(Sorry, doing the topic here 'cause the Lounge is closed)

Yeah, fear the CIN ! The "Carte d'Identité Nationale" or in english NIC "National Identity Card".

The French have started it since 1955 ! The CIN is :

Sounds like a passport to me. What am I missing?

Yeah part of it is a passport but it's a identity card too.

It's sure that I'm not a French but it's look like something to prove that you are one, around the globe and in your country. That's not obligatory but I think that in some years.... maybe....

Edit : And if some country start to create a CIN, in a near future something unilateral will be made like the SIN, maybe...

So? The US has been talking about implementing those recently. And they're doing practically the same thing already with Driver's licenses. Land of the free my ass... Still, it's better than any of the alternatives...

Yeah, the Shadowrun SIN's don't spook me for the same reason... but if it (the tech) ever gets implanted... *shiver*

So? We have had that for what seems like an eternity here. We are already in a world of SIN :)

This has been suggested in the US from time to time, but usually gets shouted down. The Federated system of our government would make it hard to do since it would be a combination of state and federal gov't agencies giving info. They can't even agree on gun checks

Truthfully, I'm not adverse to a standardized version of the driver's license and a national database of that information.

The individual states can have their own logo -here- and still implement their own requirements, but call me a nut -- I like the idea of a highway patrol officer in Florida being able to verify a South Dakota driver's license.

-Siege

We've had "SINs" in Uruguay since as far as I can rememebr. We call it C.I. / Cédula de Identidad. It has your name, birthdate, birthplace, thumb fingerprint, an eight-digit numerical code, your signature, your photo, date of emission and of expiration.

We also have a Civic Credential, where you register every time you've voted in an official event (elections, referendums, etc.), voting in elections is mandatory here (you are fined if you don't vote).

Trust me, a C.I. is a far, far step from an intrusive, big-brother style SIN (and it actually helps: for example, we don't need passport to go to Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Paraguay... I cant remember about other Latin American countries).

I don't understand why do they have so much trouble in the US implementing such a system (although I'm open to an explanation).

Cédula de Identidad: What is it? (the website is in spanish, sorry).

Because we have a whole "personal freedom, wild wild west frontier" mindset.

We have an instinctive dislike of a big Federal Government with a big Brother mentality. Which comes up every election (go figure).

The same reason why we hold so dearly to our right to bear arms and defend it in the face of common sense and all practicality.

Check out: http://www.nra.org/

For some insight into the mindset.

-Siege

I think I can say, for having lived in the French system for some time now, that we're pretty far from a SIN. First you're not forced to establish an ID card. Myself I don't, though I should (I keep using an old passport as an ID piece, but I should return it to the legal owner, the state, as it reached its use-by date).

The most important difference is that the different documents are not merged. I have different numbers on my passport (foreign affairs ministry), social security card (ministry of health), student card (education & research), as I would on my identity card (Interior ministry) if I established one. And so do my bank account number. 'They' still have use my name and my birth to jump from one database to another.

But if you want some other parallels with SIN system, the chip on my social security card stores all my medical files (or should if the doc always thought about using it). The one on my credit card store basic information about my last expense. Heck, we even have "certified credstick" called Moneo and making a flop (okay, limited to 100 euro, but for the rest it's exactly that). The ID card has no chip but there can be some sort of "handscripted data trail" as when you're paying by check: above a certain sum, shoopkeeper often ask for an ID card and write the number on the back of the check. The databases interconnection might be the last thing really missing.

BTW, in France the police can conduct identity check (I let you imagine it has often to do the color of your skin or the way you're dressed) to prevent disturbance of the public order, or in any case when you're at less than 20km from the border, or in an airport or a similar place. If you can't produce an ID piece (anything with a picture and a name if the cop is in a good day...) or at least been identified by a parent or a friend (who has himself a piece), they can detain you for 4 hours max to check it by themselves (and if they find you're a criminal or an illegal immigrant, switch to a more problematic situation for you). A lack of cooperation can also result in a fee or prison.

The predecessor to the Constitution was a failure because the principle of keeping government weak was so ingrained as to make the thing powerless. The Constitution was written to keep government just strong enough to ensure personal property rights.

~J

Well, yeah, that's what I meant to say; government that's strong enough to enforce basic rights like right to property etc, but still limited so as to assure those liberties. However he failure of the weak central government of the AoC doesn't mean we should take a flying leap in the other direction to compensate and thankfully, the drafters of the constitution agreed.

Not saying that the Articles of Confederation were a brilliant idea, but there is a good amount of debate among historians if ANY government could have been successful in the early years of the Nation, given all the hoopla that was going on at the time.

I'm not a big fan of the NRA, but it does provide an insight into the "right to weapons" mindset and into the "no big government" mindset as well.

-Siege

Anyone want to do the extrapolation of relative population size?

-Siege

China have 50 kill by gun per year, and they are more than US.

Look at the movie... you will get a better idea of the subject. Better, it's made by a US producer, Micheal Moore.

Edit : US have a population around 242 million. Canada around 31 million. US have 9x more population. So if we get the kill by gun of Canada (around 250) to the population of US, x9, we get 2250 kill by gun so... 4x less than US now.

Edit : And I don't to start a flamme war to "Who is better", nah. It just that I think that our firearm legislation is way more secure than the US one.

Fair enough.