In a moment of clarity, I noticed that the megacorp philosophy appears to be founded not just on needless bureaucracy (Dis), but also betrayal for self-interest (Vestrial) and a general philosophy of greed at any cost to others (Raggok).

Since those three passions have been in a state of slow absorption into Ristul since early scourge 4th age, a non-trivial portion of each has already been consumed and is now churning together in the massive soul-blender that is Ristul.

This just brings up disturbing questions about Saeder-Krupp and every other corp that is owned by something that really should recognize what is being fed by their business model.

I'd point out that like most other magic in ED and SR, magic seems driven by belief. I'd think there would have to be someone who believed in the passions in those forms in order for them to exist like that. Evidence Harlequin's interaction with what appears to be Vestrial in Harlequin's back. Also, Chorallis is the passion of greed, not Raggok. Raggok is vengence and pain.

That being said, in my games, I've always had very quite cults of Dis and Vestrial working behind the scenes to bring back their passions, especially through the megacorps. Lowfyr tends to micro manage though, so I think he'd sniff them out pretty quick in his own ranks at least. The other corps however ... fair game.

In general, I imagine that the Passions have been straved for karma during the downcycle and have been usurped by the Totems and the Idols, which retain a great deal of metahuman worship and with is metahuman karma. However karma starvation is not enough to kill a free spirit on the order of the Passions, they are too weak to play an active role in things but they are still around somewhere. Some shadowtalk in the Tir books suggests that some Immortal Elves and their protegè's.

I imagine that among the Earthdawn era deities the only one that still retains significant power is Death, for obvious reasons. While the mana level may be too low yet for her to be kicking ass and taking names, it is just as likely that she is keeping a low profile while performing her cosmic duties and plotting against those with the power and inclination to imprison her again.

As for Saeder Krupp, dragons don't worship the Passions and I imagine that they don't fear them, either. Certianly, Great Dragons don't. They understand what the Passions really are better than anyone else and they've lived long enough to see Gods rise and fall and even die. I imagine that somewhere there is a GD who has personally destroyed a metahuman deity.

Well the old Tir Tairngire mentioned that some of the elves were worshiping strange spirits and the phrase Passions was used IIRC, followed by Harlequin commenting that he'd send flowers to the posters funeral. Combine that with Shdows of North Amarica's information that Paladins didn't just have to be warriors but could devote themselves to an ideal or belief and I wouldn't think you should have too much trouble shoe horning them in if that's your thing.

I figure since we've had mentions of them appearing in the books like Harlequin's Back that the IE's and dragons had enough belief/knowledge to keep them active as it were. May not be worship but just knowing they exist could be enough. Figure they're so low powered that they can't manifest physically and even then only appear to someone that already knows about them. At least that's my take in them.

IE's could certainly follow them, but even in ED the great dragons were , well, a little amused by people following the Passions. They viewed them more as powerful spirits than anything divine. Kind of ironic considering things like the Church of the Dragon.

There certainly are ways and reasons to say that there could be a ressurgence of passions. There's a few Passion "cults" in our games, although not nearly as strong in ED. The believers bring in other people, and they make a sort of a spirit pact for "questor powers", basically just like the spirit pacts in 4th ed Street Magic, granting a spirit power.

On the Tir note, Ive always wondered where the Telestrians get their information. What immortal is backing them. Two examples:

House of the Sun: Dirk mentions Quinn Harlech to an Telestrian exec, and she knows who he's talking about, although he doesn't.

Rigger3: there's a ship in there that's named after the lost ship in the BloodWood book. Can't recall the name off the top of my head, perhaps someone has a book handy for refernce. Just something that's been bothering me that I just remembered.

Just a random thought, Ristul was to all intents a name given to the corruption of astral space caused by the horrors, at least that's how I read it, would it have been able to survive the down cycle?

Any more solid interpratations on Ristul's nature?

Background count exists. Ristul exists. Quod erat demonstrandum.

~J

Maybe you can explain your theory/ proof with some more words?

I'll do this by proof by contradiction, then:

Proposition: Ristul is dead.

Premise 1: the game information section of the Horrors sourcebook is correct
Premise 2: Magic in the Shadows is correct
Premise 3: SR3 is correct

Background count exists (premise 2).

Tainted or Corrupt areas of astral space are a manifestation of Ristul (premise 1).

Dead astral forms immediately vanish (premise 3)—there are no astral corpses.

If Ristul were deceased, there would be no Tainted or Corrupt areas of astral space.

But, background count exists.

Therefore, Ristul must exist.

~J

Pay no attention to the logic behind the curtain.

That's only correct if you assume that all astral corruption/pollution is Ristul. You could go along similar lines that Artificer is/was a metal elemental that was corrupted, therefore all metal elementals are corrputed. You would first have to prove that all astral pollution and corruption is Ristul, which it can't be, since astral pollution can be different. Evidence aspected background count.

Huh!? It's a little old fallacy behind the curtain!

There's a fallacy there, but it isn't the one you cite—I give you the text of Horrors:

Sorry, it's been a while since I took my classes in critical thinking so I can't name the particular fallacy.


Ristul can use it's powers in areas where it has manifested

Ristual can manifest in areas classified as tainted or corrupt

The tricky part is the wording, where it says "has manifested", where it should likely say areas where it has manifested are tainted or corrupt.

Areas where it has manifested is a strict superset of regions classified as either Tainted or Corrupt. The sentence is quite clear about that—the Tainted or Corrupt areas are the areas where it has manifested. Not where it can manifest, where it has manifested.

It wasn't a name you got wrong, IMO the only fallacy in my argument is that I assumed that background count and astral corruption were identical without either giving it as a premise or proving it from my premises. There are strong arguments for it, but it isn't something that, as far as I can tell, can be proven in this sort of sense.

~J

yes, but that's not the same as saying that all tainted or corrupted areas are areas where it has manifested.


Background count of a high lebel (5+) could be reasoned to be the same as corruption, where a lower level could be the same for tainted.

Actually, it is the same as saying that all tainted or corrupted areas are areas where it has manifested

It should be noted that in Earthdawn, Ristul appeared as an inky substance, while Magic in the Shadows describes background count as a shimmering or a fog. Whether this indicates a different nature (unlikely, IMO), a lesser degree of corruption, or simply the weak manifestation of Ristul at this point in the manacycle is, at this point, for the reader to decide.

~J

As it's written I'd say that you're right. I don't think that's quite how they meant it, and should have been a bit more careful with their wording, but there's really no way to 'prove' that.

I tend to think of the difference in Ristul's particular form of taint in he astral , and normal background count, similar to the difference of say water polluted with just general waste, as opposed to water with say oil (not the bast analogy since oil and water don't mix, but I think you get where I'm going with it).

When I get home and can look at my copy of Scourge Unending, that ought to give a pretty good idea—if that implies that all astral corruption is Ristul, well, them messing it up twice is less likely

(Of course, "when I get home" is mid-November, so if any kind soul with a copy wants to look it up for us… )

~J

I've got it, but it's also at home. I won't be back here (work) with it until Monday.

1. If background count is the manifestation of Ristul, then all background count must be tied to Ristul.

2. Background count is created by large amounts of emotion -- positive and negative.

3. By 2, a group of elven virgins who have never suffered an impure thought gathered in a circle singing praises of life, produces a background count. (Aspected towards life)

4. It is unreasonable to believe that a group of elven virgins who have never suffered an impure thought gathered in a circle singing praises of life can manifest Ristul.

5. Because we have a background count which is unrelated to the manifestation of Ristul, background count is not the manifestation of Ristul.

**

This is not to say that all background counts are not the manifestation of Ristul. This is simply to state that manifestations of Ristul may be a proper subset of background counts.

The difference, I expect, is that Earthdawn had a far more strict definition of tainted or corrupted -- specifically, manifestation of Ristul. But, that does not mean that the definition hasn't been.. widened.. in the 6th world, due to differences in magic.

Kage dosen't MITS say that there may aspected background counts? Dosen't that leave it to the players or GM at least to decide what, if any, effect the nonmagical activities of several elf virgins could have on health spells?

Also, If background count is Ristul, dosen't that mean that the Manawarp due to the Edge of the Giasphere in space is REALLY Ristul?

Ah, but space is a Mana Ebb (YEMV) as mentioned in Street Magic.

I would be tempted to say that Ristul is a specific sort of background count, maybe something like toxic aspected maybe. Mostly I wish it was clearer what Ristul is, is it a thinking being or is it a name given to a particular astral phenomenon? the Horrors book left it kinda in the air for me.

Ristul is more than just background count. It is action eternally corrupting. It takes seat in individuals and consumes them from the inside out but despite being so consumed they remain intact and unharmed, forever a part of Ristul. Toxic Shamen may be examples of Ristular, individuals who are a part Ristul though still seperate, who have had their souls torn apart and remade by the Horror and who revel in his corruption while being tortured by it in unimaginable ways.

In essence, Ristul is everything and every one that is corrupted. It has access to all of their minds and memories; it is, at the very least, the sum of all of these individuals. But it is so much more than the some of its parts. It is both a force of nature and a sentient being at the same time.

Alright -- instead of a specific example, just look at the rare aspected background count. Or, any background count, for that matter.

Ristul may, in fact, represent some, or most, background counts. To say Ristul represents all background counts is far too general -- because a lot of background counts have nothing to do with corruption. They're aspected astral space. They can make it easier to do some things.

Is a river "corrupted" because you can't go in one direction as easy as you can go in another? Same idea.

Your questions are simplistic. The primary thing to keep in mind with the Horrors is that, although they're all "Horrors", Horrors have very little in common with each other. Goals, strengths, weaknesses, abilities, required mana level, etc. etc. etc. For example, if I remember correctly Ysrthgrathe was mostly on Earth throughout the (low-mana) Fifth World, and Ysrthgrathe is definitely a powerful Named Horror.

If Ristul is all Tainted or Corrupt regions (as the quote above definitely states, though possibly erroneously—the text as written is unambiguous, no matter how much you dismiss it), then Ristul is here. If not, then Ristul might be here. If there were to be one Horror to not need to wait for the Bridge, that Horror would be Ristul.

~J

I don't think Ysgrathe was in the 5th world. I think he just got back sooner. Been some time since I read that book as well though.

Ysthgrathe was cool. A horror willing to sacrifice him self in order to bring more of his kind closer. Such a sweetie.

It wasn't about bringing more of his kind over. It was about hurting his ex-lover no matter what the cost. He was basically an abusive spouse taken to the extreme. Sacrificing himself to bring more of his kind over was just the best way to hurt Aina as much as was possible.

No, he wasn't around during the Fifth World that I know of. His half-metahuman son was; Thias taught the Great Ghost Dance to the original dancers who were slaughtered at Wounded Knee when the Dance failed due to the low mana level. However, Thias had the advantage of being both metahuman and horror at the same time, his unique existance made him all but immune to the waning of magic.


One thing to remember about Ristil is that its corruption cuts across all metaplans and the corruption we see is not the totality of Ristul. Background count is little more that tiny fingers or wisps of hair compared to the complete body of Ristul which cannot manifest at this low mana level. It tried to manifest its whole body during the Fourth World. Where it began to come into being it tore a hole in Astral space. It was stopped, supposedly due to the sacrifice of the Mad Passions. But somewhere, in the deepest darkest metaplanes, this mass of Ristul still exists. Writhing tangible corruption so great that the shreds apart any astral space that it touches. So, it can be said that parts of Ristul have existed throughout the downcycle but these parts are just tertiary and inconsequential to the whole. The primary mass of Ristul won't be able to manifest for a very long time, hopefully not ever.

hyzmarca brings up another important point: the fallacy of "teams". While it's probably true that the goals of any given Horror are unpleasant, and that in many cases the magnitude of unpleasantness is such that they are for practical purposes equally unpleasant (not all cases—Chantrel's Horror appears to be fulfilling its goals, which, while horrific, are generally only horrific for a small number of people at a time. Likewise, I have yet to see any indication that, say, Artificer wants to torture the entire world horribly—it appears to be content to just feed on a steady trickle of unfortunates. Tempter may cause the ruin of nations, but it isn't that ruin that it's after. So on and soforth. Only a few Horrors, like Ristul and Verjigorm (and even Verjigorm is debatable), have goals that spell instant doom), the goals are nevertheless different, and there's no tendency to cooperate towards them. There is no "Team Horror", and there likely never will be.

Likewise, I seriously question any assumption that there will be a Team Human. There are many reasons to follow certain Horrors, and many reasons to follow humans following certain Horrors, and even more importantly there are many reasons not to work with that guy over there who wants your land or whose land you want.

~J

<Posting error>

Reading Ysgranthe words in the various places that he appears (Horrors; Worlds Without End), it seems to me that he was suicidally depressed.

You see, Ysgranthe forged close and deep and sickingly loving relationships with his victims. As he did so he became more and more like the metahumans he fed upon and began to experience the closest he could possibly come to metahuman emotions. He truely loved some of his victims and Aina he loved most of all. He needed her not to feed off of her pain but to bask in her love and when she rejected him it left him despondant. No mater how hard he tries he will never love anyone as he loved her and he knows it. His longing knows no bounds and it will never fade. If he simply killed her that emptiness would torment himforever and he could no longer feed off of her suffering; she wouldn't let him. His only option, the only way he could free himself from this longing, was to have her destroy him and in doing so he would hurt her as badly as she could be hurt just for the hell of it.

You brought up some interesting thoughts/ theories, but the one about the sacrifice of the Mad Passions puzzles me.

I believe it was the Throal book where it talks about the passions, mentioned that the theory/legend was that the mad passions sacrificed themselves to stop it. No page reference though, sorry.

Throal book is fine, I'll have a look at it tomorrow. I like the idea, maybe I can present it in my ED campaign.

The Abyss of Aras Nehem. It is mentioned in the Ristul entry of Horrors. It was a giant hole in Astral Space through which Ristul tried to manifest (supposedly) and through which many Horrors did come. It was created when the Mad Passions ordered their Questors in Otosk to abandon the Kaer's protections. Some believe that it was a betrayl, others believe that it was a sacrifice and that the Man Passions themselves held Ristul at bay by force feeding themsleves and their questors to it.

Thanks, just read the entry. Really interesting (and one of the few times that an in-game text mentiones "hell"). So would cleaning the astral space of the kaer and it's surrounding cure the Mad Passions?
That would be a truly epic task, no question ask.

Had a player in a game die that way. Legendary deed sacrifice and all that, in order to weaken it, and repress it with an empowered (ie sacrifice again, different character) Restrain Horror, named.

Against Ristul?

Sorry, your post is a little confusing to me (still posting from work?).

You would have to close the rift first and then clense the space. Since that particular spot is just a giant hole connecting to the Horror's metaplanes where the astral space used to be cleansing without sealing it would be futile.
But I don't that that is enough to cure the Mad Passions. Ristul is still inside of them, consuming them from the inside out. Its corruption is a part of them and they are a part of it. Curing them would require something far more drastic. It would probably require Renaming them in such a way that the parts of them that have been corrupted by Ristul are excised. Good luck with that. Asside from the difficulty of performing such a Ritual on a being as powerful and amorphous as a Passion, you'd also probably end up with the corrupted parts of them splitting off and becoming even worse monsters than they were.

sorry, posting from work as well. Never said it did anything for the passions. That was something they never really thought about. Just captured the part of Ristul that was there. it was part of a campaign to limit Ristul for a while, and make it work more directly through his cultists and questors of the mad passion. kind of a "protect the evil artifact while trying to find a way to neutralize it" thing.

Oh, that's a good story arc. (I'm not posting from work, I was referring to you )

@hyzmarca: Spllitting off the corrupted parts may create new monsters, but at least the Mad Passions would be healed. As I said, a true epic campaign.

ah, sorry ,yes. See how confusing it is!?

Like hell.

At least you have internet access at work. Our bosses don't trust us worthless underlings and thus don't give us an internet accout.

I wouldn't say "trust" is the right word. Try "sneaky".

We don't even have the possibility to be "sneaky".