I'd like cyberware to be real so people with lost parts of their bodies could function well again, and I'd like organ transplants to be easy. Then again, people would need cyberware just to function in the workforce; market forces would make them get it even if they're completely against it. So what do you think, after you consider all the social ramifications?

What social ramifications? I can't imagine that many job fields that would be able to succesfully require hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of invasive surgery and implantation. People who got cyber might do so for an advantage, but I'm having a hard time imagining the days when Boosted Reflexes are required to practice law or do surgery. Minor cyber like datajacks and implant comms would be like the cel phones of today... not a requirement in most situations, but convenient.

And in the meantime, there's plenty of people out there who might really appreciate their osteoporosis being Laced away, their spinal injuries being Wired away, their lost arm from childhood being replaced...

I want to be able to vote twice. Someone else vote for the 'yes yes sign me up for the pilot' option.

I'm tired of this meat bod. It's little, it gets beaten up too easily, and sometimes it smells strange. I want a body that sweats WD-40 and can make julian fries.

I'd like a cyberarm, so I can crush the previously uncrushable.

And lung replacements, so I won't have to eventually quit smoking.

I want the details of why someone voted no. Besides, not everything is for conveinance. The most 'cyber' these days is all being made to help people with disabilities. Look at Johhny Spinrad. He's like 70% cyber, but all because of a plane crash, not because he did it for kicks. Imagine what we could do if we could just re-grow someone's failing liver or kidneys.

Where are the "yes, replacing parts of my body is akin to selling my soul" and "no, it allows people to function again" options?

~J

Just think, with a datajack a guy could make tons of very similair polls with just a thought....

I see no evidence that there's any thought involved.

...hmmm, no more pain or stiff joints from arthritis (Enhanced Articulation)

being able to read street signs from 4 blocks away...in the night... (Vision Enhancement w/Low Light)

not having to worry about bone degradation...(Bone Density)

yeah, I think it is worth it.

Sadly all the money in cyber and bio would be to make bigger and better boobs and fix broken penises. And the super bowl will have tons of commercials for it.

Besides all the cyber and bio will still be way out of reach of the average person once its availible. The med corps are going to make it exspensive, they have to make all that money back from R&D eventually some how. The people that are getting the prototype stuff now are only getting it because the med corps need test subjects to test ideas. Wait till something like a fully functional nearly natural cyber arm is created or a process for cloning a liver is perfected, itll be pretty damn exspensive.

I can also see insurance companies turning down the operations as they will call it elective surgery. I mean having a missing arm replaced? You can live with out it and if you didnt have that accidental dismembement insurance you can forget it.

Yeah I think all that stuff should be created, but I dont think everyone should have equal access to it either. If you take on dangerous bahavior I dont think you should be given the same options as the guy that didnt. Meaning if you have a genetic disease that destroys your liver then fine, let the med corps grow you a liver. But if you are an alcoholic and you destroy your liver I stand behind the insurance corps denying your liver transplant request.

If you're clinically depressed and attempt suicide, do you stand behind the insurance corps denying your emergency room charge?

~J

While this would be true in a holistic economy, we don't live in a communist state here. If the goverment is going to give you disability payments for life then why should the insurance companies bother paying for the new limb? It only costs them money.

Consider that current insurance companies cap the spending on artificial limbs to $10,000 in a lifetime; consider that the cheapest pegleg available commercially costs $30,000; and consider that a child with a missing limb will go through several prostesis because prostesis do not grow along with the body.

So the insurance companies will only pay for 1/3 of the most usless artificial limbs when reasonably an individual may need a dozen or more SOTA limbs, not including specialized limbs for work or athletics.

I think Squinky's point isn't that the insurance company pays it up, but rather the place of employment. If the paper cutter balanced pecariously on my cubicle wall falls and cuts off my left arm, the government will likely pay disability for the rest of my life or pay for some sort of rehabilitive surgery.

Of course, if the paper cutter I've balanced on top of my fridge at home falls and chops off my arm, I'm getting whatever care my health insurance company feels is appropriate (and I have no idea how they decide that) plus about $5,000 from my death & dismemberment policy which I can spend as I please. Possibly something from my life insurance as well, since they sometimes cover dismemberment, but I'm not sure how much. Probably not the $30k requires for a cyberarm, unfortunately.

Cut this damned Essence from me and give me Chrome.
Metal is better than Meat.


Dale - woud-be cyberpsycho

Thats my point really. Governments and companys (insurance or otherwise) pay it out the ass when someone gets a crippling injury. I really believe that the costs of running a cyber-replacement type clinic would save millions.

Well Darpa just started funding for finding a way to make that mouse that regrows body parts that are cut off to help humans somehow. I hope the process is available on the Black Market in a couple years.

You guys are neglecting the biggest market for cyber and bioware.
The military
The would start with the special forces and go from there, depending on how things went from there.

If the spec forces soldier lives longer, is harder to kill, etc..., it costs less, in the long run that to train up a new spec forces soldier (or so I have been told).

Once the military got into it big time, the price would come down.

No if the military gets into it the price will be what ever the government decides to pay, then if there becomes a civilian market for it the price will come down. But only to a level thats reasonable to the med and insurance companies. We are talking about medicine after all, you need it to live, TVs cost less because you can live with out one. Look at medications and surgeries, they are still highly exspensive. And I think you are highly over estimating the usefullness of cyberware in the military. As of July 31st 2006 the US has just under 1.4 million service men. That is nothing compared to the almost 296 million US citizens. Now what percentage do you think will be entitled to cyber ware that would make the price come down? Roughly 721,000 of those people are in the Navy and Air Force which I highly doubt would need wired reflexes, a few would get VCRs but even that number would be low with all the Riggers taking Pilot spots. One Rigger could do the job of a wing of pilots. The Army is a grab bag, they have a lot of rear area personel, like artillery and support units, but they do have tanks and helicopters so maybe theyll get VCRs, so that leaves marines so of the 179,000 marines how many do you think will get combat cyberware? Well If I could afford it, all of them.

Now lets get to practicality. Even if you say 50% of that number are combat personel or are in need of cyberware to make their jobs more effcient or even better you are still only looking at 700,000 people. Not a very large market. Then we get to enlisted men, a lot of people today join the service to get the GI bill benefits. Now Im not saying they arent good citizens and such, but they are looking to serve their tour, hopeing they dont get deployed and coming out on top with training and a degree to jump into the private sector to get a better job. They are not the people you want to put 500,000 worth of harware into, if not more depending on price.

And even more to the point. There are people doing god damn bake sales to raise money t pay for body armor and kevlar inserts for their Hummvees because the government cant afford it to put every soldier or marine in body armor and armored vehicles. So, where would you like the country that spends more on defense then the bulk of the countries in the world and more then like the next top three countries combined to get the money to equip even 100,000 hard core soldiers with the latest in cyberware?

Yeah the latest cutting edge tech in less then 100,00 people is really going to drive the market price down on very limited use ware.

Cheap poor quality cybernetics would be the parts that get cheap enough to make it to market for the average citizen, but then youll still have these people in the hospital constently having repairs and upkeep done to them. Youll get things like cheap limbs, and maybe some brain implants for parkensons and such, maybe some filters for kidney disease and things like that. But the price and availiblity of things like wired reflexes, VCRs, smartlinks, they are all going to stay exspensive and I highly doubt an insurance company is going to foot the bill for any of that. Even Datajacks, you dont need it to do your job and by 3rd edition you have trode nets which make you just as fast as a datajack user in tortoise mode. Any person higher up the food chain will have the money to have it installed on their own dime.

Where the real promising advances will be is in bio tech. With certain types in power the advances needed to be made are being hindered, well in this country anyway. So it seems a lot of amputees will be needing to go to Europe or Canada to get the needed surgeries. Which insurance companies wont pay for.

If you want you could add int eh roughly 664,000 Police officers to that list as well. Bu tthey have all the same problems the military faces, lack of funds, lack of security for the investment made on the officer, and really, if the cybrware isnt on the streets for criminals to have, why would th epolice need it?

Actually the sports industry could easily afford a Cyber League or whatever.
I'd gladly watch a team of cyborgs beat the crap outta each other.

i voted yes, not for myself but for the poor suckers who have lost limbs, or had practically irreperable brain damage

Some people seem to have a very odd view of how things work in the world...

Yes, the government does pay disability for certain people who cannot work. This is a GOOD THING because ultimately it is a drop in the bucket for the government, but it means someone like me who has a family and a boring job, but hasn't been working long enough to own a house or put millions into savings, can be reasonably sure that, should something terrible happen to me such that my family doesn't get life insurance but I can't work, I won't starve to death in the streets. I know Frag-o is invincible and therefore doesn't have to worry about such things, but most of the rest of us are not. Having a safety net is a good thing.

Related to that, if the government can pay an up front cost of $15k (or less because it's government issue through medicare and subpar quality) rather than pay $1k a month until I die, I think it would be in the government's best interest to do so.

Related to this, I imagine the government would be willing to pay for most if not all military personnel (as in, all the people they already pay thousands to arm and put through boot camp, which includes officers and paper pushers in all fields) to get a smartlink (the safety aspects alone would save money) and possibly cybereyes. The grunts could expect more. How much more I can't guess. Flyboys could expect things like wired reflexes. After all, the jet they're flying is already a few billion dollars, what's another $500M on top of that? All wounded vets would be practically guaranteed cyber replacements for any limbs lost in combat.

Insurance companies are in a bit of a mess. On the one hand, it costs $30k to replace a limb. On the other, it'll cost almost that much in physical therapy to deal with not having that limb. A wheelchair alone costs over $1,000. Physical therapists do get very expensive very quickly, plus I can't imagine all the other medical equipment that would be required to adapt to life missing a limb. At worst, the insurance would pay out a certain amount towards the limb rather than towards whatever else they'd give, and you would get a pricing plan on your new leg. People buy cars for $20 or $30k, I don't see limbs being that unreasonable. Of course, how much the insurance puts out really depends on the quality of the insurance company. Some insurance companies may pay enough to tar the stump, but some (as in, the more expensive ones), will actually try to put you how you were before, and that means cyber. Between medical insurance, d&d insurance and government help, plus loans and payment plans from the hospital, I can see cyber limbs being very reasonable for middle class or above.

The whole insurance wars idea is... interesting. However ultimately the damage against the victim company compared to the possible cost if you're caught whacking people (and the fact that ultimately it'll drive people not to have any insurance at all, since apparently buying life insurance increases your chance that you'll cash in on that policy) seems a little whacky. I understand you can do it for fictional purposes, because it's fun, but I can't really imagine it happening in real life, even in the worst hell holes, unless the insurance policy really doesn't pay out anything if something bad happens to you and is literally payment to avoid getting beaten up by thugs. After all, ultimately getting paid NOT to do something is a much more profitable business plan than getting paid TO do something.

As a member of a culture that respects and venerates their soldiers and returned veterans, I do find your comments on the US Government's treatment of their soldiers more than a little worrying.

Getting rid of manned aircraft and switching to drones is a natural evolution. The drones can manoeuver better, travel faster, and carry a heavier payload if you don't need to include life-support and a cockpit. The phasing out of combat pilots and their replacement with drone riggers is not a negative step, it actually increases the pool of candidates, us tall people can be 'combat pilots' now too, not just the midgets they can fit into the cockpits.

The military might not be willing to spend tens of thousands upgrading their baseline personnel, however, if you came to the recruiter with pre-existing cyberware wouldn't you get preferential selection? Surely there are only limited numbers of candidates for special forces? OCS? Electronic warfare? Pilot (sorry, Drone rigger)?
Having a datajack, mnemonic enhancer, encephalon, math SPU, internal GPS, orientation system, or any of the ear or eye mods (any of which have valid civilian uses) would be valuable to the military.

What about veteran personnel? Say you have a master sergeant with 10 years experience, and he loses a leg in a freak accident. Do you discard him with a payout and a pension? Or do you fit him with a cyberleg and keep him on for another 10 years? Does the fact change if he was on holiday fishing at the time? How easy, and costly, is it to replace experienced personnel, as opposed to rebuilding them?

Our society loves our vets as well. But the government in their infinet wisdom is always looking to screw them in some way. And everytime they try to widdle away what little benefits the vets do have there is an outrage, too bad the attention span of the amercian citizen is short, especially if the gas price increases.

Of course the militry will give you preferential treatment if you come in with higher skills and cyberware, I would assume. But then again the military has done weird things on their own. I mean denying gays from fighting in the military and blacks.

There are a lot of things to consider in that sergeant scenerio. Mainly how many master sergeants do you have, what are the availible benefits you are offering at the time, did he pay into those benefits, is it war time and whats the current stance on cyberware in the military? There was a navy diver that lost a leg and he was discharged. He fought the military on letting him get a prostethic and stay on the navy. I mean hes a diver that did wreckage dives. Not combat, and in the water you are effectively neutrally boyant, so why does the fake leg matter? Well the Navy had a rule that the diver must be able to carry his full load under his own power because their job requirments. And he lost his leg on the job.

Also just because benefits are availible it doesnt mean the person is paying into it. My company offers health insurance, but if I opt out and get hurt or sick I have to pay the bill. Unless its on the job, then the companies insurance has to pay for it, but then its the least amount of care they can possibily get away with.

I think it's going to be an interesting time when the line between prosthetic limb and cyber limb breaks down. Would the military still kick that diver out if he voluntarily had the surgery to have a cyberlimb installed?

Definitions are going to have to be reviewed. A soldier losing his sight and being discharged is a different issue to a soldier losing his sight and getting fully functioning cybereyes.

Fully functioning cyber-bits are going to change the entire landscape. I figure most first world militaries are going to take advantage of them.

I see them taking advantage of it also, just in very limiting quantities. THe US military is having a hard enough time holding on to enlisted men and wmoen as it is now. It jsut wouldnt be economically sound to install all that Cyberware into troops you may not have in 4 years.

Also a lot of jobs in the military are being preformed by contractors now, we have a lot of mercenaries fighting for us also. Its a little dark secret, but look for a book called Corporate Warriors, its amazing how much stuff is being contracted out. These Mercenaries may get cyberware if they can afford it, enlisted special forces may get it as part of a long time military contract. But I highly doubt the average enlisted grunt is going to get anythign installed in him.

Im curious, when will these newly enlisted grunts get the cyber installed? You are talking a 13 week boot camp then a roughly 13 to 26 week MOS training school. Are going to give them the cyber right after these schools? Then they are out of action for several weeks recouping from the surgery?

Depends on the ware I guess. Medical procedures, even rather invasive ones, don't take nearly as long to recover from as they used to. (I've been told that my wife will most likely be able to come home a day or two after a C-section). Sure the actual healing time is prolonged, but light duties are there for a reason. Besides, the majority of ware with a cost/utility threshold within reason for the military aren't that invasive. In terms of size of injury that is. Datajack and smartlink being the most likely.

The military is not going to install valuable hardware (that you will take with you when you leave) when they can issue you a toy that will do the same job. What they might do is offer a discount on desirable cyberware in return for an extended tour of duty.

Optional extras that might bemade available are boosted reflexes (a chemical treatment), nictitating membranes (bio flare comp), symbiotes (injection, faster healing), dermal plating (external protection). All these can be added in a short period of time and take little time to recover from.

The required surgeries (smartgun, yadda) would likely be installed at a point when more intellectual instruction is about to begin, with physical training slackened to give healing time. Or offered at the beginning of a layover, instead of a few days off you get a toy installed that will increase your chance of promotion.

The Human Rights Commission would never allow the mandatory implantation of either cyber or bioware into soldiers. Equal Opportunity dictates that the non-enhanced cannot be discriminated against.
In real life we know that someone could enjoy a successful military career without getting augmented, but it is more likely that some one 'better' than them would be promoted ahead much quicker with a higher liklihood of survival.

EEO refers to race, sex, creed, religion, color, or national origin. It has nothing to do with size, sexual preference or the like.

And note that "willingness to undergo elective surgery" isn't in that list.

Well, the military does prohibit women from holding certain positions.

10k to assure me that when Im 45 Ill still be able to move all my fingers properly and have knees that function?

Sign me up.

The price-performance of bioware and cyberware goes up over time. The best way to ensure that the bioware you partake of is the best quality it can be, is to remove barriers to its development and innovation.

This means that if you think that you'll need/want some sort of artificial augmentation someday, you're best off by promoting the development now. People rightly complain that medicine has not gotten cheaper, and this is very true. But what you get for your money has certainly improved and the price of various treatments has gone down quite a bit, especially once they are integrated into an economy.

The 'best' heart-pressure medication continues to be very expensive. But the stuff that isn't very expensive has gotten quite a bit better.

For those who want artificial augmentation to proceed, it is logical to take proactive steps to promote its development.