real names) is there a limit to the stacking?

Currently I'm looking at my strength 4 adept with the missile power and 4 levels of the throwing ability. That gives him +8 STR for throwing damage. So with a simple pen that means I am doing 6P damage [4+8]/2. If my reflexes are 5 that means I can throw 3 items a round. So that's 3 6P damage attacks with a pen. If I use a throwing ax I get the +1 to all weapon damage so that means I'll have 3 [4+8]/2 base +1 missile master +2 for ax. So that's 3 9P attacks a round... eek.gif

This only gets sillier if I take boost attribute 3 times for STR. That means a card will be doing 8P and the ax will do 11P.

Is my math OK and is that a bit to twinky?
Grinder
On first glance I would say that your math is correct. And yes, it makes some badass adepts. Judging solely from reading alone, Power Throw/ Mighty Throw is too unbalanced.
WhiskeyMac
Isn't there a thread on here where the author of the power basically said that the STR bonus was only used to determine range and not damage? Or am I seriously mistaking my memory?
Rotbart van Dainig
Actually, it applies to both.

What the author didn't like was the fact that as a result of imprecise wording, the power modifies Strength (even though it does so conditionally), and thus would be restricted by the Augmented Attribute Cap.

Ironically, this keeps powers like Power Throw, Combat Sense, etc. in check...
BRodda
QUOTE (Grinder)
On first glance I would say that your math is correct. And yes, it makes some badass adepts. Judging solely from reading alone, Power Throw/ Mighty Throw is too unbalanced.

That's what I was thinking. I'm making a kid from the barrens and I figures I wanted him to use as much homemade weaponry as possible (the only gun I bought is a Streetline Special and he only has that so he doesn't look odd not having a gun and for intimidation).
So I figures having him chuck sharpened pieces of plascrete and fiberglass would be cool. Next thing I know I'm looking at a person who can drop a troll at 5 meters with a business card. biggrin.gif
I hate twinky min-maxed characters and this just screams "Come and see the violence inherent in the system!"

So far I have him with the following Adept powers:
Missile Master (or whatever): 1
Mighty Throw (4 levels):1
Armour (2): 1
Boost Strength (3): .75
Missile Catch:.25

Then I'm taking 2 dice in magic as an shaman.

Considering I'm only starting with 5K nuyen.gif as a self imposed limit I have decent skills. I'll post the entire toon when I'm done. Needless to say he has throwing 5.
hobgoblin
but it allso made it useless to buy mroe then 2-3 levels of said power as it hit the modified attrib max barrier very quickly.

and i belive the expence of the magic rating (with initiation and all that) plus the straight cost of levels of the power adds up to a very nice barrier without invoking the attribute barrier.

sure, this means a adept can use allmost anything as a weapon, but it allso cuts into whatever else he can get given that money for weapons comes out of the same pool as the points used to buy adept powers.

so the only advantage he have over a equiped samurai is that he cant be disarmed. but get a smg or similar in a cyberholster, and with a bit of luck the guards will not notice that (sure they may spot the leg, but if they dont bother to scan they may not spot the holster).

and 3 attacks pr round? not unless you have multiple IPs. it will take a single action to ready 3 items with your 5 reflexes, then it will take a simple action to throw each of them. thats 4 simple actions in my view, so atleast two Ips needed.

with a SMG on full auto i can engage atleast that many targets in a single complex action.

so in the end i only see it as potentialy broken in the high end game as there isnt a upper limit (if one disregard the STR limiter, and its existence is debateable at best), but the cost will after some time be in the area of insane. oh and maybe the more or less perfect concealability of the power.

i see it more of a problem that the firearms of a samurai cant keep up with the high end game. but that have allways been the diffrence between the samurai and the adept. strong out of the gate (samurai) vs long time power (adept).
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
but it allso made it useless to buy mroe then 2-3 levels of said power as it hit the modified attrib max barrier very quickly.

Sure. But adding exceptions basically defeats the very idea of an absolute cap.
BRodda
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
but it allso made it useless to buy mroe then 2-3 levels of said power as it hit the modified attrib max barrier very quickly.

and i belive the expence of the magic rating (with initiation and all that) plus the straight cost of levels of the power adds up to a very nice barrier without invoking the attribute barrier.

sure, this means a adept can use allmost anything as a weapon, but it allso cuts into whatever else he can get given that money for weapons comes out of the same pool as the points used to buy adept powers.

so the only advantage he have over a equiped samurai is that he cant be disarmed. but get a smg or similar in a cyberholster, and with a bit of luck the guards will not notice that (sure they may spot the leg, but if they dont bother to scan they may not spot the holster).

and 3 attacks pr round? not unless you have multiple IPs. it will take a single action to ready 3 items with your 5 reflexes, then it will take a simple action to throw each of them. thats 4 simple actions in my view, so atleast two Ips needed.

with a SMG on full auto i can engage atleast that many targets in a single complex action.

so in the end i only see it as potentialy broken in the high end game as there isnt a upper limit (if one disregard the STR limiter, and its existence is debateable at best), but the cost will after some time be in the area of insane. oh and maybe the more or less perfect concealability of the power.

i see it more of a problem that the firearms of a samurai cant keep up with the high end game. but that have allways been the diffrence between the samurai and the adept. strong out of the gate (samurai) vs long time power (adept).

QUOTE
sure, this means a adept can use allmost anything as a weapon, but it allso cuts into whatever else he can get given that money for weapons comes out of the same pool as the points used to buy adept powers.


Actually adept powers are much more expensive considering I only get 6 at max for a starting character. And for those 60 BP I could by a hell of a lot of cyber and gun skills. cyber.gif

QUOTE
with a SMG on full auto i can engage at least that many targets in a single complex action.


That's part of the romance of the character. (considering dropping armor to 1 to get quick-draw). A grimey streetpunk with a sharpened piece of plastcrete vs a fully cybered Sam with an SMG. Sure I might get killed, but I'd stand a chance and the image is just to striking in my mind to let go.

Debating getting rid of the 2 dice of magic for more powers, but I'd like to keep where you drop him off tied up and naked in the middle of the Barrens and he'd be able to survive.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Sep 21 2006, 06:23 PM)
but it allso made it useless to buy mroe then 2-3 levels of said power as it hit the modified attrib max barrier very quickly.

Sure. But adding exceptions basically defeats the very idea of an absolute cap.

but then its allready stated that the power is badly worded, as it not supposed to be a general strength mod, but rather increase the damage and range of the "weapon used".

its just that as both is based of strength, its simple to say that you add to strength. this way you only have to write one number rather then writing one number of the damage mod and one number for the range mod.

so its not a expeption, but bad wording.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
so its not a expeption, but bad wording.

That's exactly the problem.
It doesn't matter how you justify an exception - it is there and will act as precedent.

Right now, until there is an errata, any temporary modifier involving attributes instead of effects is capped.
hobgoblin
so rewrite it to remove the strength reference and be happy.

something like this maybe:

"the power adds +x to the range and damage of any trown item or weapon"

and here i thought i was a rules lawyer...
Rotbart van Dainig
It this would be the only appearance of such wording gone wrong...
hobgoblin
you have other examples?
Rotbart van Dainig
The most prominent examples are bone enhancements and Combat Reflexes, Rapig Healing, etc.

There is absolutly no need to even mention attributes, if you inteded dice pool modifiers...
hobgoblin
maybe so, but its a nice way to mark what pools get affected in a general sense if your going to affect every pool where strength plays a part and so on.

it allso kind of futureproof the modifiers and its unlikely that an aditional attribute will be added wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
No, it's not really nice as it raises problems...
Mistwalker
Broda

Get a contact, or bride someone, at a range, to get the used bullets dug out of backstop. These bullets will have the rifling from the weapon that fired them.

Grin, May cause a bit of confusion when people start turning up with wounds from Lone Star / Renraku / etc.. weapons.

And I think in my game, we will not "cap" the power throw. Don't think it will be abused, because the player does not want to be a one trick pony, that can be taken out at range.
BRodda
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
Broda

Get a contact, or bride someone, at a range, to get the used bullets dug out of backstop. These bullets will have the rifling from the weapon that fired them.

Grin, May cause a bit of confusion when people start turning up with wounds from Lone Star / Renraku / etc.. weapons.

And I think in my game, we will not "cap" the power throw. Don't think it will be abused, because the player does not want to be a one trick pony, that can be taken out at range.

QUOTE
Get a contact, or bride someone, at a range, to get the used bullets dug out of backstop. These bullets will have the rifling from the weapon that fired them.


No idea where a kid from the barrens could get used bullets biggrin.gif
I'm sure there in just about every wall in every building by this point. Probably the only thing holding the buildings up.

QUOTE
And I think in my game, we will not "cap" the power throw. Don't think it will be abused, because the player does not want to be a one trick pony, that can be taken out at range.


I'm not really intending him to be a one trick pony, that's why I want the 2 dice of magic. I'm also going to be fairly skill heavy. Street smart type of skills, I'll probably have a decent Charisma due to being a shaman; still working out what goes where for attributes.
lorechaser
I just built this character as more of a traditional Wuxia monk, albeit a troll. wink.gif

Athletics at 4. Polearm at 4. Throwing at 6. Unarmed at 1, just in case. Then a bit of escape artist, leadership and perception.

I spent a lot on skills and attributes (200 on atrributes, plus Edge and Magic 6, and 116 on skills). Then picked up Synaptic 2, and the basics in gear plus a weapon focus.

Then I got some of the awesome Wuxia adept powers in SM - Wall Running, Glider so far, and going to add more as I initiate....
WorkOver
Why does this keep coming up? The very author of that power has already spoken on this power, on these boards, and has said the FAQ will set you all free.

This power DOES NOT modify strength, at all. It modifies throwing damage. This power is absolutely not affected by the strength cap, not at all, not what so ever.

Your math is correct, and yes, this combo does indeed rock.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (WorkOver)
This power DOES NOT modify strength, at all. It modifies throwing damage. This power is absolutely not affected by the strength cap, not at all, not what so ever.

This may be what was inteded, but not what was written. And those small inconsistencies still add up... it's not for the FAQ to fix them, it's already worth an errata.
Mistwalker
QUOTE (BRodda @ Sep 21 2006, 03:53 PM)

No idea where a kid from the barrens could get used bullets  biggrin.gif
I'm sure there in just about every wall in every building by this point. Probably the only thing holding the buildings up.

Ah, but the idea wasn't to use just any bullet. You want to you bullets from sepcific targets.
If you do a run against Aztec, use Knight Errant/Ares bullets., etc...
As a general rule, carry Lone Star (or what ever the local police service provider is) bullets, use them.

When forensics are done on the bullets, it just adds to the confusion, or even better, diverts suspicion from you.
The Jopp
NEWSFLASH : THE MARCHMELLOW SLAYER STRIKES AGAIN grinbig.gif

Today Mafia hitman Donatelli Fuchetti was killed in what was described as a bizarre drive-by "shooting" as a man(?) dressed in a Stay Puff Marchmellow man suit drove by on skates and peppered the hitman with what our Star sources tells us was Marchmellows.

"Details are still sketchy but it appears as the marchmellows actually punched straight through his armor and tore through him as if they were real bullets."

"After a short pursuit by local law enforcement the attacker apparently vanished but the Star are confident that they will find the killer..."
Mistwalker
Hmm, somehow I don't think that marshmellows would cause any damage, maybe at the most, a knockdown test.

The Jopp
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
Hmm, somehow I don't think that marshmellows would cause any damage, maybe at the most, a knockdown test.

Actually they can. An adept with missile mastery can choose wether a weapon that normally inflicts stun can do physical instead.

Magic can do some wonderful things, and a marchmellow in the hands of a troll with STR 8 and Power Throw 6 flings that deadly marchmellow with 7S or 7P.

I wonder if one could have an an adept that has evolved his ability into spitting instead.

Full auto water melon seed spitting. rotfl.gif

PTOW!
Warmaster Lah
Fantastic character idea. I do really enjoy the concept.

Uh, but dont get arrested for bad Card Puns.

Heh heh.

The Jopp
QUOTE (Warmaster Lah)
Fantastic character idea. I do really enjoy the concept.

Uh, but dont get arrested for bad Card Puns.

Heh heh.

What, like being the fastest dealer in the west? biggrin.gif

lorechaser
QUOTE (The Jopp)
Magic can do some wonderful things, and a marchmellow in the hands of a troll with STR 8 and Power Throw 6 flings that deadly marchmellow with 7S or 7P.

Actually, an improvised weapon is str/2. Power Throw adds 2 str per point. And Missle Mastery adds +1 to the DV after that.

So that's 8+12 = 20 effective Str. So 20/2+1. 11P wink.gif

Mistwalker
Actually, the extra point of DV is only added to normal throwing weapons like shurikens or knives, not to the impovised
So, it would be 10 DV for any improvised throwing weapons.

I am still having problems seeing marshmellows doing that amount of damage, hmm, maybe if they were frozen.

I have a troll in my campaign that is deadly with improvised throwing weapons, and he always carries a bag of something (pebbles, gravel, marbles, etc..), and a bag of jacks.
Sits at meetings, during surveillance, etc... playing jacks, and kills people with them as a last resort, as he hates to lose any of his toys
Smity
And how would you name this character, Gambito? rotfl.gif
lorechaser
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
Actually, the extra point of DV is only added to normal throwing weapons like shurikens or knives, not to the impovised
So, it would be 10 DV for any improvised throwing weapons.

Not by my reading.

It says that the character adds +1 to the DV of any non-explosive throwing weapon.

It then defines the damage of an improvised thrown weapon.

I guess the key is whether you consider and improvised thrown weapon to be a thrown weapon.

To me, yes, it's a thrown weapon.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
I am still having problems seeing marshmellows doing that amount of damage, hmm, maybe if they were frozen.

It's magic.
hyzmarca
It would be nice to have an adept power that does this to melee weapons so that someone can recreate the dude from Shibumi and kill people with folded paper cups and rolled up newspapers.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (lorechaser)
QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Sep 22 2006, 11:45 AM)
Actually, the extra point of DV is only added to normal throwing weapons like shurikens or knives, not to the impovised
So, it would be 10 DV for any improvised throwing weapons.

Not by my reading.

It says that the character adds +1 to the DV of any non-explosive throwing weapon.

It then defines the damage of an improvised thrown weapon.

I guess the key is whether you consider and improvised thrown weapon to be a thrown weapon.

To me, yes, it's a thrown weapon.

Look, a shuriken should have at least a minor advantage over a business card - that's that +1 to non-improvised thrown weapons, ok?
lorechaser
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
Look, a shuriken should have at least a minor advantage over a business card - that's that +1 to non-improvised thrown weapons, ok?

But why? I mean, assuming we're accepting that it's magic that makes the damage, why does it matter if it's a shuriken, or a pointed rock, or a quarter?

That's kind of the entire point of that power, really - a business card is just as deadly in his hands as a shuriken.

I can see how you might want to house rule that, it if concerns you, but the text never says that it's +1 to non-improvised weapons, simply +1 to non-explosive weapons...

Mr. Unpronounceable
Yes, but since the damage is defined after the damage bonus is mentioned, it should indicate whether or not the bonus should be applied...but it does not.
If it was formatted so that improvised weapon damage came first, then the +1 to all non-explosive thrown weapons was mentioned, it would be clear that it was intended. (Maybe it'll show up in the eventual errata along with ward clarifications, etc.)

Anyway, my thinking was, at least a shuriken is sharp After all, if a quarter is as dangerous as a shuriken because of this power, why isn't it as dangerous as a knife?

[anal bastard]
though realistically - the damage from shuriken should be poison-based, not trauma-based
[/anal bastard]

biggrin.gif
Tekumel
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
It would be nice to have an adept power that does this to melee weapons so that someone can recreate the dude from Shibumi and kill people with folded paper cups and rolled up newspapers.

...oh dear god. An improvised throwing weapons specialized adept...add a bicycle...baseball cap...bag over his shoulder...

PAPERBOY!
X-Kalibur
Is this "PenIs Mightier" the replacement to the Mr. Studd? rotfl.gif
knasser
QUOTE (The Jopp)
QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Sep 22 2006, 12:36 PM)
Hmm, somehow I don't think that marshmellows would cause any damage, maybe at the most, a knockdown test.

Actually they can. An adept with missile mastery can choose wether a weapon that normally inflicts stun can do physical instead.

Magic can do some wonderful things, and a marchmellow in the hands of a troll with STR 8 and Power Throw 6 flings that deadly marchmellow with 7S or 7P.

I wonder if one could have an an adept that has evolved his ability into spitting instead.

Full auto water melon seed spitting. rotfl.gif

PTOW!


rotfl.gif That would be an excellent party trick. No need for a fire to roast the marshmallows with andymore. The adept just stands at one side of the lawn and flicks them 15m into people's mouths. By the time they hit your tongue, air friction has done them just right.

Next up - frizbee pizzas.
hyzmarca
They better have missile parry if they want to catch the marshmellows in their mouths, rather being severly bruised and probably losing some teeth..
Squinky
The damage on these powers dont bother me so much, its the insane range you can get, even further than some firearms....
hobgoblin
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
It would be nice to have an adept power that does this to melee weapons so that someone can recreate the dude from Shibumi and kill people with folded paper cups and rolled up newspapers.

killing hands and a GM's ok should take care of that.
Critias
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 22 2006, 07:45 PM)
It would be nice to have an adept power that does this to melee weapons so that someone can recreate the dude from Shibumi and kill people with folded paper cups and rolled up newspapers.

killing hands and a GM's ok should take care of that.

The problem with Killing Hands and a GM's okay is that it sets a precedent for someone to want to do so not with improvised weapons, but with real ones. "I want this weapon focus dikoted katana to get extra damage from my killing hands, too. If he can do it with a rolled up newspaper, why can't I do it with my sword?" It also opens doors towards Reach bonuses and whatnot, if it's just a freebie add-on to Killing Hands.

I think the easiest way would actually be a Geas on Killing Hands (and/or Critical Strike), requiring that the character be wielding an improvised weapon to get his damage. I once made up a Bullseye-type for SR3 that, rather than bothering with Throwing and Missile Mastery and whatnot (which wasn't nearly as dangerous as it is in SR4), had a Geas on his Killing Hands/Distance Strike that he have an object of opportunity to hurl as the act of activating his magic. Declaring his intent, if you will, by hurling a paperclip at someone -- then smacking them for the usual Distance Strike damage.

Geas it similarly on the Killing Hands itself, and I think it'd be pretty balanced. Unarmed completely, they're just an everyday schmuck. It takes away the "best of both worlds" aspect of just the GM's approval (which starts the path on a slippery slope).
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
[...] and a GM's ok should take care of that.

Yes, that does it everytime.
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