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MadDogMaddux
Is this correct?

Attacker rolls to hit as a standard opposed roll, including the reach bonus if applicable.

If he hits, net hits are not added to stun damage, target just takes 6 stun damage reduced by a Willpower roll.

Target then must make a Bod plus Willpower (3) test to stay up and concious.


I assume the -2 from 6 stun also applies to that roll?
Fortune
As far as I know, net hits are added to the base 6S damage from the baton.
MadDogMaddux
With or without adding the net-hits, that makes the Stun Baton a REALLY powerful weapon against low level NPCs.

If they fail their test, how long are they knocked out for?
Fortune
The additional (non-damage) stunning effect does not actually 'knock the target unconscious', IIRC. It merely makes them pause, effectively freezing them in place and making them lose (3-net hits???) Combat Phases.

Someone help me out here. I'm going from (ancient and decrepit) memory, and am struggling badly.
MadDogMaddux
SR4 p. 149
Melee Combat Weapons Chart
Stun Baton Damage: 6Se*

*e means that the weapon inflicts electricity damage, see p. 154.

ok, here's where I misread

SR4 p. 154

Target struck must make a BOD-WIL test (3). Failure means he is stunned for numper of rounds equal to Net Hits + 2.

If he succeeds, he suffers a -2 dice pool modifier to all action tests for the same period.


dunno where I got the Unconcious thing from.
DireRadiant
p 154

"A successful Electricity
damage attack can stun and incapacitate
the target as well. Th e struck target must make a
Body + Willpower (3) Test. Apply half the character’s Impact
armor (round down) and any other dice pool modifi ers as
noted above to this test. If the target fails, he immediately falls
and is incapacitated for a number of Combat Turns equal to 2
+ net hits scored on the attack test. Even if the target succeeds,
he suff ers a –2 dice pool modifi er to all action tests due to disorientation
from the shock for the same period. Incapacitated
characters are prone and unable to take any actions."
Fortune
So I was pretty much right, except for the 'stunning effect' duration? Yay! smile.gif
krayola red
Wow, that makes the stun baton a pretty badass weapon. Sucking a flat -2 dice penalty if you get hit? That's gotta hurt.
DireRadiant
Makes rating 6 non conductive armor option very attractive.
Fortune
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
Makes rating 6 non conductive armor option very attractive.

Usually one of my very first purchases. wink.gif
MadDogMaddux
Problem is, how well should I equip NPC baddies?


One of my players has the Mossberg Shottie, and the other has the stun baton - so now I need my combat to take place where the Shottie can't be used, and my NPCs need nonconductive armor! nyahnyah.gif
DireRadiant
One is perfectly legal to carry around and won't raise too many eyebrows. The other will make smart people take hard cover immediately, and raise some very serious issues with any person or group capable of responding in kind.

On the other hand, this is what makes a good team. They each cover an area.
MadDogMaddux
Yeah, I just wanna make sure I don't give 'em a cakewalk like that all the time nyahnyah.gif
Garrowolf
Actually I was thinking about high amp stun batons.

Modern stun batons operate in the 2 to 3.5 milliamp range but have high voltage, 200-300 killivolts (up to 900 kV). Going into the 100 milliamp range is considered lethal.

So why not use lethal stun batons? Attach it to a knife or short sword so that it can penetrate the armor (no more nonconductivity). Then dump say 30 amps at say 1 kv. Then all the damage would be lethal but they would also be incapacitated as well. They would probably be dead.
lorechaser
So, a related question:

DO net hits add to damage with tazers, stun batons, and stick and shock?

I couldn't find anything to say they don't, but it's a generally accepted fact that is the case. However, logic and balance would suggest that you shouldn't do that.
Lagomorph
QUOTE (lorechaser)
So, a related question:

DO net hits add to damage with tazers, stun batons, and stick and shock?

I couldn't find anything to say they don't, but it's a generally accepted fact that is the case. However, logic and balance would suggest that you shouldn't do that.

When we were presented with what the rules say and what logic would say, we went with logic.
Big D
I'm not sure that I see why not--an electric charge planted on your forehead will probably do more than one planted on your leg.
knel
QUOTE (lorechaser)
So, a related question:

DO net hits add to damage with tazers, stun batons, and stick and shock?

I couldn't find anything to say they don't, but it's a generally accepted fact that is the case. However, logic and balance would suggest that you shouldn't do that.

If you want to model the enhanced damage from a more accurate hit then use a called shot to reduce armor from the default 1/2 impact. That's my way of integrating the two views.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Big D)
I'm not sure that I see why not--an electric charge planted on your forehead will probably do more than one planted on your leg.

I don't really think it will - the minimal documentation I've read on tasers basically says "try to hit flesh" not "Try to hit certain flesh." I believe that the entire point is that hitting someone *anywhere* is effective - that's why the taser is used.

Course, Knel makes a fine point. And since he's my GM, I'll just start using that as a plan from here on in....

Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (krayola red)
Wow, that makes the stun baton a pretty badass weapon. Sucking a flat -2 dice penalty if you get hit? That's gotta hurt.

...which is why it is an excellent choice for low strength characters.
lorechaser
And also why "Nonconductivity" should be the highest rating on your armor. wink.gif

Jaid
actually, i recommend the defiance ex shocker... 8S to start off instead of 6 wink.gif

as far the accuracy adding to damage, i say why not? it could just as easily represent things working out just right or whatnot.

(as far as taser training not telling you to hit certain targets in preference, i expect that's because you're probably hoping for the incapacitating effect rather than the damage effect, personally. after all, when you're training with a gun for self defense, do they tell you to aim for the head, which is a difficult target, or just to shoot wherever? (for police/etc).
kzt
QUOTE (Jaid)
(as far as taser training not telling you to hit certain targets in preference, i expect that's because you're probably hoping for the incapacitating effect rather than the damage effect, personally.

Tasers, in the real world, don't do any damage. They lock up your muscles and you fall down and can't move until they turn it off. A few seconds to a minute after you they turn it off you are fine. It's rather uncomfortable when it is running, but it doesn't knock you out.
MadDogMaddux
Yeah, but how do you reflect the psychological motivation it gives the target for compliance with a game stat? I think that's why they had to stick with Stun Damage.
kzt
QUOTE (MadDogMaddux @ Oct 12 2006, 10:52 PM)
Yeah, but how do you reflect the psychological motivation it gives the target for compliance with a game stat? I think that's why they had to stick with Stun Damage.

See the Orgasm spell in Steet Magic for an example of an approach.
MadDogMaddux
XD

Oh. My Goodness.


That is just so wrong. *facepalms*
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
Actually I was thinking about high amp stun batons.

...ahh the king size cattle prod with the DDD batteries. Always a favourite.


...oh dear, is my midwestern slip showing? embarrassed.gif
DireRadiant
Stun Baton... more goodness.

Can't it be used simply as a club as well?

Does it make a difference if you consider the 6E stun attack as a touch attack?
MadDogMaddux
technically it IS a touch attack.
Mistwalker
Shock gloves also work well.

And, for the melee combat challenged, there are tasers and stick-n-shock ammo.

The number of hits doesn't increase the damage value of the shock, but it does increase the number of combat turns that the target has the -2 dice pool, or is incapacitated.
DireRadiant
Do stun weapons used as melee weapons get the "Touch Only Attack" Melee modifier. p 148?
DireRadiant
Note also that "grazing hits", where the attacker and defender tie on net hits, do get to apply damage if the attack is based on contact. See p 139, "3. make the Opposed Test".
MadDogMaddux
yup - making the Stun Baton one BADASS weap.
Kyoto Kid
...related in a way...

On my way into work this morning I saw two bike cops (yes, cops on cop bicycles, after all this is Portland OR) break up a drug deal in one of the slightly seedier parts of town. As I prepared to continue on, I heard a distinctive *Pop* and *Sizzle* which caused me to turn around & look. There was one of the guys, slumped against a wall doing the "hippy hippy shake" as 30,000 volts coursed through his body from a taser one of the cops shot him with. Pretty dramatic I must say.

Think I'll get Stun Batons for all my characters.
Zeitgeist
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
Think I'll get Stun Batons for all my characters.


Don't forget Stick-n-Shock. Makes light pistols and holdouts as a backup a lot more atractive.

QUOTE ("MadDogMaddux")
Yeah, but how do you reflect the psychological motivation it gives the target for compliance with a game stat? I think that's why they had to stick with Stun Damage.


Getting shot, or getting zapped. Now THERE'S a hard choice. wink.gif
laughingowl
Having been hit with both modern stun guns.

I dont find the 'stun damage' unreasonably and honestly could accept the rule either way (on do net-hits stage up damage).

Even after the 'muscle spasm' stopped, I felt far far worse then a few bruising punches. WHile I was far from 'knocked out' even 15-20 minues later, I could tell my body was far from top condition and I DID actually have bruising on my legs and arms. the muscle spams aint just you clenching as hard as you can they are the muscle going charlie horse tight).

For 'modern' stun weapons, I would say easily the 'stun daamge' is legit but does not stage up with net-hits (at most I would allow net-hits to help bypass armor, but the 'rated' damage is the maximum it could inflice).

For 'more effective' shadowrun weapons I have no probem with staging the damage up..

Also (n my games atleast) 'knife' or the like non-conductive would still help with. Rules dont I havent seen rules for saying taking damage from a gun ruins your Chemical suit, so taking daamge from a knife/bullet/etc doesnt lower the 'non-conductive' value any.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Zeitgeist)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
Think I'll get Stun Batons for all my characters.


Don't forget Stick-n-Shock. Makes light pistols and holdouts as a backup a lot more atractive.

...yup, Violet's LP is loaded with S&S...

Also good against electronics as well.
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