Well, the WWW is a bunch of hypertext and a protocol attached to it. That's one difference. As for the real difference, if no one explains it before I get back from this afternoon's exam I'll try to clear that up for you.

Edit: a short explanation for one possible source of confusion, though: it's not like there was one central modem bank that everyone dialed into to reach anything they needed. No, each individual organization and/or individual providing services had a modem or modem bank that you dialed into to access the resources that they provided. To access someone else's resources, you dialed into that someone else's modem bank. Unless you had two modems and phone lines, that meant hanging up from the first modem bank.

~J

Lemme get this straight...so, hackers are the guys who are really good at computers and contribute towards the development of the field as a whole, and crackers are the guys who break into databases and make viruses and stuff?

Ignorance. When does the media get anything correct? Well in a very few cases.

Also for anybody that really is worried about being traced and or want to look for computer. You should look as MAC addresses, they are permanent on most devices, and they are programmed by the factory. Logging an IP only gives you the Network its associated with.

Lets say the kid in college decides to hack something, unless they are using static IP addresses that are specifically assigned to the client the IP can and does change periodically. Like when you log off and back on to the network. Thats part the DHCP Server, next to the DNS ans NAT servers (mind you they can all be the same machine).

How the cops prove it was your computer is getting the log file of the voilated computer. Find out who owns the public IP address (which by now they are all owned, which is why they are going to the 16 bit IP addresses, sort of liek when the phone companies made people start dialing area codes for local calls also. but it uses Hexadecimal). Then they get the logs of the IP addresses and then find out who was assigned that IP address at the time. When they raid your house theyll take everything. Theyll then check the MAC address of the router/hubs/switches (the smart stuff that has a MAC) and your computers because all NICs and WiFi cards have mac addresses so to access poiints and signal repeaters. Once they find the computer that has the logged MAC addresses they now know its you that they want.

One way people are now hiding their tracks is to find a unsecured wireless network and then hack from their. Your home wireless network can be used if its not secured and you wont know its happening unless you have the log. The police may get the MAC of the actual hackers computer, but since there is no record of who owns what MAC they cant do anything about it. Also most people that dont secure their wireless networks also dont change the defaults of their routers, which is generally username: admin and no password, if they do its generally admin. Once you have control of the router you can your self destroy the logs the router has created for the offending computer.

Since most people are now using routers the police will have to use the MAC of the router. Escpecially since ISPs dont liek people using the one line to allow many people in line, the routers act as residental gateways. They have a DHCP server built in and a NAT server. The DHCP hands out private IPs behind the router to allow all your computers get on the network. The NAT then truns you generic 192.168.x.x IP intot he IP address givent to you as a static IP or by your ISPs DHCP server. For all intents and purposes the ISPs DUCP server only seens one computer, which is actually your router.

As for the security people finding out you have a port sniffer is fairly easy. A port sniffer basically pings every IP address and port you tell it to. ANd well, Since there are somethig like 65553 IP addresses and 65555 ports per internet device thats a lot of your computer yelling "Hey, can I come in?" Not many people like that, especially on a porrly planned network where you can broadcast across the entire network and cause major lag.

Port scanning is a great idea for a security person in IT, it lets them see if some one left a firewall vulnerable adn such, but like any diagnostic tool, it can be used to find holes.

Some people have also been known to use CD OSs. I know of one that is filled with ass loads of "Diagnostic" tools and other less then level programs all ran on a Linux OS that is writtent to a CD. You pop the CD into any computer then run the software, it runs a Linux shell on any computer, mac or windows that will then let you run any of these diagnostic progs. It will map entire networks, count hops, port sniff everything.

I hate computers though, so I dont pay much attention to all this stuff.

Frag-o gave a very good low down of some common dirty tricks. As a home user, the only one you really have to worry about is getting a personal firewall, securing your wireless router, and regular patching. All of that takes about twenty minutes to set up and is free (for a firewall, I recommend zone alarm). Of course, a dedicated hacker may still be able to find a vulnerability, but generally it's just not worth the trouble.

Another common trick is finding online anonymizers. These are popular not just for hackers, but for anyone interested in preserving their privacy. Basically your computer connects to another computer. You send your internet requests to that computer, which sends them out, then encrypts and sends the results back to you. So suppose you're sending death threats to the president (not that this is a particularly good idea). You send the encrypted death threat to the anonymizer. It decrypts it and sends it to the white house. When the Secret Service trace it, they find an anonymizer with, in theory, no record of who used it. Anyone tracing the anonymizers traffic will find half of the traffic is the unencrypted net traffic and half of it is encrypted traffic to an assortment of users, so as long as there are enough users, there's no way to connect one user to a session. This makes more sense if you use an anonymizer overseas, where it's a pain to get a warrant, or multiple anonymizers. It's also good behavior not just for illegal use, but for general web surfing, as the current administration seems to be losing respect for the privacy of computer users.

There is also onion routing to consider. Onion networks such as Tor pass your data through dozens of different computers before sending out to the internet and vice versa. Combined with an anonymizing proxy, it is very difficult to actually trace anything.

in general, i use the term 'hacker' myself, when i mean 'cracker'. this is because, in general, the difference isn't important, and trying to clarify it would, indeed, be tilting at windmills--i would be displaying an inability to differentiate between when it's appropriate to use the correct term, and when it isn't. in this particular discussion, however, the difference between hackers and crackers is not just important, it's the basis of the entire discussion. the Don Quixotes in this thread are the guys trying to argue that 'hacker' and 'cracker' mean the same thing, because the question the thread is trying to answer relates directly to the definitions of those words.

I never said I was a Hacker guys. In fact I havent done anything like that in years when Online was BBSs, when modem banks where mentioned I almost cried a tear for nostalegia the internet was still something only professors used and kids that had rich parents.

Not to mention Im not giving out all the secrets I do know, I still occasionally talk to my old hack buddies about current updates and things. But only to see how far technology has gone. Like port snifing. I know pinging is the worst way to go about lookign for open ports, like I said its yelling out 65000 times can i come in, you dont break into a house kicking on every door in the neighborhood looking for that one door thats unlocked.

I mean you can also look up common open ports by hardware maker. I know one company that leaves 443 open on one model but on their "more secure" model its locked tight, too bad its sometimes needed open so you have to set up stuff for that. Some services that you install forces ports open that a lot of people dont know about, we all know port 80 is for the internet, but AOL has been known to force port 10080 to open amongst others, and thats not the only software to do it. I mean alog witht he tricks mentioned I have seen port sniffers that just lay in wait and wait for traffic to come out of the port then lets you know its being used, then it tries to reply to the message it seen being sent out. I think they are called packet sniffers or something, they grab bits of data for you to read later, looking for things like passwords, encyrption keys and all that.

I can sit here and outline step by step how to hack a system but that person will get caught then Im an accessory. I could even tell you how to get into ATM machines very easily and get away with thousands of dollars easily. But I wont.

And believe it or not I have still been given clearence to work in the Pentagon and work in High Finance businesses where hundreds of thousands of dollars lay around like its normal. I wont say I know all there is to know about hacking, but I also leave out a lot on purpose, because I also kind of find it funny thinking someone here may try the things we suggest and go to jail for being stupid.

Also while I admit to commiting crimes and will not shirk away from my past, I dont like telling people how to do the things I have done because really this world is full of people that dont take the blame for their own actions.

Your mom.

You're right...the script-kiddie aspect IS terrifying. I think once you get a sufficient skill level you should be able to handle yourself to some degree, setting up your own spoofing and packet-slinging.

As a software engineer I have a pretty good idea what real hacking is about. I'll definitely be writing my hacking rules more realistically once SR is ported over to the system I'm working on.

You can still do it. You need a deck now, of course, but if you don't mind 6+ TNs on absolutely everything and a DF probably not higher than 6, you can go right ahead and not use any programs.

~J

Cuckoo's Egg is good book. I'd forgotten that one. I highly recommend it.

Sadly, that has historicaly been my single biggest gripe about SR (and not just 3 or 4, but 1 & 2 as well).


Its kinda funny now, the 'golden age' of hacking is pretty much over. It used to be so much more... fun? I guess Im just getting old, but I dont enjoy getting into someones PC, or my university file server, anywhere near as much I used to love 'remote admining' my old HS's NT4 system, or my first roomates laptop.
Sure, the holes get plugged way faster then they used to, and people in general are better about security, but the courisity hackers just arnt out there much anymore. Free data isnt hacking anymore, its piracey.

It's the corruption of capitalism. Once upon a time a virus would do something either humorous (3Tunes, for example) or destructive (wiping data, etc. etc. etc.). Nowadays, it's all about finding ways to make money with the virus.

~J

like wrapping the whole "my documents" folder (basicly dont use it for important data, and keep a backup at all times) in heavy encryption and requesting cash for the key...

digital backmailing, didnt see that one coming...

greed to a lot of things to people...

I was thinking more in terms of turning machines into spam-zombies or foisting pop-ups onto the machine user directly, but that works too.

~J