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ChicagosFinest
Anyone have a clue as to what happned to Colonel Keiji Saito and his protectorate? It doesnt say anything about him in SF (System Failure) and when you look at the history lesson in SR4 it says him and the protectorate are gone. Its kind of an anti-climactic way to end someone who was featured in Threats 2 afterall Dankwalther got hit by a Thor Shot.
FrankTrollman
The thing was that Saito was always an anti-climax. He was just a fascist. Whoopdy-doo. He was also in control of part of a country that we've been assured by the rst of the setting has a failed economy that has fallen out of favor with the rest of the world and no longer matters internationally.

So he was sitting on less than 20 million people in a backwater, and intended to murder a bunch of them as part of a bid to maintain his ironfisted control. Does that sound like Nepal to you? Is Nepal a threat to the world order? If the brutal monarch of Nepal was overthrown tomorrow, would you even care? What about Myanmar? Do you give a flying fuck one way or the other?

The fact is that by Shadowrun villainy standards, Saito was always small fry. He never deserved a chapter in Threats 2. He was just an asshole. Shadowrun has lots of assholes.

The government of Myanmar is oppressing twice as many people as Saito was right now and killing more people in manners which are more barbaric. Do they get into Threats 2? Hellz no!

Yeah, you got to the end of the Saito chapter in Threats 2 and you said "That's it? He's just a big meany-face? He's not trying to turn off the sun or rain nuclear fire on the Yucatan? So fucking what?" Saito ended like he began - a "who cares?" in the annals of shadowrun history.

-Frank
fistandantilus4.0
I've actually knid of liked that some things can end anit-climatically in SR. Varies thigns up a lot. Besides, if your GM ran the game where your PC's were the ones that took him out, it wouldn't be anti-climatic to you. Hell, in our game, he was rumored to have commited sepaku when rebel groups started organizing and fighting back. But what really happened, and is rumored in the shadows, was that he was assassinated, and no one knows whodunnit. There are things that people shouldn't know IMO, keeps the mystery. I'm sure they'll give some sort of info on the resolution eventually. But hell, jsut make it up if you want, and work it in to your own game.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
There are things that people shouldn't know IMO, keeps the mystery. I'm sure they'll give some sort of info on the resolution eventually.


If it ever gets mentioned again, I'd prefer just a few shadowtalk rumors. I like leaving some things with fuzzy resolutions, for the same reason you mentioned. Unless San Francisco gets some major detail in the future, I don't see much reason for us to definitively answer that plot, since it's not going to be used for a plot product release.
fool
QUOTE
Does that sound like Nepal to you? Is Nepal a threat to the world order? If the brutal monarch of Nepal was overthrown tomorrow, would you even care?

Uh dude, the ironfisted monarch of nepal got "overthrown" about 4-5 months ago through nonviolent protests.
Fortune
QUOTE (fool)
QUOTE
Does that sound like Nepal to you? Is Nepal a threat to the world order? If the brutal monarch of Nepal was overthrown tomorrow, would you even care?

Uh dude, the ironfisted monarch of nepal got "overthrown" about 4-5 months ago through nonviolent protests.

Did many people outside of Nepal care?
fistandantilus4.0
well, I did.
Fortune
A whole lot?
fistandantilus4.0
.... a bit .... I read about it! ....Twice!
FrankTrollman
If the revolution to remove the king from power (which, btw, is still going on right now, 12 hours ago the King missed a deadline to explain the massacre of a non-violent pro-democracy rally to parliament and they are taking it as an excuse to ramp-up legal proceedings against him) had gotten an entire chapter of Threats 2, would you have been perplexed?

-Frank
fistandantilus4.0
I think it was included because he went rogue from the Japanese military after the rest of them went home, and they had to update the situation. Otherwise you would have heard more about the issues with the monarchy in Spain as well. It probably could have been in one of the SOTA books , but needed a bit more space.
Grinder
QUOTE (Fortune)
A whole lot?

Yep.
Fortune
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 19 2006, 11:35 PM)
A whole lot?

Yep.

Fair enough. smile.gif

Without making this a political debate, does it make your list of the top eight most important and/or dangerous threats in existance over the last 5 years?

Keeping things equated to Shadowrun, were looking at a book (or more properly, electronic document archive) concerning eight (I think, but maybe ten) of the biggest threats to humanity, at least from a slightly UCAS-biased point-of-view. Do you really think that something on the scale of the Nepal affair would rate an equal mention in such an account?
Grinder
To me, Colonel Saito was just one of the many facist, racist dictators of the 6th World. He had a "interesting" backstory and the fact that he grabbed a beautiful city like San Francisco got him a lot of attention.
I'm sure a whole sourcebook could be written about facist regimes of the 6th World, but would it be that interesting in the long run? Saito was one example of it and thus fit good into Threats. That's it.
Grinder
QUOTE (Fortune)
Without making this a political debate, does it make your list of the top eight most important and/or dangerous threats in existance over the last 5 years?

Keeping things equated to Shadowrun, were looking at a book (or more properly, electronic document archive) concerning eight (I think, but maybe ten) of the biggest threats to humanity, at least from a slightly UCAS-biased point-of-view. Do you really think that something on the scale of the Nepal affair would rate an equal mention in such an account?

You're right about this, but maybe the fact that it happened in Gods Own Country made it more disturbing for the (mainly) UCAS-based posters at Shadowland? wink.gif
FrankTrollman
Personally I would love to see a sourcebook "Under the Boot" about regions of the 6th world under fascist rule. The real, humanizing element of the fact that the horror is all done by self-interested humans who believe that they are behaving rationally would really perspectivize it all and put it into the ballpark where shadowrunners could be major players.

But I think it's dishonest to portray any of these areas as a major threat to the world.

-Frank
Grinder
Good point - and I would love to see a book aobut a new dictatorship in ADL, but taht's a different topic.

But as I said above, the UCAS-based posters may have seen Saito as a threat to the world. It happened in the home of the old USA and given the self-centric world view of some people...

Fortune
That's a fair point as well.
Grinder
Thank you smile.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Grinder)
But as I said above, the UCAS-based posters may have seen Saito as a threat to the world. It happened in the home of the old USA and given the self-centric world view of some people...

Nah, Satio was a threat to Japan. I assumed the IJA GS 2nd Bureau finally waxed his ass to deter others.
Grinder
He was a shame for Imperial Japan and its army, but not a threat.
kzt
QUOTE (Grinder)
He was a shame for Imperial Japan and its army, but not a threat.

He was an example that you could get away with mutiny.
BishopMcQ
Which if it's the right people, can be a threat...
Lagomorph
QUOTE (McQuillan)
Which if it's the right people, can be a threat...

Janitors of Zurich Orbital! Rise up against your oppresors!
Draconis
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Personally I would love to see a sourcebook "Under the Boot" about regions of the 6th world under fascist rule. The real, humanizing element of the fact that the horror is all done by self-interested humans who believe that they are behaving rationally would really perspectivize it all and put it into the ballpark where shadowrunners could be major players.

But I think it's dishonest to portray any of these areas as a major threat to the world.

-Frank

Bah, not an entire book. Just a large section in say a new Fields of Fire. We could always use another merc book. Then there can be fun discussions about selling nuclear weapons on Vbay to african countries, right Frank? wink.gif
Fortune
I wouldn't mind a new Merc book one bit.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Draconis)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 19 2006, 10:37 PM)
Personally I would love to see a sourcebook "Under the Boot" about regions of the 6th world under fascist rule. The real, humanizing element of the fact that the horror is all done by self-interested humans who believe that they are behaving rationally would really perspectivize it all and put it into the ballpark where shadowrunners could be major players.

But I think it's dishonest to portray any of these areas as a major threat to the world.

-Frank

Bah, not an entire book. Just a large section in say a new Fields of Fire. We could always use another merc book. Then there can be fun discussions about selling nuclear weapons on Vbay to african countries, right Frank? wink.gif

That sounds pretty plausible. Call it something like The Barrel of a Gun and have it center around military activities for shadowrunners. Block it out like:

Under the Boot: Military Regimes
Here you talk about a few select fascist nations in each part of the globe. Throw in some that just never got the print hey deserve like Burma and some that got the sourcebook eye long enough ago that people want more like Aztlan. Voice it as a series of essays from different parts of the world.

Economics By Other Means: Corporate Militaries
Here you throw down the description of what exactly the military of Ares and S&K are actually capable of. And you also go into detail on what more freeform military organizations like the Minute Men need mercenaries for. Probably put this into the voice of a merc contractor who vascilates sides in the Cola Wars with the current pricing schedule.

What Nature Abhors: Power for the Taking
Here you talk about some places where there is no recognized legitimate authority and put in a word on the economics of hiring mercenaries for short term contracts to establish one's self as that authority. Put it in the voice of a UN functionary discussing the difficulty of finding a government to recognize in a couple of key locations (I'm thinking Congo, Serbia, and Banda Ache). Then you mark it up with jackpoint talk about the mercenary work the potential government factions are throwing around.

The Dragon on its Stomach: Supplying the Combat Soldier
A section on the logistical end of the mercenary company. Everyone wants to be Picador, why not have a section about what that actually means. Talk about the kinds of money you have to throw around to move military units around, talk about the benefits and risks of standardization. Do a bit of a comparison between Fixing and commanding a Merc outfit, and of course talk about the costs involved in scaling things up from the scale of "several shadowrunners sneaking across the border" to "an armed military unit moving across the DMZ.

The Army That You Have: Military Equipment
What's a book without crunch? The final chapter is simply gear that was "too military" for inclusion in Arsenal. 4th edition stats for Stonewalls and Nightwraiths, some new guns (including archaics like the AK that still litter the battlefields of places that aren't good places to be), and the ubiquitous MRE. Mmmm... 5000 Calories a day.

So it looks like each chapter ould average about 3 subsections (the last one would be an in-character tirade about military equipment, a section on military vehicles, and a section on personal gear, for example). At ~11 pages a subsection (some would be longer, others shorter), you're looking at a document that is approximately 150 pages long. For perspective, that's about 25 pages shorter than Street Magic and the same length as Loose Alliances.

It would be a source book, so it would be in paperback format and probably retail for $25-$30.

And I wouldn't be writing more than a chapter, so it would be out in what, 2009? nyahnyah.gif

Is there interest in that?

-Frank
Slithery D
We wouldn't need an update on Aztlan, because by the time this book came out we'd get SoLA...
Draconis
An update on current merc organizations would be nice. Also such a book would make the parachuting skill much more useful.
And didn't I mention I want to write a section? biggrin.gif

Heh 2009 funny, won't you be busy with medical school and I with grad school by then?
Demonseed Elite
You don't need to be a world-threatening power to be included in a Threats book. That was certainly never a requirement voiced to the freelancers when they were being written. There's a tendency towards those in the books, but that's mostly because they are fun to write.

Saito's not unique in being fascist, but his sudden appearance and proximity to Seattle (which at the time was still the default setting of Shadowrun) is what led to him being included. His existence was intended to spawn a number of runs in the area, working both for and against him and that was enough reason to include him in a book which was designed to produce ideas for runs and campaigns.
Draconis
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
You don't need to be a world-threatening power to be included in a Threats book. That was certainly never a requirement voiced to the freelancers when they were being written. There's a tendency towards those in the books, but that's mostly because they are fun to write.

Saito's not unique in being fascist, but his sudden appearance and proximity to Seattle (which at the time was still the default setting of Shadowrun) is what led to him being included. His existence was intended to spawn a number of runs in the area, working both for and against him and that was enough reason to include him in a book which was designed to produce ideas for runs and campaigns.

Hmm i'm with Demonseed Elite on this one. I mean as implausible as Saito taking over SF was it did provide some interesting runs. I mean c'mon Frank remember the time I infiltrated that Yak brothel and that time we got one of the Jap ships to fire cruise missles at the Tir border crossing stations?
Grinder
The difference between in-game and out-game logic. biggrin.gif
SL James
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Is there interest in that?

Does Mike Mulvihill's interest in a military book back in 1999 count?
ChicagosFinest
Well whats anti climactic about it is that he was given so much attention and he didn't even get a small adventure book like Brainscan or BBB that would tie up loose ends. It would have been nice to end it that way so I could plan to move on without critically changing the game world in some big way (I try my hardest to stick to the cannon and be as real as can be). Some threats (like Alberstein and his babies) I still keep around as Azzie lackeys and it makes things interesting that way knowing I can run my team into a big baddie and they can live to tell about it in one of the online posts on the nexus.

Just when things were getting good in my Saito campaign it ends. My runners where going to help the "Neo Black Panthers" and other groups that would march on Saito once part of the Japanese military (aided by various megas) stormed San Fran. It would have been nice if the emperor himself (who seems pretty cool) got Lung to eat him or something.

I guess I'll have to take my game back to Chi-town, Seattle or Denver, but I do agree he wasn't worth the hype if he was going to die anti climactically by a hit squad, taking his own life, or a truly gruesome end by the emperor or and great dragon. Did they run out of material cuz they could have filled it with something about toxic dragons or something else like that.I love the threats line I'm hoping they come out with another.

As Far as the book book about merc units and dictators that would be cool to but throw in some notable War and Drug Lords and that would be money (non Dragon of course dragons are the shit but they got to much of everything sometimes) others who run shit behind the scenes. It would suck if the megas just kept all the money and some sleazy columbian drug lord could bitch slap a corp or two (almost like a continueation of loose aliances). Also the caribbean league has to have a few people who cause trouble. WHO can argue against new weapons to? It's been a while since street samurai it would be cool to have that end the book.
Demonseed Elite
Not every plot hook or Threat gets wrapped up in a big adventure book. In fact, most have not been. If you want Saito to be eaten by a dragon or beaten down by the Japanese Imperial Marines, go nuts with it. I don't think you will damage canon very much in doing so.
Synner
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 19 2006, 09:19 PM)
Is there interest in that?

Does Mike Mulvihill's interest in a military book back in 1999 count?

We're looking into the possibilty of something of this sort sometime down the line and that's all I can say.
fool
I don't think you can write off northern caligornia as a pissant backwater irrelevant to the rest of the world, in sr3 at least it was a major hub of developing all things matrix related, and a major breadmasket to the world. Having said that, would you car if hitler invaded germany? A madman ramping up his military machine and putting people into death camps is a threat to his neighbors and if he takes his neighbors territory, he has a larger base from which to attack.
The fact that he was getting away with mutiny made him a threat to the new emperor of Japan, and don't forget that he had significant suport from the japanacorps.
Finally, he was the public face for human nation which has been a theme in sr since at least 2nd edition.
SL James
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (SL James @ Oct 20 2006, 01:22 PM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 19 2006, 09:19 PM)
Is there interest in that?

Does Mike Mulvihill's interest in a military book back in 1999 count?

We're looking into the possibilty of something of this sort sometime down the line and that's all I can say.

Super.

It's a shame the guys I knew who were trying to submit a proposal don't even play SR anymore.
Steak and Spirits
QUOTE (Frank)
Is there interest in that?


Definitely.
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