I'm going to throw this one out as a challenge. I've seen some threads that describe some pretty cool combat sequences. Things went beautifully smooth or spectacularly wrong. I've also read about some really cool, stealthy b&e stuff, like brilliant plans to lift the gadget without setting off a single alarm, leaving behind locked room mysteries worthy of Doyle.
What I don't remember reading are other 'action' scenes. Can anyone tell us about a car or foot chase that was just that, a chase? How about escape from a natural (or artificial) disaster? Any cool Posiedon type-stuff? Anybody have to lift data from a building that was not well guarded, but say... on fire?
Full Version: Putting the 'run' in Shadowrun
Chases are tough to do—either the GM has to have an incredibly detailed picture of the area and be able to accurately convey it, or it degenerates into "I roll, they roll". That can still be tense and exciting for the players, if done well, but doesn't make for good stories.
~J
~J
Another option is to have a sort of template or even a (shudder) random factors kind of list to check where path X leads to. You know, "The cloaked figure ducks under the semi trailer and cuts left towards an alley. At the other end is (roll, roll) a neighborhood festival... yeah, this is a neighborhood of expatriate Aztlaners celebrating the festival of the dead. Many of them are wearing cloaks similar to the guy you're after."
I agree that chases take a lot of preparation. What's helped me in the past is having a couple of stock chase routes prepped for those times when it just kinda happens. If the PC's are doing the chasing, it's way easier because you can prepare where the bad guy is going. If the PC's are being chased, it's way harder to predict.
I agree that chases take a lot of preparation. What's helped me in the past is having a couple of stock chase routes prepped for those times when it just kinda happens. If the PC's are doing the chasing, it's way easier because you can prepare where the bad guy is going. If the PC's are being chased, it's way harder to predict.
The other thing about a PC chase is getting them to actually run.
Kill a few. 
make it part of the run that they can't. screams of railroading, but sometimes the johnsons will ask stuff like that.
I think Dog was suggesting that the GM kill off a few PCs to make them run.
I would just make them run by using overwhelming force. Nothing like having 5 SUVs of mafia with SMGs trying to run you over or shoot you to make your 4 man team want to run.
I would just make them run by using overwhelming force. Nothing like having 5 SUVs of mafia with SMGs trying to run you over or shoot you to make your 4 man team want to run.
sooo...
Has anybody actually pulled this off and got a good story? In my opinion, it's one of the biggest challenges in rpg's, potentially very rewarding, and not addressed nearly often enough.
Has anybody actually pulled this off and got a good story? In my opinion, it's one of the biggest challenges in rpg's, potentially very rewarding, and not addressed nearly often enough.
I haven't had many chase sequences, but one stands particularly stands out for me.
Keep in mind, I'm more of a cinematic GM, and like cool action (I still require rolls for the stuff, etc.)
The players were acting as bodyguards for this guy visiting Seattle (I can't remember who or what he was there for; it doesn't matter).
This cyberzombie assassin is sent after the guy, and I remember correctly, succeeds. He doesn't do a great job of it though (rather obvious), and the players proceed to chase after him. He gets in his sports car, wihle the players get in their rigger's sports car. After a cool but brief stint in the city they pull out onto the highway, and they begin shooting the crap out of his vehicle, eventually totaling it.
To survive being in an awful wreck, the guy decides to take his chances (he has lots of karma, really bad-ass cyber and skills) and jump out of the car rolling (the door has been blown off by this point).
The guy botches.
The result was not pretty.
It was dramatic and tense for awhile but quickly turned into shock and hilarity
Keep in mind, I'm more of a cinematic GM, and like cool action (I still require rolls for the stuff, etc.)
The players were acting as bodyguards for this guy visiting Seattle (I can't remember who or what he was there for; it doesn't matter).
This cyberzombie assassin is sent after the guy, and I remember correctly, succeeds. He doesn't do a great job of it though (rather obvious), and the players proceed to chase after him. He gets in his sports car, wihle the players get in their rigger's sports car. After a cool but brief stint in the city they pull out onto the highway, and they begin shooting the crap out of his vehicle, eventually totaling it.
To survive being in an awful wreck, the guy decides to take his chances (he has lots of karma, really bad-ass cyber and skills) and jump out of the car rolling (the door has been blown off by this point).
The guy botches.
The result was not pretty.
It was dramatic and tense for awhile but quickly turned into shock and hilarity
i'm actually going to do this on wednesday. i'll let you know how it goes. it'll be more running combat than chase, but if you guys want to know i'll post it.
I think it would be hard to have a good session involving running and chasing without a map and minis to work out the details of line of sight and cover, and maybe declaring the edge of the map the "safe" zone for whomever is trying to escape.
Otherwise, this whole thing with "firearms" makes running away over amorphous or open terrain kind of a joke. (Unless the GM says, "Uh, you no longer have line of sight...because he ran behind a, uh, house. You'll have to run randomly for a few more combat turns until I declare that he's arbitrarily back in line of sight.")
Otherwise, this whole thing with "firearms" makes running away over amorphous or open terrain kind of a joke. (Unless the GM says, "Uh, you no longer have line of sight...because he ran behind a, uh, house. You'll have to run randomly for a few more combat turns until I declare that he's arbitrarily back in line of sight.")
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| I think Dog was suggesting that the GM kill off a few PCs to make them run. I would just make them run by using overwhelming force. Nothing like having 5 SUVs of mafia with SMGs trying to run you over or shoot you to make your 4 man team want to run. |
...well a whole bunch of go-gangers works just as good.
This happened in a session a while back. KK was in a car belonging to one of the other team members and forced to drive during the getaway (defaulting since she had the highest Reaction attribute). The chase was actually pretty well handled. At one point one of the troll gangers jumped on the roof of the car and punched a side window out. KK of course instictively slammed on the brakes, he blew his agility test & went flying off the car. She also managed to "trade a little paint" with a couple of the pursuing bikes sending them and their riders flying. Unfortunately her luck eventully ran out and she blew her test smashing into a parked car (but successfully dislodged the second troll who had jumped on the roof).
After this, she thought it wise to actually learn how to drive.
Our group had a great chase in SR3. We needed to send a message to the Yaks in SF that the east bay was off limits so we prepared an ambush in Fremont. We had borrowed one of those snazzy blade runneresque police interceptor cars then we drove over to Redwood City or close and did a driveby at a Yak hang out. Then I drove down the block a bit and waited for them to pile into their cars and follow.
Pretty nifty chase ensued where I got to drive down the center divider of the Dumbarton bridge at crazy high speeds. Drove through a water elemental at one point.
Anyway I led them to our prepped neighborhood and our guys made swiss cheese out of them. And the punchline.....My character didn't even know how to drive. He was defaulting with a ton of dice. "So you turn this wheel thing right?"
Pretty nifty chase ensued where I got to drive down the center divider of the Dumbarton bridge at crazy high speeds. Drove through a water elemental at one point.
Anyway I led them to our prepped neighborhood and our guys made swiss cheese out of them. And the punchline.....My character didn't even know how to drive. He was defaulting with a ton of dice. "So you turn this wheel thing right?"
[Edit] - added spoiler tags
KK's first driving experience from her backstory.
Finally got to the scene's end.
KK's first driving experience from her backstory.
Finally got to the scene's end.
[ Spoiler ]
One of the great moments in our group's game was probably the rigger running from another shadowrunner team. Only for the scene itself, though. It only occured due to a few minutes of momumental stupidity on the rigger's part, and annoyed some other players with how long it took. Also, he could get pretty stupid in RP.
Actually, come to think of it there were two scenes. One on foot, and the other on his bike.
By the way, that's another way to run a chase scene. Be willing to BS the surroundings as you go.
Here's both scenes in spoiler tags for the length. I cut out all the rolls I was making.
Actually, come to think of it there were two scenes. One on foot, and the other on his bike.
By the way, that's another way to run a chase scene. Be willing to BS the surroundings as you go.
Here's both scenes in spoiler tags for the length. I cut out all the rolls I was making.
[ Spoiler ]
[ Spoiler ]
i took part in a mostly-finished sneak-fight-escape. it starts at 01:27:13/07-01-2067 here, and continues here. i thought it came out pretty well, even though we never got around to concluding it.
i like mobility adepts, so my scenes with Race tend to have a lot more running and jumping and stuff than is strictly required.
i like mobility adepts, so my scenes with Race tend to have a lot more running and jumping and stuff than is strictly required.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i like mobility adepts, so my scenes with Race tend to have a lot more running and jumping and stuff than is strictly required. |
We really need to have her and Tyler team up some time. It would make mo'fo's dizzy.
i think the best i have done is from the curent game we have going. I got to use my saying of " if this works it will be really cool. so alright... we were hired to break into a bank and still some locked boxes. so we did the boring part of breaking in i dissabled all the locks an the safe and ran around the guards. alright this is were it gets good. the guy that came in with me grabed on of the boxes before i could search it for traps. so he grabs it and gas began to fill the room and the gate began to close so we both ran and slid under the gate only to be shot by guards...he had improved invisibility, and i had a supper reuthinium suit. but they say me. so i took a light would only beacause all they had were small revolvers. The best part of this is that the bank was 2 blocks from a lonestar station. so i stood up looked around....cant go back the way we came and infrom of me is the bulletproof glass soooo i ran toward the window i fired a few quick burst at the edges of the windows near the fram hoping it would weakin it just a bit. so i flinched my arms and my wrist katanas came out of my arms and i dove...crashed through the window thank god. i could just see my self getin caught in the middle of the window. but as soon as i came through the window i heard the screech of tires and a lonestar patrol 1 came up the front of the building. so i rolled on the ground and jumped on the hood of the car and ran over the top and began to run for my bike. all the while my buddy had just walked up the window stepped through and saw the 2 cops pull there shotguns and leveling them at me. so he casually walked up the hood of the car and decapited both of them. so i jumped on my bike and ran like the wind down sidewalk weaven in and out of cars and people and while being chased by a lone stare 1. so i jumped the bike on a guard rail and then jumped and ramped a dumpster and fired my last round of apds into the car and hit (randomly) the police in the face. so thats my story and i only used 2 karma so it worked and it was freekin cool 
Is this another Adpet™ problem?
I'm not sure there's anything my group would run from. Those guys seem intent (and able) to cack nearly anything short of a dragon. There's always supernatural fear effects, but those always seem so cheesy. They get real bummed out when I take control of their characters and tell them they're "afraid of the mean hell-doggie".
| QUOTE (Gabriel (Argus #2323) @ Oct 21 2006, 02:45 AM) |
| I'm not sure there's anything my group would run from. Those guys seem intent (and able) to cack nearly anything short of a dragon. There's always supernatural fear effects, but those always seem so cheesy. They get real bummed out when I take control of their characters and tell them they're "afraid of the mean hell-doggie". |
That's often a problem with certain groups. Particularly when they've come from a D&D background or similar - they just don't know that they're supposed to run. One thing I've done is to send them against a powerful opponent so they get an idea that it is dangerous and then later on, shown that opponent killed by a second enemy. That threw them enough to spook them. Another time (albeit in D&D), I persuaded them to run through adding the enemies bit by bit. First they saw a couple of goblin wolf-riders flitting through the forest which of course they wanted to fight but were unable to catch. As the evening drew in though, the howls of the wolves communicating and the various glimpses of more and more drawing in from the surrounding hillsides started to get them moving a little faster. By the end (as the winter evening turned to night), they were racing for the safety of a torchlit manor house as numerous silent grey shadows raced after them. All without a single round of combat.
The trick in both of them was getting round the players preconception that they were up against balanced opponents that were set up for them to kill by giving them that to begin with so they could convince themselves of that, and then suddenly twisting it to give them something worse. The first time is always hardest. Once you get them running, they're easier to scare later on.
The first time one of them runs empty of rounds from shooting grunts that know how to keep behind cover, they will all know when to run. You just have to regulate how many spare full magazines they are allowed to carry based off of their streagth.
They will either learn to shoot smarter or run when they encounter a group of that size again.
They will either learn to shoot smarter or run when they encounter a group of that size again.
My group is practical or greedy enough to realize that the more you stay and fight, not only do you use more resources, but end up attracting more attention to yourself so even more resources are expended. Its not just about ammo, but even blowing a huge amount of ammo adds up, things like expendable foci, and especailly downed drones are fair to bank-breaking depending on how much the runners are payed, not to mention replacing and refitting said drones.
We use whatever force we need to win clear and get the hell outta there. Next time they don't run, down a few drones, blow a few permanent foci, and have them trailed via drone back to their hideout or meet. Don't kill any characters if you don't have to just hint that the quicker they flee from the scene of their latest crime the less hassle and less expensive it is for them.
We use whatever force we need to win clear and get the hell outta there. Next time they don't run, down a few drones, blow a few permanent foci, and have them trailed via drone back to their hideout or meet. Don't kill any characters if you don't have to just hint that the quicker they flee from the scene of their latest crime the less hassle and less expensive it is for them.
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| The first time one of them runs empty of rounds from shooting grunts that know how to keep behind cover, they will all know when to run. You just have to regulate how many spare full magazines they are allowed to carry based off of their streagth. |
You will either be waiting a very long time or be imposing unreasonable restrictions. Except in certain special circumstances that amount, essentially, to downright fortifications, any enemy with a reasonable chance of hitting you in SR is a decent target.
~J
Where would one keep a whole lot of ammo? LBVs and simular setups can only hold so much. I think a team that stays to fight would run out of ammo fairly quickly. Backpacks full of extra magazines would knock any shot of stealth right out the window.
It all depends on the situation, but it's pretty easy to fit four magazines on one's person, plus a pouch of loose ammo. I think what you're missing is how little ammo it takes to reliably hit and kill someone in Shadowrun as compare to RL.
~J
~J
With cover, lighting, weather and all other sorts of modifiers in SR it can actually be damn near impossible to hit someone. I'd actually say around 7-8 mags. is max to carry without using pockets or taping them onto your character, if they are roughly the size of an M16 mag..
What type of weapon used can be a factor in ammo. Are the characters using Pistols, SMGs, or ARs? Let's say an Ares Alpha which can hold 42rnds in a magazine (clip in SR terms). With 8 mags. you have 336 rounds, not counting grenades but let's ignore those for now. Not many are going to use single shots with this weapon so it's either going to be 3rnd burst or autofire, both of which make those 336 rounds disappear rather quickly.
What type of weapon used can be a factor in ammo. Are the characters using Pistols, SMGs, or ARs? Let's say an Ares Alpha which can hold 42rnds in a magazine (clip in SR terms). With 8 mags. you have 336 rounds, not counting grenades but let's ignore those for now. Not many are going to use single shots with this weapon so it's either going to be 3rnd burst or autofire, both of which make those 336 rounds disappear rather quickly.
See? Somehow it always comes back to the gun fighting. No slight against my fellow posters, just pointing out how difficult it is to do action without combat. Even as we discussed chases, they all included good guys and bad guys. (Or bad-guys and bad guys.)
Weird. Is that just the way we're used to playing? Do we play combat because the rules cover it more, or do the rules cover it more because that's how people play? Is a non-combat action scene possible?
To look at it from the junior-high English class perspective: We have man-vs-man conflict down pat. What about man-vs-environment?
Weird. Is that just the way we're used to playing? Do we play combat because the rules cover it more, or do the rules cover it more because that's how people play? Is a non-combat action scene possible?
To look at it from the junior-high English class perspective: We have man-vs-man conflict down pat. What about man-vs-environment?
Having non-combat scenes is very possible. Take a meet for instance. However a non-combat action scene is much harder, because someone will always want to duke it out. Possible? Sure have them try to outrun an avalanche or a stampede of elephants in their vehicle, however this will most likely only have the driver doing things leaving the rest of the group out of the action.
So, possible yes, possible to do with everyone evolved and without combat? I doubt it.
So, possible yes, possible to do with everyone evolved and without combat? I doubt it.
| QUOTE (Angelone) |
| With cover, lighting, weather and all other sorts of modifiers in SR it can actually be damn near impossible to hit someone. |
Right, but it's very hard to create a situation where it's damn near impossible for Person A to hit Person B but isn't almost as hard for Person B to hit Person A, assuming that Person A is a member of a typical Shadowrunner team—while a few members are likely to be hit with penalties on various things, only cover is really reliable in my experience, and that gives the person using cover a modifier equal to half the modifier the attacker gets in all but exceptional circumstances.
If the runners are trapped, they'll have to spend ammo trying to make those shots. If not, they can (if they've already decided not to run) pretty much just wait for the opposition to either run out of ammo themselves or come out of cover and get shot.
As for player-vs.-environment chase sequences, they suffer from the same problems as ordinary chase sequences, only you don't have to roll one of the sides. Really, I think the problem with vs-environment is that a big part of the thrill of environmental hazards is the possibility of death even without doing anything visibly wrong. That is necessarily cut in Shadowrun, because getting killed for no avoidable reason isn't much fun.
~J
If the runners are trapped all the security guards have to do is what for the runners to run out of ammo, come out of their cover, or for the big guns to show up. Then the runners will have wish they had run.
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| See? Somehow it always comes back to the gun fighting. No slight against my fellow posters, just pointing out how difficult it is to do action without combat. Even as we discussed chases, they all included good guys and bad guys. (Or bad-guys and bad guys.) |
part of the problem, i'd say, is that it's hard to come up with good non-combat action scenarios. i mean, let's look at chases--why do they occur? because at least one party wants to get into combat with another, right? if one party or the other thinks they've got a shot at affecting the other with an attack, they'll do so--and there goes the whole "non-combat" thing.
in order to do non-combat action scenes, you basically have to remove combat from the list of possibilities. the "enemy" in a non-combat scene has to be something that can't be fought. a sinking ship, say, or an avalanche, or a collapsing building--an event or situation that must be escaped and/or stopped.
and, well... SR is, at its core, a game about violent crime. you can make a game that happens on a sinking ship, sure, but such things aren't really going to be the norm, y'know?
| QUOTE (Angelone) |
| If the runners are trapped all the security guards have to do is what for the runners to run out of ammo, come out of their cover, or for the big guns to show up. Then the runners will have wish they had run. |
No, they won't wish that. Why not? As you said yourself, because they're trapped.
Ok, so they probably would wish it, right next to wishing they could grow wings and fly away. They wouldn't be regretting not doing it, though, because in the scenario you present it was never an option.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| If the runners are trapped, they'll have to spend ammo trying to make those shots. If not, they can (if they've already decided not to run) pretty much just wait for the opposition to either run out of ammo themselves or come out of cover and get shot. |
You brought the trapped bit up I was just rolling with it. In my mind they were trapped because they were surrounded or their escape options were removed because they didn't run in the first place, and allowed themselves to become trapped.
I brought "trapped" up as the only reason they'd run out of ammo—otherwise they'd run or wait for a better shot, because it's very difficult to cause a situation where the runners are in danger of getting shot but whoever's shooting them isn't.
Vehicles aside, but vehicles usually create another kind of "trapped"—they can run, but they can't get away.
~J
Vehicles aside, but vehicles usually create another kind of "trapped"—they can run, but they can't get away.
~J
Thing is, waiting for a better shot isn't always an option for runners who are operating on a limited window of opportunity. The security guards can afford to wait because all the action is happening on their turf, and the longer the combat drags on, the more time the reinforcements have to show up. The runners, for the exact same reason, need to get the job done as fast as possible - if you can't advance, sometimes the best thing to do is retreat.
Right, so the runners will either eventually run or become trapped. What they probably won't do until they become trapped, though, is run out of ammo.
~J
~J
Yeah, so it wouldn't be necessary to create a situation where the runners are in danger of getting shot, but their opponents aren't in order to get them to run. All you need to do is create a situation that eliminates further advancement as a prudent option, and that isn't hard to do at all.
you might be really, really surprised at how long it takes most players to realize that they should run away.
For some weird reason, the whole discussion is operating on the presumption that the runners are acting in a rational and intelligent way, which in retrospect has jack all to do with the original proposal since the whole point is to get players who refuse to run to do so. In that situation, it's entirely possible for the runners to run out of ammo before they attempt a retreat.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you might be really, really surprised at how long it takes most players to realize that they should run away. |
and by the time they do reallise it, its too late. Thats when you kill off their characters in a battle where they fight valiantly to the death, then rewind the world like it didnt happen and give them the option again.
| QUOTE (krayola red) |
| For some weird reason, the whole discussion is operating on the presumption that the runners are acting in a rational and intelligent way, which in retrospect has jack all to do with the original proposal since the whole point is to get players who refuse to run to do so. |
Unfortunately, though, this is an RPG—due to the lack of immediacy and personal involvement we can't fall back on human nature to figure out what players will do, because they could do anything from act rationally to attack the darkness and everything on the spectrum in between (granted, including firing at guards until they realize that they've crossed all the magazines off their character sheet). Barring specific knowledge about the personalities of the players involved, all we can do in terms of predicting behaviour is assume rational actors.
~J
| QUOTE (Angelone) |
| What type of weapon used can be a factor in ammo. Are the characters using Pistols, SMGs, or ARs? Let's say an Ares Alpha which can hold 42rnds in a magazine (clip in SR terms). With 8 mags. you have 336 rounds, not counting grenades but let's ignore those for now. Not many are going to use single shots with this weapon so it's either going to be 3rnd burst or autofire, both of which make those 336 rounds disappear rather quickly. |
I don't know how long your game sessions last, but even if players are doing 10 round autofire three times a round, that's ten rounds of combat you've just played through. Ten rounds I might add, where you have enough enemies to stop the players in their tracks and resist all the tie-breakers the players are likely to pull out such as spells, grenades, smoke bombs, hacking, sustained-Deflection-sustained-Armour--AV-wearing-wade-through-the-gunfire-and-start-climbing-the-barriers-melee troll, and of course, that saved for just such an occasion Force 7 bound Earth Elemental. And all as the prelude to a chase scene.
If I ever threw such a contrived set-up at my players I'd face a hard rain of dice and I know it.
This also only works if I want the players to be chased by a bunch of low-level security guards. How do I get them running when we play through "Oh No! There's a Shapeshifter Loose In the City" (I should so have my adventures published
). I go back to my earlier examples. If you want players to run, you have to give them cues early and play mind games.Getting back to non-combat action scenes in general, though. Why has this whole thread been focused on the PCs running. Maybe you should just go with their expectations and have the NPC(s) run. Has anyone else seen Banlieu 13 ? The chase at the beginning where Leito is scarpering across roof-tops and jumping down stair wells is a perfect non-combat action scene. By all means, have the players in some mad pursuit across the barrens.
Has anybody dared to play in a group of non-combative characters? Sure, it ain't smart, but it could be a whole different kind of challenge to make unarmed, stealthy, highly mobile characters who flee because that's what they're good at.
How about disaster scenarios like mfb mentioned? Anyone played something like that? Anyone written or run one?
How about disaster scenarios like mfb mentioned? Anyone played something like that? Anyone written or run one?
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| Has anybody dared to play in a group of non-combative characters? Sure, it ain't smart, but it could be a whole different kind of challenge to make unarmed, stealthy, highly mobile characters who flee because that's what they're good at. |
...Had one character, Lana Lane the Ace Reporter who had very minimal combat skill, (Pistols 4 and a strength of 2 with no Unarmed skill). I don't even think she used her Morressy Elite more than once.
The rest of the team (eg Players) hated her since she didn't contribute much in a combat. But when it came to schmoozing her way in to secure areas to provide recon and doing legwork, she more than did her part to contribute to the party's overall success on several missions.
Very under appreciated yet very effective character.
Shadowrun, 3rd edition
Team of runners has decided that getting milspec armor from their fixer / contacts just wasn't going to work. They decide to break into a nearby installation to steal some. Long time group (200 karma), figure they can do it with minimal notice, in and out no problem. Things go wrong. They make it back to the rigged vehicle (an RV) RV crests hill just as two attack copters rise up out of base and begin chase. Runners in RV throw open back doors to return fire at helicopters. RV is weaving, back and forth on a dirt road, dodging missiles, jumping hills, trying to shake pursuit. Rigger turns on internal speaker system. Everyone can clearly hear... "On the road again. Just can't wait to get on the road again..."
Team of runners has decided that getting milspec armor from their fixer / contacts just wasn't going to work. They decide to break into a nearby installation to steal some. Long time group (200 karma), figure they can do it with minimal notice, in and out no problem. Things go wrong. They make it back to the rigged vehicle (an RV) RV crests hill just as two attack copters rise up out of base and begin chase. Runners in RV throw open back doors to return fire at helicopters. RV is weaving, back and forth on a dirt road, dodging missiles, jumping hills, trying to shake pursuit. Rigger turns on internal speaker system. Everyone can clearly hear... "On the road again. Just can't wait to get on the road again..."
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.