Introduction:

My first, and second attempts at this introduction turned out entirely too long winded. Let me suffice it to say that my RPG experience is almost exclusively inside of a 24/7, live-roleplay text-based online environment, run by a handful of staff members, with a playerbase that would not fit comfortably in most people's living rooms. The hours I've logged in this sort of environment absolutely dwarf any tabletop campaigns.

The genre has been alive for some time, with several of my fellow text-based gamers going at it for well over a decade, and it is a genre of RPGs that is, quite obviously, not limited merely to Shadowrun.

The change from Shadowrun 2nd edition, to Shadowrun 3rd edition was a fairly smooth change. However, from 3rd to 4th is seeming a bit more daunting.

We've already been able to write the majority of the themeatic backbone of our setting, but implimenting mechanics is another thing altogether. So, that said, I'd like to poll what I believe is the single largest collection of experienced Shadowrun players in the World: The Dumpshock Forums.

The Question:

What/How would you do/change to 4th edition to play in the above environment?

The Stipulations:

Keep in mind this genre of roleplay is run by multiple GMs, who provide a 24/7 tabletop experience, that consists of both active shadowrunning, as well as roleplayed 'downtime'. Excessive houserules run the risk of alienating players who are interested in the genre, but unfamiliar with the ruleset. Additionally, this genre of gaming doesn't 'reset' at the end of a campaign. The duration of one single 'campaign' lasted the entire duration of an edition of Shadowrun, from launch, to completion (And, incidentially, is -still- going on, in lieu of upgrading to 4th edition.)

Players are free to allow their character to accumulate karma, with no limit imposed on growth potential other than their own motivation to participate in the game, or their own ability to stay alive. (Yes, in some rare cases, players have refused to let go of their PCs even as they slowly, but surely, hit the 500 Karma marks.) And alternately, a player can just as easily retire their character, and go back through character generation to begin with a fresh concept.

The Solution:

So, once more: How does 4th Edition Shadowrun need to be changed? Does it at all? What are your opinions, as fellow Dumpshockers, if -you- were playing in a game environment that didn't stop, when you did, had unlimited growth potential, and lacked the fine degree of control that a single GM in a tabletop environment had.

I've really like to know, as our project team is having a few disputes regarding which direction to take this latest edition of the game.

One serious concern your going to have to look at since campaigns just don't end are Mages and Technomancers. Magic and Resonance doesn't cap. They could get seriously insanely powerful, with enough karma invested.

I don't necessarily think anything needs to be changed from the rules. Of course I don't know exactly how you have this online game implemented. Is it a MUD, MOO, or something else. Is there an actual established, built online world or do the GMs create the world just like tabletop session. Could you clarify a bit more about what this is?

MUX. The environment consists of 'rooms' which hold descriptions based on anything from a regional zone, down to a specific pier-side cafe. No, it doesn't have coded 'Encounters' or 'Roaming Bad Guys' like a MUD. All rolls (Using a +roll code), with few exceptions, are taken by connected staff members, identically to the manner of which a GM would take them in a tabletop session, to include visible, or 'hidden', or player-list-specific rolls.

And yes. The near-limitless expansion of magic has always been a problem with Shadowrun, particularly inside of this type of RPG genre.

I too would need more details about how the "world" is set up.

I would suggest that you stick to RAW, with possibly the tweak rule options in the BBB.

I wouldn't worry about the no-cap on magic and resonnance, not if you have chars that have over 500 karma. It would take something like 294 karma to raise magic from 6 to 12 (attribute and initiation). No new spells, or skills. In that time, your sammy or other chars, can have accumulated a fortune for delta implants, etc...

The only thing I can think of then off the top of my head is making sure you define the ambiguous. The one I have in mind is hacking. Everyone has their own way of how hacking works per raw. I would suggest reading Serbitar's Guide to the Matrix. You can find it here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12797

I would also suggest looking at some of his other guides too. Serbitar's house rules could also be helpful in giving you an idea of what you might need to fix or live with.

No changes needed really. It sounds like you've got a PC version of a tabletop game, and SR4 runs fineo n the tabletop.

RAW Game Mechanics <> Gameplay.

Adjusting the base mechanics may help influence the play, but ultimately it is entirely up to GM policy and enforcement to generate play style and rules to achieve the overall game effect you want.

It's very likely the same problems you have in SR3 are the same type of problems in SR4, just to greater or lesser degrees.

Game Environment --> Policy --> Game Mechanics

Only at the point at which the game mechanics directly interfere with intended environment and policy do you need to alter the game mechanics.

To answer your question though...

What problems do you currently have and what is the example of how you have solved it? (We can take a look at a comparable issue in SR3 and see if hte same solution works or not)

What kind of problems do you expect?

It will be much more useful to describe a very specific problem, then you get a detailed and specific answers to consider.

The rule tweak that I was mostly thinking of is on p69, grittier section, 1st tweak.
That tweak is to limit the number of successes to no more than 2x the skill.
I believe that this may help with your concern about attibute vs skill concern.

Apart from redoing the matrix rules (which doesn't sound like you want to do), there are really just fuzzy points that would need to be more clearly defined.

Like:
When rigging, why do riggers use Agility for Gunnery?
How do partial Cyberlimbs add damage boxes compared to full cyberlimbs?
How are the hit boxes for vehicles determined?

SandS? honestly? don't play SR4. i'm not saying this because i dislike SR4 (though i do), but because SR4 is not designed for that type of play. the entire basis of the game system will break for every single character in a relatively short time, because of the small difference between starting-level and the utter peak of ability. fixing that would require a lot, lot, lot more work than updating SR3 (which is, in and of itself, a hell of a lot of work).

Mmm... Yeah. Definitely a daunting task.

You understand, then, why I'm polling Dumpshock for some suggestions.

Follow up on the Cyberlimbs: Do Cyberhands affect gunfire? Not arms, but simply hands.

Are you deliberately not telling us the address/name of the MUX to which you are referring?

So, in other words, yes.

I would like to add to this thread by saying that what should be done is a group of interested programmers create a MMOG version of SR4. It would have to be a freelance project but when it is done it could be presented to Microsoft and FASA studios (who own the rights to any SR game) with also the blessing of Wizkids and FanPro (who own the rights to SR4). If the game is not approved the game could be slightly modified so it has a SR feel and play but not the name or terms that would make it break any contracts. SR in my mind would make the ultimate MMOG due to the rich back story and limited possibilities for character development.

I would love to be a part of this group if it were made and I have some ideas on where to start. First off I would suggest using the Torque engine as it is relatively easy to learn (given you already know C++) and it would save having to create a games engine from scratch. I would also suggest a direct translation of the SR4 rules or SR3 rules with SR4 equipment. I think that the SR4 time setting allows for a much larger range of character types and I like the idea of AR in the game. For the server side of the house I would suggest that each "area" (either one Megaplex, or barren country side, etc) was hosted on one server and players are transferred from server to server as they go to different locations in the games world. This will mean that the main server (Seattle) will have to be able to handle the traffic load.

Comments?

I think I know what S&S is talking about, or rather where he's talking about. Or, at least, I've played in similar areas.

If it _is_ the place I think it is, I'm a little surprised that it's making the switch. However, I think one of the problems with the curve was the whole idea of nominations, in that while it's a good complement to running?

All too often, you get people amassing karma without actually going on runs, and then you've got a multi-init barfly, and that's just no good.

The issue of characters who do little running, and earn the majority of their karma through social means is always a tough nut to crack in this environment. On one hand, due to time zone constraints, some players will naturally fall into time slots that will have more active staff members available for plots connected. This may be perceived as unfair. Alternately, however, without karma generated for social RP, some players may not feel as 'encouraged' to continue to spawn life into the 24/7 environment, even during downtime, which can lead to the type of game that is only alive when there's a plot going on, and has little ability to be self-sustaining otherwise.

Perhaps, if you're familiar with the genre, you've seen more than your fair share of sites with large connection logs, and most of them consisting of player objects idling away in one of the Out-Of-Character rooms.

This is entirely an aside note to the intention of this thread, but this issue is why karma generated from plots will provide the vast -bulk- of karma earned, and why downtime Roleplay earns a much less significant share. It is important to facilitate roleplay in all it's forms, but also important to remember that at the core, the game is ShadowRun, and not BarFlyRun.

Rest assured that despite any experiences you may have had in the past, our crew is experienced enough in the MUX genre to make the liklihood of that becoming a reoccuring issue a very slim chance. A much more daunting task is merely porting 4th Edition Shadowrun into the MUX environment to begin with.

if someone thinks that Edge contributes, then yes. it's 3am, and if i have any specific problems with Edge, i can't recall them just now.

Interesting thought. I'd never considered doing a Online Shadowrun Sim Game, but I suppose it is possible. I developed a fairly successful sim based on Final Fantasy Tactics (the old one on Playstation) called Heroes of Ivalice. We currently have 240-ish active players there. I definately think something similar could be applied to Shadowrun, but that would take a LOT of time to develop the systems, set up the RP location boards, etc.

It's simply an RPG set up via message boards but with a strategic element placed in. Roleplaying threads are put up representing different locations. Hidden boards are used for each faction and viewable only to the usergroup that links to said faction. Progress is achieved by taking cities or accomplishing storyline plots. Time is kept track of by use of Game Months. It's a fairly simple game design, but takes a lot of staff, effort, and attention to detail (not to mention a large playerbase) in order to make it successful.

Here's a rough example with a Shadowrun spin:

Rules - 4th edition with additions for sim environment
SR HQ - Game Turns, Maps, Corporate and Goverment Proclamations, Rumors, etc.
RP Board - Threads contained could include Seattle RP, Denver RP, Shadowrun Alpha against Novatech, etc. etc.
Aztechnology Recruiting Office - Public board for those who want to join those crazy blood mages
DIMR Recruiting Office - Public board for those who believe in Dunkelzahn's vision
Shadowland Planning Hall - Hidden board for shadowrunners
Ares Planning Hall - Hidden board for Ares corporation players
UCAS Planning Hall - Hidden board for UCAS government players
Winternight Planning Hall - Hidden board for those guys that want to end the world

The dice are from:

Agility 7 (5 purchased, muscle toner 2). Automatics 6, specialized in SMGs. (15). A smartlink (17). Enhanced Articulation (18). Adept power: Improved Combat Ability: Automatics 2 (20).

19 dice can easily be achieved similarly by taking reflex recorder (Automatics). Similarly, a pure adept could purchase Improved Ability 3: Agility and improved combat 3.

So it's a focused build, but not truly a min maxed one.

It requires a high agility, which all gunners have. It requires a 6 skill and a specialization, which is 26 BP. It requires either:

1. Three pieces of ware (Muscle Toner 2, Enhanced Articulation, and reflex recorders) which cost .4 ess/16k, .3ess/40k , and .1 ess/10k. So .8 ess/66k (13 bp)
2. Two adept powers: Improved Combat Ability: Automatics 2 (1.5 pts, or 20 bp), and improved agility 3 (3 points, or 30 bp). So 4.5 pp, or 5 magic, which is 55 bp (Adept + pp)
3. Two pieces of ware (Muscle Toner 2, Enhanced Articulation) for .7 ess and 56k, and One adept power: Improved Combat ability Automatics 2 (1 pp), which costs you 36 bp (56k == 11, Adept == 5, 2 magic points = 20)

So none of them are a truly deep investment.

While it was my understanding that the 'Physical Skills' Bonus provided by Enhanced articulation did not carry over into Firearm/Combat skills in this edition, the point is, none the less, taken.

However, one of the advantages of the MUSH/MUX environment is that 'One-Trick-Ponies' can really suffer. In a tabletop environment, you are involved in a DeFacto team. You always run with them. You'll always, more or less, have much of their abilities at your disposal, to fill your own gaps. However, in a MUSH/MUX, players are generally required to fend for themselves. They won't always be around when team-mates are (Assuming they form a team), nor will they always be on the run with people who are able to fill gaps they may have.

That means failure from over-specialization can really be an option, without clear communication of abilities between the players that find themselves working together.

That said, I am grimacing a little when I think about having characters like those run amuck on our grid. In shadowrun 3rd edition, starting off with a 6 in a skill was pretty solid. But it was hardly the end-all-be-all of expertise. Now it seems like starting the game as the absolute best in a field, with little room for advancement is a possibility. And that changes the very nature of the game.

Enhanced Articulation is a bit iffy. But as you said, that's 1 die.

The issue is, that character isn't necessarily a one trick pony. The lower cost to get 18 dice in a combat skill is 13 for ware, leaving 37 points for other gear (such as wired reflexes or synpatic boosters, and various runner supplies like guns, armor, flash-paks, etc). Agility 5 is 50 points, unless you're a troll. Automatics (AR) 6 is 26 points.

So you're looking at 89 points, including stats, skills and gear.

That's less than one quarter of starting BP.

Assuming another 150 points for attributes, that's 239. Spend 10 on buying 50k nuyen worth of shadowrun gear, and you still are only at 249. That's 150 points to spend on contacts and skills. 10 points of contacts is reasonable, so 140 points of skills. Even if you buy another 100k worth of ware and vehicles, that's 120 points of skills, or 30 skill points. That's 7 skills at 4. Conservatively, dodge and perception take up two, leaving you 5 skills at rank 4 to choose from. Not too bad.

Not incredibly well rounded, but not nearly incompetent beyond their field.

However, there is a greater issue, as you point out. You won't have a team. You won't have friends. So you may need to buy 4 skill groups and 20 points of contacts just to make it on your own....

A similar problem with hyperspecialization ended up poking its head where I played. Sure, there were gun shooters and twenty dice punchers and so on.

But what really stood out the most to me were the Doctors and Enchanters. Sure, they didn't get the most runs, but they didn't have to. They just could install cyberware or make fetishes for a fraction of the cost and end up getting paid in noms.

Personally, I love having Doctors and Enchanters played as PCs. They provide Utility, feed the PC economy, provide services to PCs, and facilitate Roleplay that does not require Game Master initiative.

Do they get +nominations for their RP? I sure hope so, considering everything they offer. Have I seen some Cyber/Ripper-Docs turn shadowrunner? Sure. Is that really that bad? Enh. I'm really not convinced, yet.

The problem with having doctor and enchanter PCs is that they severely undercut the prices of pretty much any other NPC doctor or enchanter. And, basically, the game can pretty much go to their mercy if they decide to just bugger off for a while or retire or whatnot, not to mention that some of them will outright refuse to work on you for trivial reasons.

Admittedly, this is more of a problem in SR3 than in SR4, in which the cyberware installation rules in 3 ended up with nonsense like six-figure installation plans and chances of horribly getting screwed up in the process.

Yeah, I hear you. Don't confuse my appreciation for what Doc/Enchanters offer the grid as any advocacy for removing the existing NPC service infrastructure, though.

PC vendors aren't, and should never be, the only service providers in a city.

And this, of course, extends to PC fixers.