I really like how Magic Resistance is a quality that can be taken exclusively by mundane character's. I've always had a problem with mundane's relying on awakened characters to provide them with counterspelling dice.

So much so, infact, that I was immensely pleased when we house-ruled a 'Magic Resistance' complimentary knowledge skill (TN: 4, every 2 successes achieve 1 success on a spell resistance test) into Shadowrun 3rd edition.

But I've often wondered if it would be that far fetched to increase the amount of immunity to magic they're capable of.

One thing that has come up for discussion involves something that in practice works very similiar to a foci, is bondable by Mundanes, and provides dice to spell resistance tests. Another option is something similiar to injected nanites that circulate through a mundane's bloodstream, bonding with their aura, and likewise, increasing spell resistance dice.

Thoughts?

Just allow the mundanes to learn the Counterspelling skill. I probably wouldn't allow mundanes to provide counterspelling for anyone but themselves, though.

You could go for a quickened spell barrier tattoo or something.

That's another alternative, yeah. Though, I'm not sure how practical it would be, given that quickened tattoo magic is, more or less, a brute-force ward-smasher.

Yeah, but at least you don't have to worry about grounding any more

I think the point he is trying to get is a non-magical way for mundanes to resist magic besides the Magic Resistance quality. I think letting them learn counterspelling or your magic resistance knowledge skill would probably be a good idea. I think it would be cool if a mundane had one of those "It's all in my head. If I don't believe it will hurt me, it won't" mentalities and so he/she got a few extra dice. Psychosomatic magical defense or something. Had a traumatic experience with magic early in his/her life and so that caused an automatic defense to pop up, deadening magic or something. That sounds kinda neat.

I don't think the proposal of WhiskeyMac fits in too well with how magic works. Just because someone doesn't believe magic is going to hurt them doesn't mean anything. The mana is still going to be gathered by the magician at the same force and then transformed into energy(a spell) that will affect the target. In order for this to work the mundane would actually have to be able to affect the flow of mana or the energy being direced towards them. This requires abilities a mundane just does not have. Magic Resistance seems to be more like an innate ability certain people have and others don't. A fair example in my opinion would be in DnD where the Drow have spell resistance. I look at Magic Resistance sort of like the Spell/Spirit knack quality.

The description WhiskeyMac gave sounds like just another way to describe Magic Resistance from a Psionic's point of view. Really there is nothing stopping you right now from doing this with the Magic Resistance quality, just use Psionic flavoring.

Also note that Magic Resistance counts against the player as well. The Magic Resistance is roled even when the player is being healed or receiving beneficial magic. Also, it is impossible for the player to be the voluntary subject of any spell. So any spells requiring the player be a voluntary subject automatically fail.

Knowledge skills shouldn't be so involved with game mechanics - they're more for flavor. A knowledge skill that gives spell resistance seems like a cheap no brainer-must have for every character. If anything, it should be an active skill, though I think allowing mundanes to learn counterspelling is too good. Maybe a spell resistance active skill that doesn't work as well as counterspelling would be more appropriate.

Really, I'm fine with the rules as they are. Magic isn't any more deadly than a burst from an automatic weapon. I don't see a need to nerf it.

You could take it from another direction. There is a phenomina for psychics that I can't quite remember the name for but it is not only a resistance to psychic energies but they actively scramble it around them. They effectively create a background count around them all the time.
You could take it one of two directions: If the could control it at all - ie push it at someone it would be worth a good deal, or if it was not only strong but uncontrolable then it could even be a disadvantage. It could mess up your own group as well.

Damn! It's beginning to sound a lot like the Dreaded Negamage™.

BTW I also agree that you shouldn't have a knowledge skill that powerfull. Knowledge skills are just for knowledge. If you are actively doing something then it is more of an active skill.
I could see it only effecting mental spells and illusions and maybe stun spells, but nothing with physical trait to the spell. Only things that efect the mind.

Frankly I am shocked buy that magic resistance knowledge skill.

Under SR4 that skill would be more effective at defending against powerful spells than the same number of spell defence dice.

6 dice of spell defence knowledge target 4 average 3 successes = 1.5 on spell defence
6 dice of spell defence target spell force (6) average 1 successes

Personally I don’t have the problem that you need magic to defend against magic. And even if you do the magic resistance quality (described in myriad different ways) provides plenty. Unless you like the idea of being able to create mundanes that are better at resisting magic than any magician.

Edward

Maybe you could declare cold iron as magic resistant.
It's not like there is much around so most people wouldn't have noticed.

Option #3: By performing long meditation rituals, mundanes can "harden" their aura against magical energies. In effect, you are allowed to buy magic resistance according to standart rules. This is now a regular part of your game world, as execs will certainly do this.


Hmm, might even work. I´ll talk to my group.

Its nice to see magic is so feared, as it should be of coarse MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

I had a few comments, then realized this was an SR3 thread, despite being in the SR4 forum.

And the expansion is already available in canon. The Magic Resistance Quality explicitly cannot be taken by Awakened characters, and provides Mundanes with a perfectly viable, and even improvable option. I just don't see the need for anything more, and in my opinion, any more would start to tip the balance the other way.

As an aside, I don't actually mind your Nanites ... as long as [a] they don't stack with the Magic resistance Quality, and [b] they work in a similar fashion to that Quality in regards to beneficial Spells.

As was mentioned several times in other threads, force 10 combat spells are not that hard to do. And a mundane character won´t care if it was force 6 + 4 net successes (10 boxes of damage needing 10 hits to soak is what Kyoto likely wanted to say). The mage can do the later variant without risking need of edge, and the first with edge is a guranteed takedown.

Concerning the comparison to assault rifles with ExEx: Right on track. A good combat character will likely be standing after the fact if he was armed. Between dodgeing and armor, many dice can be brought against that threat. But not so against the spell.

Here's the themeatic write up for Depravity. Use and abuse at your own risk.


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Depravity - Nanotechnolgoy

Depravity is a form of Nano-based psyche therapy, developed to test the hypothesis of several leading individuals in the field of Hermetic based pyschology. Specifically studying the accumulation of Mana Background Counts, and the psychological effects or causes by Metahumans living in areas with significant backgrounds, these Hermetic scientists based 'Depravity' on what was used originally as an alternative to traditional medication for patients diagnosed with a chemical imbalance or defiency.

By altering the 'nanopsyche-stabilizer units' into 'destabilizer' units, these Hermetics were able to artificially create the negative requirements for Negative Mana-Background formations inside what would otherwise be normal, average metahumans.

While the obviously harmful effects of longterm exposure to this nanotechnology is obvious, the startling discovery that accompanied the synthesis of Depravity is that not only were individuals whose bloodstreams were chemicaly regulated with Depravity able to accelerate the creation of negative Background counts, but the aura of the individuals themselves began to create micro-sized background counts of their own.

Often times, subjects who willingly dose themselves with Depravity will use other drugs to compensate for psychological burden it creates. Not surprisingly, this can create the pitiful, downward spiral of addiction and destruction.

Game Effects: A character dosed with Depravity begins to effectively develop their own, personal background count effect, reducing the effectiveness of the manipulation of magic on their person. This background count accumulates at a rate of 1 point per hour, up to the effective potency of the nano-destabilizer, and lingers until the nano-therapy is removed from their system, decreasing their background count by 1 point per hour. The character adds a number of dice equal to the rating of Depravity to all spell resistance tests.

Additionally, Awakened characters who are dosed with Depravity suffer all effects associated with background counts equal to the rating induced into their aura.

Long term Exposure: Gamemaster's are encouraged to creatively create consequences for long term use of Depravity, and the obvious harm that it can inflict on a user/abuser's psycho-state.
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Notes: Depravity will be available in multiple ratings. Each rating is a more invasive form of the nano-therapy. The dice that Depravity provides augment all spell resistance rolls, to include automatic resistance to spells that may benefit the subject. Gamemasters are encouraged to create sideeffects appropriate to their campaign, such as penalties to social rolls.

Counterspelling Foci
Here's the thematic write up for Counterspelling Foci. Use/abuse are your own risk.

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While modern Hermetics argue if the voluntary exchange of energy between a free spirit, and a metahuman is a portion of their lifespan, their good fortune, and actually portions of their internal life energy, one thing is clear: There are quantifiable similiarities between this 'energy', and the 'energy' expended when an awakened individual bonds a foci to their person.

Noting that these exchanges between spirits and individuals was not limited exclusively to awakened characters, multiple teams of top-notch Hermetics began expanding on the parallel principles of foci and mundanes. With recent breakthroughts, the counterspelling Foci has been released.

While in many ways, a counterspelling Foci appears similiar to a spellcasting Foci, it is unique in that it does not actually require the active manipulation of mana, but rather, harnesses the portion of passive mana manipulation already intrinsic in mundanes: The resistance of magical manipulation.

Game Effects: Counterspelling Foci are unique in that they may be bonded by Mundanes as well as awakened characters. When active, they follow all rules of active foci. They provide a number of dice equal to their rating for all spell defense tests.
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Note: Foci Addiction/Karma Bonding Cost/Availability/Cost have not been factored yet.

...I stand corrected on the Ammo. Still running an SR3 campaign & easy to get things mixed up.

None of my SR4 characters has even bothered to think about APDS since it is next to impossible to get anyway so I never really looked it over.

As to the total power of incoming spells, both KK and Violet have been hit with 10DV spells, both stun & physical on several occasions. The NPC on each occasion was basically a 400BP character. Maybe the GM was just getting lucky rolls I guess.

However let's Hypothesize for a moment: Force 5 spell + spellcasting 5, + Mentor bonus + Rating 2 Focus (Power or Spellcasting), makes a DP of 14 learn spell on Fetish to assist in soaking up drain.

Doable as a 400BP character. If overcasting, the DP can exceed 15.

In most occasions even 3 successes will be sufficient to make whatever damage is tacked on reach the target. An average willpower of 3 against say manabolt 8 can easily do the trick. Sometimes it will not fail.

The main problem is that the target will either face no damage at all, or much damage. With mundane weapons, any result is possible. And there are no incentives for a mage to stay below the powerlevel he can cast without risk of drain. At the same time, the samurai will often bring a smaller gun.

Force 14 quickened custom personal Mana Static with 14 hits and an effective force of 42 for the purpose of dispelling. Only a grade 9 or better initiate will be able to even cast against you and a grade 9 character with the maximum possible magic attribute will be casting as if he had a magic attribute of 1. Bringing down the spell is out of the question.

Clensing and Filtering may help, but Filtering would require between 14 and 28 hits (depending on grade) to negate the background count and and Clensing would require 21 hits to totally remove the background count. Both take complex actions (Clensing would take 14 complex actions) and it would give the mundane time to act and forewarning to the danger.

The best part is that all you need is a grade 1 initiate contact with quickening and maxed out magic to cast the mana static spell.

I know you're not serious, but before you give Emo too many ideas: background count can't exceed 12; background count is necessarily an area phenomenon that can't be made personal; area effects can't be attached to persons.