The team is heading off for a run when they encounter a group of ghouls. The ghouls run up and attack.

The Shaman lends his Counterspelling to the group and then Stunball Area Effects everyone (party and ghouls).

Now the Ghouls get 5 whole dice to roll and need success on all of them to not pass out. And yea, I forgot to use Edge dice here but I don;t think it would have mattered much.

Some of the party is put to sleep but ALL of the ghouls are out. The consious runners kill the sleeping ghouls before waking up the members that fell asleep.

Then off they go.

Also, the Shaman likes to call up an Earth Elemental that can pretty much take out one enemy every couple of turns. It's engulfs them which takes them out of the fight and then starts dealing tons of damage to the captured enemy every round. Usually after being engulfed darn near anyone can die after 2 rounds inside. It's brutal.

I guess it's true "Geek the Mage first."... if you get the chance.

Looks about right. Opposition without either magical backup or terrain that hinders the mage is going to be walked over. I do have one question though, how did they "wake up" the party members? Generally stun ball knowcks you out from stun damage and then you have to heal it to be up and about again.

stim patches?

Sounds like he is trying to turn his team into stim addicts *S*.

Play up the pain (and maxed but one condition monitor when the unconscious ones wake up) experienced by his teammates. Unless there were a lot of ghouls, or they had really dangerous weapons, I'd be pretty pissed at my "buddy" for hitting me with a spell.

"Dude, I could handle it! It's just some blind rotting guy with sharp nails against my monowhip!"

Earth spirits are actually the worst Engulf spirits in the game. Their extra strength doesn't get them extra damage, and their low agility make them the worst at actually getting hits. Fire is better if you really need physical damage, but obviously a Shaman doesn't have that option. Still, if he was smart he'd be using Air spirits. They can generally knock someone out faster than an Earth spirit can kill it, and defend better, too.

Actually, Stim Patches don't even do that in SR4. We assumed they did, but look at the rules.

They allow you to ignore the wound penalties for a number of boxes of stun damage equal to their ratings. They don't heal stun damage at all.

OF course, if you can convince your GM that unconsciousness is a wound penalty you're fine.

IMO:

Your problem was that the Ghouls attacked like retards. I know Ghouls have reduced intelligence and all, but still. Sounds like they all massed up and charged at the PCs in one massive mob, perhaps all neatly lined up.

You should've had the Ghouls come at the runners from differant angles. Since spells are LOS, the mage would only have been able to zap 1 group at a time. Further, you can have the Ghouls come in crawling and jumping around debris and stuff, giving them cover. Remember, cover penalities apply to LOS. Ghouls are probably used to attacking people with guns, while they themselves don't have any. Thus, Ghouls have probably evolved tactics that involve lots of cover and making the targets waste ammo.

Lastly, Ghouls can have shamans amongst them also. If the mage of the group is being "overpowered", time to even it up with your own magic.

Man, if I was one of the members of that team I would have geeked the mage myself. WTF was he thinking stunballing his own chummers. That's the kinda shit that makes people think you're a corp stooge or an Intelligence 1 player (not character but player). Blasting your own teammates with magic is a good way to come back from astral patrol with no arms, no legs and stuffed in a backpack that is slung over the street samurai's shoulders with your head poking out. There were a lot better ways for the team to clean out those ghouls than letting the team mage pop a stunball on them.

The ghouls definitely should have had at least some tactics to their attack beyond "ZERG RUSH!" Make them jump and use cover next time. Even better, make them use weapons. They are of lower intelligence but that doesn't mean they are zombies. That's what Shedim are for.

Or use the ones that rush up on the PC's as the more feral types that crash in and disrupt while the ghouls with some brain matter still intact exploit the chaos that ensues.

We used to have this problem with a mage, but it wasn't stunballs he hit us with "on accident". It was fireballs. He died. We killed him. We never trusted another mage that knew fireball.

That would equal a karma penalty in my games, for lack of roleplaying. Nobody wants to get there asses kamikazed for no good reason....

IF you're refering to my comment, we didn't kill him the first time it happened. We yelled at him. And again the second time. There was some fist shaking the third time. By then we wanted him to play a diff character, but the GM kept him in, and he stuck w/ the character (honestly, because the player wasn't very smart, and managed to get a lot of his characters offed). It was the 6th or so time we had had enough.

Nope, I was reffering to the initial post. What you guys did made sense, if someone you are teaming with treats you like that, in the violent world of Shadowrun they get what they deserve.

The shaman was using poor tactics. Ghouls are dual-natured. All that he had to do was astrally percieve, and cast a stunball on the astral plane. He would have still wiped out the ghouls, but his mundane teammates wouldn't have been affected at all.

Not a penalty so much, just that any characters that did that kind of silly crap would'nt get the normal point of karma for good roleplaying. I think we can all agree that treating your character like a computer game character isn't good roleplaying.

The initial poster posted in a manner that, to me, meant he thought it wasn't a life or death decision, but a cheesy move.

Just on a note, the new Shadowrun novels talk about a spell that "painlessly puts non-magicals to sleep". I wouldn't be surprised if that's where the myth comes from.

I used StunBOLT in my playtest session tonight and EXPECTED it to just be a knockout till I really read the damage code for it.

sleep spells would probably be a mental manipulation spell. in fact, i can think of a few that would do the trick... influence probably being one of the best (on account of once permanent, it is no longer resisted until someone else questions what the person is doing).

I dunno, it really depends on how many ghouls there were and whether or not the players could've reasonably taken them out without sustaining heavy damage. If so, then the stunball was a pretty stupid tactic, because the shaman's teammates would be sporting some hefty wound penalties for the rest of the run. I'll be pretty damn pissed if the team mage drops a stunball on me every time we encounter any opposition, counterspelling or no counterspelling.

If not, if the team wouldn't have been able to defeat the ghouls otherwise, then yeah, the shaman played it right. Although, as Glyph said, there was a universally better solution to the problem that wasn't applied in this situation.

who says you only ever want to put people to sleep when you're in the middle of combat?

GM of the game..

Agree the only real action is:

1) If the stun damage caused a delay in the timetable. (No way to heal stun save an hour of complete rest.... (so if party KNOCKED out, they down for atleast one complete hour, and likely a few more until no modifers) (now as a I am EVIL GM note: Sewers are a VERY VERY bad place to be lying unconcious for a full hour, and the while Stims allow you to ignore the modifers they dont say they awake you from unconcousness!

2) If the below becomes a problem and the GM intervenes in the nature of preseving party harmony...

Now as the other PLAYERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If there were enough ghouls that I was seriously afraid some of us might be in danger of getting infected.. I MIGHT accept the shamans actions.

However if the shaman paniced / over-reacted / etc and I felt the only danger I was really in was lying unconcous on in the sewers for an hour... then it would be made very simple that me and the shaman are never on the same job again. I WOULD finish the job (took it you finish it until the Johnson screws you), BUT the shaman is INFRONT OF ME, and if I see his eyes turn towards me, its fair game...

As a player unless we were in serous damage (aka willing to pop smoke on yoor location in a good ole 'Nam game) I would be very upset with the shaman if I took an unexpected nap in the middle of the sewers


To me the OP's is a little vague. So I could still see it being each way...

If a desperate move and thought the party was deeply fragged (and the party agrees) then yeah a gamble that paid off...

But like any gamble you dont gamble something you cant afford to lose.... and he was gambling with their lives.



GM: I would just watch the players...

Players: First time, I would generally tell (IC) the shaman, that that had better be a very rare occurence and truly when in deep kimche. If it happened again and/or I felt it might happen again, as above that shaman aint walkin behind me, and I will be waiting to put rounds in his eyes if he looks at me.

Well I have to agree after the fact, stuffing you mage into a backpack might be a little much...

Simply don't associate with him if hes not quality work (and spread the word why).

Now if he looked like he was trying the crap again DURING the run... firmly reminding him to keep his eyes off you wouldn't be out of place.


Then again this all goes to the point of was it overkill...!!!!!!!!!!!

General posts seem to think it was.... and in most cases I could agree.


However if THIS was the scenario:

You are all heading down the sewer (dramatic roll of dice from GM). Suddenly the shadows and the water erupt as 8 ghouls lunge out on top of you.

Bob, Bill,Tammy you all are surprised.

Shaman-man you notice the water ripple and seem them as they are lunging out... roll initiative.

If they ghouls were ONTOP of the party (good chance people were going to get hit, if shaman didnt drop them all before they could act) and most of the party was out (or enough that the ghouls would get several attacks (and cahnce to infect)... Then I would be buying the shaman a new lodge, 10 pounds of orichalcum, and BigD's secrets of the meta-plans with personal notations / and travel notes!

All depends on hearing the FULL story.

Honestly, I'd say the validity of this tactic depends wholly upon the party, and the number/strength of ghouls attacking them.

If the rest of the team hadn't even gone yet, or there were comparatively few ghouls attacking a combat-savvy team, I'd say the sudden stunball might be a bit overkill. It's still not as bad as, for instance, a fireball or powerball or grenade or something -- but it could be seen as excessive, if there was no clear cut need for it.

However -- if the team had already acted and not many ghouls got dropped, if the team was towards the end of a job (low on ammo, maybe already injured, or otherwise unable to fight well), or if there'd been a hugely dangerous number of ghouls (that may or may not have been more offensively-capable than your average ghoul)...well, shit, man. Kudos to him. No one got bit, no one got infected, no one got killed. One gesture KO'ed every bad guy, and that's one rabid pack of man-eaters that ain't gonna fuck with you ever again. Sure, it probably sucked to wake up after your buddy knocked your ass out by flooding your aura with magical "fuck you" power, but when you looked around and saw a parking lot full of dead ghouls, and saw there wasn't a single tooth mark on ya...? Well, shit. Sin forgiven, y'know?

It worked. And that, and that alone, is the final judge as to whether any given tactic is stupid or not.

I'd make sure that such tactics don't become a habit of the shaman and then thank him for saving me from the possibility of being turned into a stinking, blind, maneating monstrosity.

Gods R Us

Isn't that where you shop for deities and demigods?

To me it would depend on the situation.

If I didn't think it was merited, I would talk to the shaman about his actions. If it kept happening, as the "last" run, I would either leave the team, or if the rest of the team agreed with me, tell the shaman to leave.

Reputations in the shadows is supposed to be important, so I would not frag over mine, I would be professional about it.

Now, if I was a forever and a day grudge carrying char, I might geek the shaman at a later point, when there is no reference to me.
But since I am not...

This isn't really much different from a sammie using stun grenades in close proximity to the party. With the exception that the mage was able to put a layer of armor around everyone thanks to counterspelling. Depending on circumstances it is somewhere between "If its stupid but it worked then it ain't stupid" and "A pyrrhic victory that put the real objective out of reach."

This is a stupid tactic to use on entry but if the party was on the way out with daylight ahead and these ghouls are the last straw then it merely becomes desperate.

I've done desperate multiple times on runs. My sam had a physad grappled while the mage pulled the pin on one of the physad's grenades. A party mage once desperately summoned a force15 spirit to deal with a dragon (yeah, having that go wild was bad but it distracted the dragon). One of my physads charged an AFV with a battleaxe b/c it was closer than cover (I managed to wedge my axe in the AFV's cannon barrel and barely go to the otherside before kablooey).

Desperate is never a good idea. But sometimes it is the right idea.

The team was in the Redman Barrens heading to a contact for some info.

They get jumped by ghouls walking down the street.

They were out numbered about 2 to 1. The Shaman is not geared toward combat. He relies on his elemental for damage.

The have one Street Sam who while dishing out damage was also recieving it.

Really it wasn't going well.

The Technomancer dropped from wounds and at that point the Shaman used th eonly offensive spell he knows. He dropped it on everyone and the battle was over.

As for the ghouls, they were originally hiding in an ally. They saw a car go buy and threw a molotov cocktail on it. The car bursts into flames and the driver gets out and tries to flee. The ghouls then leapt out of hiding, tackled him and started having lunch.

This is all about 1 street down fromt he corner the team is standing on. The ghouls see more meat and decide it's thier lucky day and charge at the team.

Honestly, I thought the ghouls would get wiped pretty quickly, but as it turned out the party wasn't doing to well in the combat BUT the Shaman saved the day, though I think it was a tad to powerful. So yea, Geek the Mage first.

In that case, I would have had no problem with what the shaman did. Would even buy him/her a few drinks.

A better solution perhaps would have been to come up with some sort of Hellsing-style target exclusion device to avoid hurting comrades. But with a reasonably non-military low-tech shaman, that's probably something they don't have. So that's not an option.

And if you can't use the better option you use the worse option. I don't know why that's even controversial. I don't know why player characters would get angry about it even. Sometimes the only weapon is a canister of tear gas. If the situation calls for it, you use it, and if it hurts you or your friends oh well.

Under the circumstances, the other players should just be glad that wasn't a can of Green Ring 8 or a Power Ball. Because if that was the only weapon then it still would have been deployed.

-Frank

#1. Getting knocked out is better than getting eaten.
#2. Getting knocked out is better than getting eaten.
#3. GETTING KNOCKED OUT IS BETTER THAN GETTING EATEN.

I'm pretty sure that's all that needs be said.