I know that I'm the one that usually is writing about things that would make magic users more powerful so this may throw people for a loop.
I decided to limit the magic attribute to 9 just like all the other abilities. You can initiate up to grade 9 as well, but you have to reach a magic of 5 in order to take your first initiation.
Physads are not screwed by this because I decided to allow them to gain physad abilities as metamagic. I was thinking about limiting certain physad abilities to metamagic only.
That way there would be a basic and an advanced list.
Part of the reason for this was reading about the increadibly powerful spells that could be generated at force 12 and higher (the posting about the spirit of man). I decided I didn't want to deal with that anywhere in the future.
I was also thinking of limiting Foci that you can use to half your magic rating. Low level foci (1-3) would be fairly cheap and not require strange materials. Above that you get more expensive. The ones with the expensive materials would be able to break this limit but would max out at 8 with anything higher then that would just be plot.
Full Version: Limiting Spellcasters
I don’t think your going to achieve your desired result.
At magic 6 you can already cast force 12 spells (and my characters do, without worrying drain) in fact I wouldn’t want to get my magic above 8 because at that point I would loose the ability to magically heal my drain from force 9 spirits (the summoning of which became an every run occurrence).
A better method would be to make drain scary, for starters say that any damage afflicted buy drain can not be healed magically and is harder to treat with biotech, if that isn’t enough then increase the drain codes. This doesn’t make it harder to cast al powerful spells but it dose make the idea less attractive, even with magic 88 your still don’t have more than about 20 dice to resist the drain.
I think the limit on focus force is interesting. I think however it should come with a removal of the maximum number for foci bonded (change this number to in use), thus a magician could easily have a focus for everything, and spares in safe houses but could not have a single all powerful focus (remember no more than one focus can add to any single dice pool)
At magic 6 you can already cast force 12 spells (and my characters do, without worrying drain) in fact I wouldn’t want to get my magic above 8 because at that point I would loose the ability to magically heal my drain from force 9 spirits (the summoning of which became an every run occurrence).
A better method would be to make drain scary, for starters say that any damage afflicted buy drain can not be healed magically and is harder to treat with biotech, if that isn’t enough then increase the drain codes. This doesn’t make it harder to cast al powerful spells but it dose make the idea less attractive, even with magic 88 your still don’t have more than about 20 dice to resist the drain.
I think the limit on focus force is interesting. I think however it should come with a removal of the maximum number for foci bonded (change this number to in use), thus a magician could easily have a focus for everything, and spares in safe houses but could not have a single all powerful focus (remember no more than one focus can add to any single dice pool)
Wha about an unavoidable drain for overcasting. Say instead of resisting the physical overcasting drain you only convert it back to stun.
I like that idea about the foci. Maybe I'll use that.
I was thinking about what if the drain from spells was not force/2 but force if you go over your magic rating. The other thing I was thinking was limiting overcasting to Magic + 3.
I was also thinking of limiting conjuring so that you can't overcast for spirits. They just won't show up. (Actually I didn't know that you could - is this how they are doing it?)
The other thing that might work is you can't summon anything over a certain power level without an extended ritual. You can only quick summon smaller spirits.
I was thinking about what if the drain from spells was not force/2 but force if you go over your magic rating. The other thing I was thinking was limiting overcasting to Magic + 3.
I was also thinking of limiting conjuring so that you can't overcast for spirits. They just won't show up. (Actually I didn't know that you could - is this how they are doing it?)
The other thing that might work is you can't summon anything over a certain power level without an extended ritual. You can only quick summon smaller spirits.
I remember a suggestion of counting the full amount of overcasting at full force for drain rather than halving it. Might be a bit much, but helps.
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| in fact I wouldn’t want to get my magic above 8 because at that point I would loose the ability to magically heal my drain from force 9 spirits (the summoning of which became an every run occurrence). |
You can not magically heal damage done by drain.
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| Part of the reason for this was reading about the increadibly powerful spells that could be generated at force 12 and higher (the posting about the spirit of man). I decided I didn't want to deal with that anywhere in the future. |
High Force spells are mostly a problem when overcasting (sure, you can get your Magic that high, theoretically, but in practice it costs so much to get there, that it hardly is a problem).
In order to restrict high Force spells somewhat, I have made Drain a lot tougher, when overcasting.
1) You suffer Drain twice, once physical and once stun, at the same DV, and you get to resist both with your full dice, of course.
2) Drain DV for overcasting is higher. You do not halve the Force points that go beyond your Magic. For example (spellcaster with Magic 5), a Force 5 Mana Bolt has a normal DV of 2, a Force 6 Mana Bolt has a DV of 3, a Force 7 Mana Bolt has a DV of 4, a Force 8 Mana Bolt has a DV of 5, and so on.
While it's quite similar when overcasting just a little, Drain grows twice as fast from that point onwards and the Drain from high overcastings becomes quite serious.
While it is still possible to cast high Force spells this way (without dying), people will think twice before overcasting that far routinely.
Bye
Thanee
And to be fair: Getting a magic rating of 10, even starting at 6, is obscene.
Assuming you have a magical group, you pay for each initiation.
You need Grade 4.
1: 11
2: 13
3: 16
4: 18
So that's 58.
Then you buy magic.
7: 21
8: 24
9: 27
10: 30.
So that's 102.
That's a total of 160 Karma to get to magic 10. And that doesn't increase your spellcasting dice or drain resistance, so at magic 10, 160 karma later, you're still using, say, 11 dice to cast and 10 to resist.
Assuming you have a magical group, you pay for each initiation.
You need Grade 4.
1: 11
2: 13
3: 16
4: 18
So that's 58.
Then you buy magic.
7: 21
8: 24
9: 27
10: 30.
So that's 102.
That's a total of 160 Karma to get to magic 10. And that doesn't increase your spellcasting dice or drain resistance, so at magic 10, 160 karma later, you're still using, say, 11 dice to cast and 10 to resist.
Actually, it does increase spellcasting dice. 
It's pretty much the point of Magic to increase the dice pools for active magical tests.
Bye
Thanee
It's pretty much the point of Magic to increase the dice pools for active magical tests.
Bye
Thanee
It does increase by your magic - I was referring more towards your spellcasting pool, power foci, etc.
Actually, I think the best way to fix this problem is to not allow magicians to magically heal damage from drain.
This is a house rule that I have implemented in my own games and it seems to be very effective at controlling overcasting.
Also, you might want to take a good look at the number of karma your giving out in a night. A good evening should result in 4-5 karma. Thats not just team awards, but total for the player.
To get a magic of 9, you have to spend to get initiation and magic and assuming your character starts at a 6 for magic you spend 119 of karma...
Initiate 1 - 13
Initiate 2 - 16
Initiate 3 - 18
Magic 7 - 21
Magic 8 - 24
Magic 9 - 27
Even if your character is getting all 5 karma every night that is still 23 game sessions to raise your magic that high.
My group plays once a week... so thats 23 weeks to do it. And for 23 weeks of effort they can now cast force 9 spells without taking physical drain, but if they cast them at force 10 they still can get hurt and can't heal it.
This is a house rule that I have implemented in my own games and it seems to be very effective at controlling overcasting.
Also, you might want to take a good look at the number of karma your giving out in a night. A good evening should result in 4-5 karma. Thats not just team awards, but total for the player.
To get a magic of 9, you have to spend to get initiation and magic and assuming your character starts at a 6 for magic you spend 119 of karma...
Initiate 1 - 13
Initiate 2 - 16
Initiate 3 - 18
Magic 7 - 21
Magic 8 - 24
Magic 9 - 27
Even if your character is getting all 5 karma every night that is still 23 game sessions to raise your magic that high.
My group plays once a week... so thats 23 weeks to do it. And for 23 weeks of effort they can now cast force 9 spells without taking physical drain, but if they cast them at force 10 they still can get hurt and can't heal it.
Uhm...
You said, with Magic 10 you are still rolling 11 dice to cast... that's only with a Spellcasting skill of 1 (and no other bonuses).
Magic directly adds into spellcasting dice pools, because they calculate like Magic+Spellcasting(+other).
Bye
Thanee
You said, with Magic 10 you are still rolling 11 dice to cast... that's only with a Spellcasting skill of 1 (and no other bonuses).
Magic directly adds into spellcasting dice pools, because they calculate like Magic+Spellcasting(+other).
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (CradleWorm @ Oct 20 2006, 07:01 AM) |
| Actually, I think the best way to fix this problem is to not allow magicians to magically heal damage from drain. This is a house rule that I have implemented in my own games and it seems to be very effective at controlling overcasting. |
That is not a house rule. That is canon! It just hasn't been spelled out explicitly enough as of yet. That should change in either the forthcoming errata or the long-awaited FAQ.
Okay let me put it another way
It's not just that I'm limiting my PCs. I'm limiting magic in the my setting. No human spellcaster will be able to do more then a force 12 spell. Overcasting would be limited to magic +3. I'm thinking about getting rid of power foci.
I like to magic to be versitile and useful but I don't want the power level that high in the setting. Only Dragons would be able to go past that, and if you see one of those in one of my games then I have decided to kill your character off.
I can't see any character that would not be totally disruptive to my game, even as an NPC, that powerful. Therefore they don't exist. I think if a GM pulls out a character like that then the PCs are going to feel railroaded too much. They are going to be staring at the man behind the curtain too much wondering why he has lost his nut.
It's not just that I'm limiting my PCs. I'm limiting magic in the my setting. No human spellcaster will be able to do more then a force 12 spell. Overcasting would be limited to magic +3. I'm thinking about getting rid of power foci.
I like to magic to be versitile and useful but I don't want the power level that high in the setting. Only Dragons would be able to go past that, and if you see one of those in one of my games then I have decided to kill your character off.
I can't see any character that would not be totally disruptive to my game, even as an NPC, that powerful. Therefore they don't exist. I think if a GM pulls out a character like that then the PCs are going to feel railroaded too much. They are going to be staring at the man behind the curtain too much wondering why he has lost his nut.
i suppose you could do that. the main thing that needs doing though, imo, is to drop the power of magic when someone has at the upper end of chargen. i don't think people are worried about the power level of grade 12 initiates, because they are supposed to be insanely powerful. furthermore, by the time you've gotten even halfway there, the group has probably retired, or created houserules to allow nonmagical characters indefinite progression, since they've run out of useful stuff to spend karma on long ago.
the main thing i would say (and you've got a fairly good houserul there IMO) is to limit the upper end of chargen spellcasters/summoners. force 12. this means that a magic 6 character could, at most, summon force 9 spirits of man, which can cast force 12 spells at best... still scary, but not nearly as bad as the force 24 spells which were previously possible from force 12 spirits.
furthermore, this does a lot to make the lower magic ratings a bit more viable. thus, someone could take the quality that causes them to awaken later in life (or they could build someone who has only just recently become a magician, and has magic rating 1 or 2) and they will actually be able to be somewhat useful.
consider the overcasting = magic + 3 houserule yoinked for any game i GM =P
the main thing i would say (and you've got a fairly good houserul there IMO) is to limit the upper end of chargen spellcasters/summoners. force 12. this means that a magic 6 character could, at most, summon force 9 spirits of man, which can cast force 12 spells at best... still scary, but not nearly as bad as the force 24 spells which were previously possible from force 12 spirits.
furthermore, this does a lot to make the lower magic ratings a bit more viable. thus, someone could take the quality that causes them to awaken later in life (or they could build someone who has only just recently become a magician, and has magic rating 1 or 2) and they will actually be able to be somewhat useful.
consider the overcasting = magic + 3 houserule yoinked for any game i GM =P
Glad you like it.
I was also thinking about how to keep the spirits more reasonable. Maybe either do the same thing for spirits as for overcasting. The other thing was thinking was what if it took metamagic to overcast summoning at all.
On the other hand I don't want spirits to go pif too easily and I don't want to make them too powerful just to make them last longer. Maybe alter the immunity to normal weapons power but to what?
BTW I've got my rules so far on my website if your interested
I was also thinking about how to keep the spirits more reasonable. Maybe either do the same thing for spirits as for overcasting. The other thing was thinking was what if it took metamagic to overcast summoning at all.
On the other hand I don't want spirits to go pif too easily and I don't want to make them too powerful just to make them last longer. Maybe alter the immunity to normal weapons power but to what?
BTW I've got my rules so far on my website if your interested
The contacts alone are worth a visit, even if you like me don´t care that much for house rules. Thanks!
You could also go Old School, and simply remove the (F/2) section from drain code and make it F +/- modifier.
This makes spellcasting a BEAR, and it'll slow 'em way down.
"Manaball, Force 8! Hah!"
"Okaydokie. That's an Overcast, so, take a drain vs 8 Phsyical."
"... owie ..."
This makes spellcasting a BEAR, and it'll slow 'em way down.
"Manaball, Force 8! Hah!"
"Okaydokie. That's an Overcast, so, take a drain vs 8 Phsyical."
"... owie ..."
how far back does that go? iirc, it was F/2 in SR3 as well, was it not? (though of course, in SR3 the really nasty spells could deal deadly drain, even if the power of that deadly drain was low... )
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 21 2006, 09:42 AM) |
| how far back does that go? iirc, it was F/2 in SR3 as well, was it not? (though of course, in SR3 the really nasty spells could deal deadly drain, even if the power of that deadly drain was low... ) |
Even in SR3 it was an optional rule for GMs that desired Magic to be a bit harder to cast. As far as I know, it is still listed among the options in SR4.
Full force in drain calculation would be as crippling as it was back in the day. You´d just see ultra-drain-effective spells from that day on.
Um... Hey, what if we all house rule that damage from drain cannot be healed by magic.
Sorry Fortune, I couldn't help myself
Sorry Fortune, I couldn't help myself
's alright. 
| QUOTE (OneTrikPony) |
| Um... Hey, what if we all house rule that damage from drain cannot be healed by magic. |
I dislike this rule (always did), because it seems silly, that damage from Drain is in some way different than normal damage. That kinda defies the point of having it do damage in the first place. There are other ways to achieve a similar result.
So, I will always use the rule (or optional rule), that Drain can be healed normally.
Bye
Thanee
You need to keep in mind that Force: 12 spells are NOT that game-breaking. All that they are, really, are spells that have a decent chance of a one-shot takedown. And with counterspelling and Edge, even a Force: 12 spell won't automatically work. Plus, pity the spellcaster who gets a critical glitch.
In SR3, you could get the same effect with a Force: 6 manabolt cast at D damage - the difference being that you weren't taking physical damage from Drain, and with all of the options available to spellcasters (elemental aid, foci, totem or elemental mage bonuses), you could often take out a target and suffer NO Drain at all.
However, there is one thing that I agree with you on. I, too, dislike how there are hard caps for everything else, but not magic. Magic being able to eventually surpass everything else was a problem in previous editions, too, but limiting everything else exacerbates the problem. Yeah, it may take that mage 160 karma to improve his magic to 10, but at least he can DO that.
In SR3, you could get the same effect with a Force: 6 manabolt cast at D damage - the difference being that you weren't taking physical damage from Drain, and with all of the options available to spellcasters (elemental aid, foci, totem or elemental mage bonuses), you could often take out a target and suffer NO Drain at all.
However, there is one thing that I agree with you on. I, too, dislike how there are hard caps for everything else, but not magic. Magic being able to eventually surpass everything else was a problem in previous editions, too, but limiting everything else exacerbates the problem. Yeah, it may take that mage 160 karma to improve his magic to 10, but at least he can DO that.
I'm definately not trying to prevent them from being effective. I can see what you mean about the old force 6 and the deadly damage. What if I did both?
What if it was at your force + successes in damage AND the drain was also force? It would make more sense why you might lower your force to lower your drain. Then limit the successes at your force as well. That way you could do 12 damage with a force 6 spell which puts it back to the 3rd ed deadly damage.
That makes them dangerous but since they would cap out at force 9 in my game they could never get to the destroy the whole building level.
Part of the reason I'm focused so much in limiting them is that part of my plot has to do with the cycle of magic. I'm actually leading up to running them in a reworked version of Harlequin's back in which they will go to places where the cap for magic is higher then 9.
(Oh BTW I'm glad you liked my contacts! I think that they are a lot of fun!)
What if it was at your force + successes in damage AND the drain was also force? It would make more sense why you might lower your force to lower your drain. Then limit the successes at your force as well. That way you could do 12 damage with a force 6 spell which puts it back to the 3rd ed deadly damage.
That makes them dangerous but since they would cap out at force 9 in my game they could never get to the destroy the whole building level.
Part of the reason I'm focused so much in limiting them is that part of my plot has to do with the cycle of magic. I'm actually leading up to running them in a reworked version of Harlequin's back in which they will go to places where the cap for magic is higher then 9.
(Oh BTW I'm glad you liked my contacts! I think that they are a lot of fun!)
Yeah, you can potentially do 12 damage with a Force: 6 spell (which is not a change - it's how the rules work NOW), except that for that to happen:
1) You need to get 6 successes (if you happen to luck out and get more, they don't count, since successes are limited to the Force of the spell - but actually, 6 successes would be a pretty good roll even for a pimped-out mage).
2) The target now has a chance to resist the spell, and every success he gets reduces the potential damage. So to take 12 damage, the target must roll no successes at all.
Both are possible, but to even semi-reliably take out a target in one shot, you need to overcast the spell. Considering that you take physical damage from doing so, and are pretty unlikely to soak all of it, it's a drastic tactic that probably won't be used that often. In most cases, you are better off spending Edge instead.
And yes, you can magically heal physical Drain, but you probably won't get a chance to do so until you get out of combat, and there's no guarantee that you'll heal all of it. And the FAQ or erratta might change that - you couldn't heal Drain in previous editions of SR.
As far as changing Drain, I'm against it. It would either make mages cast spells at ineffective levels, or only cast an effective spell in an emergency. Plus, security mages would benefit - they could cast their one effective spell and fall back, unlike the PC mage who has to slog through the whole run, and can't afford to be groggy in the middle of it. This would also affect normal spellcasting more than it would affect overcasting.
The magic cap, I wouldn't mind as much. A Magic of 9 and 3 metamagical techniques are pretty decent, and if the sammie can't get his skill past a base skill of 7, ever, then why shouldn't mages hit a wall at some point, too?
1) You need to get 6 successes (if you happen to luck out and get more, they don't count, since successes are limited to the Force of the spell - but actually, 6 successes would be a pretty good roll even for a pimped-out mage).
2) The target now has a chance to resist the spell, and every success he gets reduces the potential damage. So to take 12 damage, the target must roll no successes at all.
Both are possible, but to even semi-reliably take out a target in one shot, you need to overcast the spell. Considering that you take physical damage from doing so, and are pretty unlikely to soak all of it, it's a drastic tactic that probably won't be used that often. In most cases, you are better off spending Edge instead.
And yes, you can magically heal physical Drain, but you probably won't get a chance to do so until you get out of combat, and there's no guarantee that you'll heal all of it. And the FAQ or erratta might change that - you couldn't heal Drain in previous editions of SR.
As far as changing Drain, I'm against it. It would either make mages cast spells at ineffective levels, or only cast an effective spell in an emergency. Plus, security mages would benefit - they could cast their one effective spell and fall back, unlike the PC mage who has to slog through the whole run, and can't afford to be groggy in the middle of it. This would also affect normal spellcasting more than it would affect overcasting.
The magic cap, I wouldn't mind as much. A Magic of 9 and 3 metamagical techniques are pretty decent, and if the sammie can't get his skill past a base skill of 7, ever, then why shouldn't mages hit a wall at some point, too?
| QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 21 2006, 12:06 AM) | ||
I dislike this rule (always did), because it seems silly, that damage from Drain is in some way different than normal damage. That kinda defies the point of having it do damage in the first place. There are other ways to achieve a similar result. So, I will always use the rule (or optional rule), that Drain can be healed normally. Bye Thanee |
Drain is just stun damage in SR3 and there is no way to heal stun damage at all outside of rest. The best you could do was put on a slap patch and have temporary relief. Drain damage is no different then any other stun damage.
What I do find interesting about SR4 is that in SR3 they say no medical or magical means is known to man to heal stun damage and your biotech/first aid skill can only heal physical damage. In SR4 your first aid skill can be used to heal both. So maybe they have decided to allow magical stun healing. I cant find a nah answer to "Can you magically heal stun damage?" So far there is no answer at all. At least none that I can find.
| QUOTE (Frag-o Delux) |
| What I do find interesting about SR4 is that in SR3 they say no medical or magical means is known to man to heal stun damage and your biotech/first aid skill can only heal physical damage. In SR4 your first aid skill can be used to heal both. So maybe they have decided to allow magical stun healing. I cant find a nah answer to "Can you magically heal stun damage?" So far there is no answer at all. At least none that I can find. |
well, let's try this method:
tell me what spell you're using to heal stun damage. cause if it's heal, then you'd better look a little closer.
(iow, the answer is "no, you cannot magically heal stun damage, because healing spells don't heal stun damage")
| QUOTE (Jaid) | ||
well, let's try this method: tell me what spell you're using to heal stun damage. cause if it's heal, then you'd better look a little closer. (iow, the answer is "no, you cannot magically heal stun damage, because healing spells don't heal stun damage") |
Did I say use the Heal spell? There are spell design rules arent there? Dont you think if I can find the minute difference between 2 different editions of the game system such as first aid not healing stun in third edition and first aid healing stun in fourth I can read well enough to know the spell Heal cant heal stun damage?
In SR4 you could creat a spell that simulates first aid, however they describe it best, like the introduction of stim patchs like in third edition.
In third I would let you make a Stimulate spell of sorts that mimic Stim patches just the same. For it to work you would need to sustain it taking a +2 to target numbers for sustaining the spell. Or a sustaining focus to hold it, leading to other problems like focus addiction and being an astral beacon, not to mention the karma drain of learning that spell and the sustaining focus. It wouldnt have to even be a spell that creats anything, it could just be a spell that controls the thoughts of the person. Ever seen a beaten tired person suddenly find the strength needed to carry on because someone inspired them? Same could be achieved through magic, like control thoughts.
Besides the person would have to design and make the spell then spend points on learning it.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| You need to keep in mind that Force: 12 spells are NOT that game-breaking. All that they are, really, are spells that have a decent chance of a one-shot takedown. And with counterspelling and Edge, even a Force: 12 spell won't automatically work. Plus, pity the spellcaster who gets a critical glitch. In SR3, you could get the same effect with a Force: 6 manabolt cast at D damage - the difference being that you weren't taking physical damage from Drain, and with all of the options available to spellcasters (elemental aid, foci, totem or elemental mage bonuses), you could often take out a target and suffer NO Drain at all. However, there is one thing that I agree with you on. I, too, dislike how there are hard caps for everything else, but not magic. Magic being able to eventually surpass everything else was a problem in previous editions, too, but limiting everything else exacerbates the problem. Yeah, it may take that mage 160 karma to improve his magic to 10, but at least he can DO that. |
Something to consider when you take in the 'limitless' potential of magic is the rarity of such beings. The common source of high magical potential is, you probably guessed it, dragons. Just because it's a popular thing to worry about a dragon stomping on your coffin bed and all that.
The 2nd most common worry is in spirits. They might not always be magician types (unless you like spirits of men), but being they're pretty much made out of the very magic that is limitless, they are high up on the magical food chain as well.
So why is this a good thing when it comes to a shadowrunner that gets up really high in the magical ratings?
3 words: Power attracts Power.
When something hits the fan, who are they going to look for? The low level street mage investigating missing kids (who were being eaten by ghouls by the way) or the world famous Swami that gives monthly therapy to the dragons that think they're gonna be the next dragon-pulled-into-a-rift? Nothing puts your life at risk more than people thinking 'they're tough - so let's get THEM to deal with the creepy drek!'
And being as hard as it is to hide magic at times (even with masking and the like) You might consider giving the mage types an extra fame/notoriety in the magical circles based off their magic - It's harder to hide yourself in the magical community without totally isolating yourself, after all. Talismongers are going to wonder why a seemingly simplewage mage or coyote pretty is buying their rarest goods with those ebony cred sticks.
Let's not forget that there are free spirits too - they might take your growth in power as a challenge to their domains if you live too close to them! Or the vampires, or the dragons, or the small cult of wage mages who need themselves a new, strings attached figurehead.
There's more to power than dice and big booms: high magic kinda makes you the magical equivalent of a troll - you need bigger things and people tend to take it badly that you're 'bigger'. >.<
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