Forgive me if this has been covered before (my search-foo is weak), but let's go through this. They both have a Response rating of 1.

I guess those commlinks aren't meant to run programs - just send recieve calls / sms and browse the web. Just like your basic mobile phone these days.

ugh, not that debate again...

do a search, you will find that yes the rules can be interpreted that way but we don't know if its the correct interpretation.

hell, that interpretation have a nasty feedback loop in it that makes almost any comlink below rating 4 on both (as one limits the other) will spiral to a crash the moment you load the system rating in programs.

its as if one was trying to model the behavior of a windows ME box or something...

(hmm, firefox 2.0 with inline spellchecker is nice )

Eh, houserule it. It can run System x 2 programs, and response can't drop below 1. So it can run 2 rating 1 programs.

FIXED!

Heh.

But again, the key to me is that you assume the commlink is used to run programs.

I would assume those can send and receive transmissions, and maybe store a gig or so of data, and that's it.

I ignore the rules that don't make sense, it worked wonders for cyberlimbs, shaped charge explosions, and TMs, it'll work wonders for commlinks!

Works for me!

Technomancers and SURGE are the two things I really dislike in Shadowrun canon.

I've just ruled that the program limit goes to system rating; otherwise as written the Vector Xim operating system is functionally useless from a game mechanics standpoint (ok, so firewall 1 isn't functionally useless but the system 1 sure would be)

alternately just discourage anyone from actually *buying* it and handwave away the death-spiral effect on higher rated systems.

I voted other, just doing a little thinking outside the box.

responce = max system rating.
system rating = max rating for programs
system x 2 = max # of subscriptions
system -1 = max # of active programs before responce is effected
system /2) + 8 = boxes in the persona condition monitor
system = max firewall rating.
Responce + System = Matrix iniciative

Where do the rules say that the device crashes if responce is reduced to 0? What I've read says that a user with a MetaLink running Edit 1

makes tests to change or erase a file with (computer + zero) dice
Cannot be subscribed to
cannot run another program
has a condition monitor with 8 boxes
has no operative firewall
has a matrix iniciative of zero when in full VR thus cannot run full VR

posibly there is such a thing as a rating 0 system? I say this because most die pools are made up of two things; body+armor, Skill + atribute, Skill + device/program rating. you can make a test with a skill of zero. You can resist damage with no armor. The only program that is paired with responce is Reality filter.

Ah Ha! The n00bie gets a cudo, my very first. Thanx Grinder

Interesting.

I seem to recall reading something about being able to install (any level of?) Firewall on any kind of Device, no matter what the Rating (which equates to System/Response). This, along with several references to this very thing on these Forums somewhere led me to believe that Firewalls are an exception to that restriction.

Not much in the way of hard evidence at the moment though.

Firewall isn't a program. It's a statistic for the device, like signal. It is independent of the device rating unless no firewall is given, then it is assumed to be the device rating.

Cite Calvin from Calvin&Hobbes:"I got loads of common sense, I just choose to ignore it".

Not all software is a program counting against the response limit. See knowsofts.

lets just say im waiting for the faq (as in, unwired).

just use the following:

Response
Instead of making you keep up with the number of programs you are running you just have to worry about a few programs. Agents are a resource drains. You can run one agent and one IC on your commlink. After that every agent, pilot, or IC on your commlink drops the response by 1. You can’t run more then one system on your commlink without immediately dropping the response by 1. Other then that the response won’t be an issue unless the GM says so.

I guess my question is:

Where does it say a commlink/OS/whatever thingy crashes if you somehow get response to 0?

How do you know it doesn't merely stop at Response 1, and you can't add any other programs since you hit the limit?

That would mean the chips and such run a single program at a time. They do the one, get what they need, load the other, use that info as needed, back and forth, etc, etc.

Since you can do actions faster on the matrix and programs obviously run a little faster too, it's not a big deal for the chips and such to be constantly switching programs around to function.

Yes? No? Potatoes?

if you're talking about switching (or SWAPING in sr3 terms) programs on a comlink then the process requires a simple action to quit one prog and a complex action to run the next one. Effectivly two iniciative passes.

In SR three there used to be a Swap action or something that took only a simple action I think. (books are boxed not geting them out now) but it was still required an action on the part of the operator.

As far as 'softs go (data, lingua, know, active) they used to require loads of memory, since memory is gone now system responce is the limiting factor.

(if the next cyber book doesn't bring my Chip Jack Expert Driver back in some form I'm going up to Chicago or where ever fanpro is to perform some claw hammer persuasion.)

Hmm, so 'Softs are run on your wetware? I like it for flavor.

Some thoughts about 'Softs vs. system responce threshold;

I can't see a datasoft or lingua soft requireing as much power as a pilot OS to run. on the otherhand how can you access a datasoft without running an edit program.

From my deep meditations on Cyberlimbs [/sarcasm] I'm convinced that the DNI in a cyberarm translates all of the sensory data collected by electronic/mechanical sencors in the limb to a signal that the CNS (central nervous system/brain) can understand and respond to. While there is a device rating, thus allmost certainly an operating system, for a cyberlimb The only interface device is the DNI. This leads me to believe that a DNI is simply a DEDICATED DataJack. An analogue would be the Linguasoft. The brain only needs to understand and respond to the instructions on the 'soft which is functionality that the Jack could provide.

Finaly, I don't know what "chips" are in SR. It seems concensus that chips are like cd/dvds, nothing but memory, but if they are a "chip" that implies, (to my limited understanding of electronics) that they may have some processing power of their own.

If firewall's a program, that means that it counts towards the limit for response degridation. That would suck.

I don't like it effecting the program limit either but it is a program. It's just an important attribute so they list it.

I'm thinking about just getting rid of any commlink with a rating less then 3.

I tend to consider that rating 1/2 commlink are simple cellphones : according to RAW, the standard rating for "standard personnal electronics" is 3.

But even this way it's quite strange : any commlink would need to use at least a "Scan" program to be able to see remote nodes (but every OS has a rating 1 Scan Program built-in) and an "Analyze" program to identify them.
You would then need an "Edit" program to do something like sending an e-mail. So if you want to send an e-mail, you need at least 2 programs, requiring a rating 2 commlink.

Of course, you can rule that any commlink runs rating 1 common-use programs built-in the OS without breaking game balance.

I just assume the existence of a slightly unrealistic but useful for game purposes "...to a minimum of 1." clause on this sort of thing. So that makes the Meta Link the most resistant-to-degradation commlink on the market.

I justify it with "Things slow to a crawl, but never actually stop, they just become worthlessly slow.", and use the example of a modern copy of Word on a computer from five years ago to back it up.

as far as system limiting firewall, system limits what the OS can run. firewall is part of the OS. it is not run by the OS, it *is* the OS.

and on a side note, i swear i remember seeing a comment about system not limiting firewall when i read through the whole book... i can't for the life of me find it now...

so if _is_ part of the OS why are you so adamant it should be able to go higher than the other core of the OS - the System? System is the OS - it is limited by Response. Firewall is the OS - you say it is not limited by anything.

a Response 1 | Signal 1 | Sytem 1 | Firewall 6 node is just stupid

This quote might clarify things a little ...