It's the same argument people have when looking at the amateur (1 rank) vs professional (4) rank - the professional is only hitting 1 more success, on average.
It's just being couched in terms of healing, and muddied by the auto-6 skill of a medkit.
Full Version: First Aid
Fortune is at this point making the broader argument, posited elsewhere, that in the SR4 system, adding 3-4 dice doesn't make you noticably better.
It's the same argument people have when looking at the amateur (1 rank) vs professional (4) rank - the professional is only hitting 1 more success, on average.
It's just being couched in terms of healing, and muddied by the auto-6 skill of a medkit.
It's the same argument people have when looking at the amateur (1 rank) vs professional (4) rank - the professional is only hitting 1 more success, on average.
It's just being couched in terms of healing, and muddied by the auto-6 skill of a medkit.
Yes, and the broader argument is countered like this:
In Shadowrun 4, there comes a point at which your chances of success at tasks which incur no penalties are very high. Adding more dice from that point offers a genuine, but usually not noticeable increase in the chance of success. We'll call this point "adequacy"
But penalties reduce your dice pool. Which means that the point of adequacy is pushed back. In short, being somewhat skilled at a task and very skilled at a task makes little difference if the task is easy - both characters succeed. However, when the task is hard, the somewhat skilled person probably fails, while the very skilled person probably succeeds.
In specific, let's consider the stabilization of a dying character. We get some guy out of an EMT program (first aid 1) to look at a man hooked up to an autodoc in a hospital who is currently bleeding out (maybe he was shot "Hard Boiled" style during a firefight in the hospital). This is an easy task. The Autodoc is there, our hero has no penalties to speak of, he's just looking for 2 hits on a Logic + First Aid + Autodoc test. Simple. He probably averages like 3 or 4. If we put Dr. Awesome in the same position it's not even a deal because stabilization has already occurred.
But let's mix it up, shall we? Instead of the guy being in a hospital hooked up to an autodoc, let's have a guy dying in the middle of a windswept tundra, far from electronics of any sort. Our heroes now have to stabilize this guy with no medical supplies (-3) in poor conditions (-2). Our first character is looking down the barrel of a five die penalty when his dicepool is 5 dice! Ouch, he needs to spend an Edge to even get a chance (and then he gets one chance). Dr. Awesome, on the other hand, started with 12 dice, so when he's at a -5 penalty he still is most likely to succeed (and he can reroll his failures ith an Edge if he doesn't, making his chance of success very high).
That's the difference between a skilled character and a highly skilled character in Shadowrun. Not how well they perform when conditions are good, but how well they perform when conditions are bad.
-Frank
In Shadowrun 4, there comes a point at which your chances of success at tasks which incur no penalties are very high. Adding more dice from that point offers a genuine, but usually not noticeable increase in the chance of success. We'll call this point "adequacy"
But penalties reduce your dice pool. Which means that the point of adequacy is pushed back. In short, being somewhat skilled at a task and very skilled at a task makes little difference if the task is easy - both characters succeed. However, when the task is hard, the somewhat skilled person probably fails, while the very skilled person probably succeeds.
In specific, let's consider the stabilization of a dying character. We get some guy out of an EMT program (first aid 1) to look at a man hooked up to an autodoc in a hospital who is currently bleeding out (maybe he was shot "Hard Boiled" style during a firefight in the hospital). This is an easy task. The Autodoc is there, our hero has no penalties to speak of, he's just looking for 2 hits on a Logic + First Aid + Autodoc test. Simple. He probably averages like 3 or 4. If we put Dr. Awesome in the same position it's not even a deal because stabilization has already occurred.
But let's mix it up, shall we? Instead of the guy being in a hospital hooked up to an autodoc, let's have a guy dying in the middle of a windswept tundra, far from electronics of any sort. Our heroes now have to stabilize this guy with no medical supplies (-3) in poor conditions (-2). Our first character is looking down the barrel of a five die penalty when his dicepool is 5 dice! Ouch, he needs to spend an Edge to even get a chance (and then he gets one chance). Dr. Awesome, on the other hand, started with 12 dice, so when he's at a -5 penalty he still is most likely to succeed (and he can reroll his failures ith an Edge if he doesn't, making his chance of success very high).
That's the difference between a skilled character and a highly skilled character in Shadowrun. Not how well they perform when conditions are good, but how well they perform when conditions are bad.
-Frank
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| The small increase in dice is not really a big enough reason when you don't even have the possibility of healing even one extra box of damage. |
how not? you're arguing as if healing the maximum amount of damage is a common occurrence--which it very much isn't, given the 1/3 chance of success on each die. even with Edge, you're not likely to max out your successes on 6 dice. and, like FrankTrollman said, you're not always going to have your full dice pool anyway--especially if you're a runner patching up a buddy on the streets. you don't need to travel to a windswept tundra to get -5 dice; a rainy corner in the barrens will do just fine.
...So, using the houserule, My hacker Violet with a logic of 7 a MedKIt 6 and who just raised her First Aid to 2 (with piercing wounds as a specialisation) would get a total pool of 12 (14 for bullet , arrow, knife wounds) before applying modifiers.
Not bad for for a girl geek.
Not bad for for a girl geek.
Nobody ever said there weren't last effects from field healing. I liked the example of the builder and the hammer personally, albeit its more like a hammer + book + someone to explain it to you. Chances are the workmanship will still be below par. The amount of healing done at the time isn't necessarily a problem given the high mortality rate of runners, they need ever edge they can get. If you're concerned over the First Aid 6 + Logic 6 guy patching up a bullet wound with nothing but a bottle of rum, some paper towel, and a needle (very possible btw) but its not going to heal quite right, and you could leave a "last effect" of the injury so to speak, say if they got shot in the arm a residual -1 to anything requiring the use of it, maybe from pain and stiffness, whatever, you get the idea.
Field patchwork is going to be subpar and is only meant to stop it from getting worse, not heal it entirely.
Field patchwork is going to be subpar and is only meant to stop it from getting worse, not heal it entirely.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you're arguing as if healing the maximum amount of damage is a common occurrence--which it very much isn't, given the 1/3 chance of success on each die. even with Edge, you're not likely to max out your successes on 6 dice. and, like FrankTrollman said, you're not always going to have your full dice pool anyway--especially if you're a runner patching up a buddy on the streets. you don't need to travel to a windswept tundra to get -5 dice; a rainy corner in the barrens will do just fine. |
Whether I will reach the amount of successes needed is not really my point. I understand that there are Dice Pool penalties, and that the odds of reaching 9 or more successes are not great. I just think there should be the possibility (which is what I have said all along) of doing even a better job at the high end when combining First Aid with the appropriate tools than if using each one individually.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I just think there should be the possibility (which is what I have said all along) of doing even a better job at the high end when combining First Aid with the appropriate tools than if using each one individually. |
which is what i don't understand. it's not realistic (even more unrealistic than the existing first aid mechanic), and it's potentially unbalancing (since as one gains higher-rated equipment and skill, it becomes possible to completely heal a "dead" character). as it stands, the ability to heal up to six boxes is, even as an outlier, fairly ridiculous. healing six boxes means making an assault rifle bullet wound disappear completely. with the concept you're proposing would allow wounds from sniper rifles and heavy weapons to perfrom similarly silly acts of inexplicable magic. it'd make first aid perform on a level similar to magical healing. i can't see an upside to that.
Healing 6 boxes could make a minor assault rifle bullet wound disappear completely. A good shot (hey look ... skill level improves the performance of the rifle with no upper limit based on skill level!) would do more damage, and so would not quite disappear. Of course, as you keep pointing out, wounds and damage boxes are abstract things in Shadowrun.
I am not arguing that the whole rating of the Medkit should be added. I just think 1 extra box of potential healing due to the synergy (ick!) of using the skill and tool together, is not terribly unbalancing (considering it'd almost never occur anyway). I understand that it isn't canon (and have never claimed it was), but I disagree with your assessment about it being unrealistic.
I am not arguing that the whole rating of the Medkit should be added. I just think 1 extra box of potential healing due to the synergy (ick!) of using the skill and tool together, is not terribly unbalancing (considering it'd almost never occur anyway). I understand that it isn't canon (and have never claimed it was), but I disagree with your assessment about it being unrealistic.
If you want the 'possibility' of doing a better job but keep medkits from being an 'health potion'.
Leave the skill rating cap.... so 6 boxes is the most you are going to heal without somehow having a first aid skill over 6.
HOWEVER: allow extra success to be used to reduce the interval. Instead of 'healing' a person a net sucess can be spent on reducing the time required to heal a person.
So Lucky Jane First Aid -1, Logic - 6 and a medikit Rolls and somehow gets atleast 8 successes. 6 combat turns after she hocked the medkit up, the Dan gets healed for 6 boxes of damage.
Now Pepe The paramedic: First Aid (combat wounds) - 6, Logic 6 Rolls 20 dice (6 medikit, 8 skill, 6 logic). He will 'average' 7 hits or 5 boxes healed, almost as good as a 'perfect' roll from Lucky Jane. However if spending edge and or rolls 'good' Pepe can get considerably more then 8 success. If Pepe gets more then 8 sucess he can reduce the time he needs to patch Dan up. If he gets 14+ sucesses Pepe can patch 6 boxes of Dan up in one combat turn.
While admitedly a 'house' rule. It has been a long tradition and other rules still allow extra sucess to buy down the 'time' so this is a logical extension and means while there is a hard 'limit' to how much first aid can help you. Larger dice pools do have a decisive advantage even if somehow pushed to the points that getting 8+ hits is common/likely.
Peace
Leave the skill rating cap.... so 6 boxes is the most you are going to heal without somehow having a first aid skill over 6.
HOWEVER: allow extra success to be used to reduce the interval. Instead of 'healing' a person a net sucess can be spent on reducing the time required to heal a person.
So Lucky Jane First Aid -1, Logic - 6 and a medikit Rolls and somehow gets atleast 8 successes. 6 combat turns after she hocked the medkit up, the Dan gets healed for 6 boxes of damage.
Now Pepe The paramedic: First Aid (combat wounds) - 6, Logic 6 Rolls 20 dice (6 medikit, 8 skill, 6 logic). He will 'average' 7 hits or 5 boxes healed, almost as good as a 'perfect' roll from Lucky Jane. However if spending edge and or rolls 'good' Pepe can get considerably more then 8 success. If Pepe gets more then 8 sucess he can reduce the time he needs to patch Dan up. If he gets 14+ sucesses Pepe can patch 6 boxes of Dan up in one combat turn.
While admitedly a 'house' rule. It has been a long tradition and other rules still allow extra sucess to buy down the 'time' so this is a logical extension and means while there is a hard 'limit' to how much first aid can help you. Larger dice pools do have a decisive advantage even if somehow pushed to the points that getting 8+ hits is common/likely.
Peace
Yeah, I've thought about that as well. Good idea. 
Lets remember that the first aid kits of Shadowrun are supposed to contain medical tech, far beyond what is availble today. If you ignore what you can achive with out a med supplies your fine actually.
Shadowrun is a world where you can have bioware like platelet factories.
Also take note that magicial healing could make ALL wound boxs go away. So tell my why a mage gets heal 12 boxs of damage with magic but a mundane with medical technology 64 years into the future can't heal 6. Think about what medical technology was like 60 years ago. Now think about it 60 years from now after the advent of the awakening.
Alot of you appear to forget that it takes 3 net hits to heal one box of damage its each hit beyond the threshold of (2).
Shadowrun is a world where you can have bioware like platelet factories.
Also take note that magicial healing could make ALL wound boxs go away. So tell my why a mage gets heal 12 boxs of damage with magic but a mundane with medical technology 64 years into the future can't heal 6. Think about what medical technology was like 60 years ago. Now think about it 60 years from now after the advent of the awakening.
Alot of you appear to forget that it takes 3 net hits to heal one box of damage its each hit beyond the threshold of (2).
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| Lets remember that the first aid kits of Shadowrun are supposed to contain medical tech, far beyond what is availble today. If you ignore what you can achive with out a med supplies your fine actually. |
This is a half valid point. Yes, I can believe that future medkits might come with some sort of "skinseal" cream or similar stuff that can quickly knit flesh together. Hell, have you read about those crazy trauma bandages the Army is using that are based on some sort of shrimp protein? They completely shut off blood flow even from big holes.
But the rules still unrealistically allow notable healing with no tools. Future tech that's not available to you at the particular moment can't explain how you can do something that you can't do today.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Healing 6 boxes could make a minor assault rifle bullet wound disappear completely. A good shot (hey look ... skill level improves the performance of the rifle with no upper limit based on skill level!) would do more damage, and so would not quite disappear. Of course, as you keep pointing out, wounds and damage boxes are abstract things in Shadowrun. I am not arguing that the whole rating of the Medkit should be added. I just think 1 extra box of potential healing due to the synergy (ick!) of using the skill and tool together, is not terribly unbalancing (considering it'd almost never occur anyway). I understand that it isn't canon (and have never claimed it was), but I disagree with your assessment about it being unrealistic. |
6 boxes isn't a minor hit, it's an average hit. you scale up with attack successes, and down with dodge/soak successes, for a rough average of 6. as for being unrealistic, it's unrealistic for first aid to be repairing the as much damage as it does in the first place. that's just not how it works. having first aid heal even more is, therefore, even more unrealistic. the reason it's realistic to not limit the amount of damage a high-skilled character can do with a rifle is that there is already a realistic limit on the amount of damage a rifle can do: death. no such limit is inherent in the base first aid mechanic (boxes healed = succs -2), therefore one must be imposed artificially. and even that is unrealistically high.
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| Lets remember that the first aid kits of Shadowrun are supposed to contain medical tech, far beyond what is availble today. If you ignore what you can achive with out a med supplies your fine actually. Shadowrun is a world where you can have bioware like platelet factories. Also take note that magicial healing could make ALL wound boxs go away. So tell my why a mage gets heal 12 boxs of damage with magic but a mundane with medical technology 64 years into the future can't heal 6. Think about what medical technology was like 60 years ago. Now think about it 60 years from now after the advent of the awakening. |
the largest advances in battlefield medical practice in the last 60 years has been in getting the wounded to proper medical facilities faster. behind that have been advances that keep the wounded from dying as quickly, so that they can survive long enough to reach proper medical attention. first aid technology was pretty much perfected by the time of the american civil war; there have been some minor advances in preventing long-term complications (infections, mostly), but nothing that allows the wounded to actually get up and fight again if they weren't able to prior to being treated.
Jack:
Hmm I guess the first answer would be ITs the rules (as written)
Magic in shadowrun has always 'done the impossible' and is usually better (if vastly harder to aqcuire) then 'mundane' solutions.
To heal that 12 boxes of damage that mage is casting the heal at force 12 (or higher) which means unless an INSANE amount of karma the mage is risking (however unlikely) killing themslves (physical drain) (well only killing themslves if there body is 4 or less).
To put the line in comparison that mage (with the same amount of 'sucesses' could mentally move 12 * 200kg or 2,400kg (5,280 lbs for us americans) at 144 meters (472.4 feet) per turn. (with less 'drain' to their body/mind).
So you a ¥600 nuyen crowbar allow a person to mve that much wait that fast?
Shadowrun has ALWAYS been magic > tech (else NAN revolution could never have happened).
Shadoowrun tech already allows a person to in a minute patch serious (if not quite life threatening) wounds with 'future tech' and with good first aid and a good 'doctor' doing medicine it is VERY likely that a person 99% killed COULD be perfectly health 1 day later. That is a pretty far advanced advanced from the present years for some recovers (massive burns for example) where in shadowrun good first aid, amazing Medicine roll and 24 hours of bed rest later if the person was alive when treatement started they are perfectly fine.
Obviously you are free to change you rules as you wish; however a large porition of shadowrun is based on MAGIC > everything else. If a well trained computer and or 'medic' can do things as well the best of the mages, then 'magic' is now a garden trick which is NOT the designed 'feel'.
I personally would not chnge the rules as is.
If you want to make medkits (and/or first aid) more valuable. Allow a first aid (2) check to 'diagnosis' indvidual 'wounds' Allowing a person to be partially healed. (time 1 minute per hit)
Example: Big Bad Troll (body 15) is dying (15 boxes filled in).
Pepe the paramedic realizes his body is hurt bad AND they need him to get through the next porition of their run.
Pepe being the best paramedic around is totally confident he could patch the biggest holes and get BBT back up; however he might not be in good enough condition to get through the next part.
Pepe takes his time and makes a First Aid roll getting 6 sucesses. Taking six minutes to catalog and diagnosis his wounds, Pepe realize he could break them down into 4 major (6-2) 'groups' of wounds. (being 4,4,4,3 boxes each).
Pepe then spends another 4 additional 'first aid' test (and a total of 15 combat turns) and heals each of the groups completely.
(Personally I like this better then the next option as it requires the work of the 'medic' not just the player/GM).
If you want to get ABSOLUTE by RAW... then
Hmm I guess the first answer would be ITs the rules
(as written)Magic in shadowrun has always 'done the impossible' and is usually better (if vastly harder to aqcuire) then 'mundane' solutions.
To heal that 12 boxes of damage that mage is casting the heal at force 12 (or higher) which means unless an INSANE amount of karma the mage is risking (however unlikely) killing themslves (physical drain) (well only killing themslves if there body is 4 or less).
To put the line in comparison that mage (with the same amount of 'sucesses' could mentally move 12 * 200kg or 2,400kg (5,280 lbs for us americans) at 144 meters (472.4 feet) per turn. (with less 'drain' to their body/mind).
So you a ¥600 nuyen crowbar allow a person to mve that much wait that fast?
Shadowrun has ALWAYS been magic > tech (else NAN revolution could never have happened).
Shadoowrun tech already allows a person to in a minute patch serious (if not quite life threatening) wounds with 'future tech' and with good first aid and a good 'doctor' doing medicine it is VERY likely that a person 99% killed COULD be perfectly health 1 day later. That is a pretty far advanced advanced from the present years for some recovers (massive burns for example) where in shadowrun good first aid, amazing Medicine roll and 24 hours of bed rest later if the person was alive when treatement started they are perfectly fine.
Obviously you are free to change you rules as you wish; however a large porition of shadowrun is based on MAGIC > everything else. If a well trained computer and or 'medic' can do things as well the best of the mages, then 'magic' is now a garden trick which is NOT the designed 'feel'.
I personally would not chnge the rules as is.
If you want to make medkits (and/or first aid) more valuable. Allow a first aid (2) check to 'diagnosis' indvidual 'wounds' Allowing a person to be partially healed. (time 1 minute per hit)
Example: Big Bad Troll (body 15) is dying (15 boxes filled in).
Pepe the paramedic realizes his body is hurt bad AND they need him to get through the next porition of their run.
Pepe being the best paramedic around is totally confident he could patch the biggest holes and get BBT back up; however he might not be in good enough condition to get through the next part.
Pepe takes his time and makes a First Aid roll getting 6 sucesses. Taking six minutes to catalog and diagnosis his wounds, Pepe realize he could break them down into 4 major (6-2) 'groups' of wounds. (being 4,4,4,3 boxes each).
Pepe then spends another 4 additional 'first aid' test (and a total of 15 combat turns) and heals each of the groups completely.
(Personally I like this better then the next option as it requires the work of the 'medic' not just the player/GM).
If you want to get ABSOLUTE by RAW... then
| QUOTE |
| First Aid may only be applied once (for that set of wounds) |
Record each set of 'wounds' individually. Each first aid attempt is patching 'one' of them. (though in truth this makes multiple casting of smaller heals alot less draining also).
| QUOTE (laughingowl @ Oct 24 2006, 12:19 PM) |
| Record each set of 'wounds' individually. Each first aid attempt is patching 'one' of them. |
I'm considereing doing this very thing. Instead of making a test for the whole abstract Wound level, it wouldn't be difficult to actually divide the damage up into their component Wounds (eg. 5 boxes from that assault rifle and 2 boxes from a knife wound), and then make a test for each individual wound. This would still keep those large, single-hit wounds (like that hole in your chest from the Assault Cannon) from being totally healed with First Aid.
Of course, it would add more bookwork.
It's more paperwork, but then, you have to track drain separately from other types of damage already so you know what you can heal...
| QUOTE |
If you want to get ABSOLUTE by RAW... then QUOTE First Aid may only be applied once (for that set of wounds) Record each set of 'wounds' individually. Each first aid attempt is patching 'one' of them. (though in truth this makes multiple casting of smaller heals alot less draining also). |
You do realize this is a bad idea...
So if you do firstaid you can seperate wounds out based on type or when they occoured and heal them seperatly.
What do you do for the mage with the heal spell? Seperate out the wounds and take drain (wound level-2DV) for the individual wounds.
SR RAW has always delt with wounds the same way. What do you think "SET" means? Individual wounds... Ah, no... When you do firstaid (or magic) the instant you start work on healing you take the total wounds.
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