I bought my first post-FASA Shadowrun book today (been out of the loop for a bit): Man & Machine: Cyberware, for 3rd Edition. I'm more than a little distressed by the complete lack of flavor text (the parts where characters, rather than the developers, are speaking). IMO, it added a lot to the older sourcebooks. Is this deficit typical of FanPro products? If so, why?

If you're refering to Shadow talk there's plenty of it, M&M might just be the exception to the rule... I haven't opened my copy in ages.

I don't recall there being as much Shadowtalk as in the FASA sourcebooks, but it's there, especially in the info-only books (such as the Shadows of... books and System Failure).

The rulebooks don't have shadowtalk (or little of it), the other books have it. However, Man and Machine and Cannon Companion are rulebooks rather than gear-focused other books like they were in previous editions.

Apocrypha not considered, of course.

~J

Ahh, I see. Thanks for the enlightenment, gentlemen.

Also, Man and Machine was originally published by FASA; all of the 3rd Edition rulebooks were. FanPro later reprinted most of them, however.

Foolish mortal! Don't you know that Man and Machine isn't about flavor text and character development, but is rather about unadulterated munchkinism!?!!?!!!!!

Street Magic has shadowtalk.

Seems like every new edition of Shadowrun has less and less flavour in it. I don't like that. Feels like it's taking itself too seriously.

Yeah, developing them into an extension of the munchkin's ego.

it's been a good while....but doesn't M&M have an entire chapter of Shadowtalk regarding Merc Professionalism, taught by some character?

As was said previously, the trend is (and has been since the advent of SR3) that Rulebooks are for rules, and Sourcebooks are for flavor (with a few rules). Books like M&M and Street Magic are predominantly rules expansions, and as such have little to no shadowtalk, whereas books like Fields of Fire, Shadows of ..., and Runner Havens (admittedly to a lesser degree), contain all the much-loved fluff and shadow community interaction.

Maybe so, but it's been pretty much the same policy for the better part of the last 10 years, starting way back while FASA still ran things, before FanPro and WizKids became involved.

There's a difference between fluff and shadowtalk though. Tanegar is, from his example, talking about the difference in Cybertechnology and books of that era, and stuff like Man & Machine. They're both "gear and cyber" books, but one has ... character and the other doesn't.

I'm with ya man. I'd take half the gear/rules if it meant reading stuff like Hatchetman's recollections in every book.

I agree with everyone's feelings on the flavor text. I loved Hatchetman's story in Cybertechnology also. But it's a juggling act with the current economics of RPG publishing. I can't say I watch the numbers as closely as Rob or Adam does, but I believe the market has generally been shrinking. So the sales aren't usually there to support many seperate book releases on specific topics (one book for cybertech, another book for simsense, another book for bioware), which leads to books that need to fit more material in a strict word count.

So you try to balance it out and that's what we did with Street Magic, but it's tough.

I am a big fan of shadowtalk, since I bought my 2nd edition street samurai catalogue.

I liked the way the shadowtalk was handled in Street Magic, how it is there in the background section, but not in the actual rules part, where it would have cluttered up things.

Oh yeah. No digs intended as far as the business and design side. I wish it wasn't the case, but wish in one hand...

Sorry, meant flavor text when I said fluff, but I was going on that the OP meant "fluff other than just shadowtalk". Shadowtalk is indeed fluffy, but not what I think Tanegar was mourning the lack of.

I am unsure what you are trying to say, as my point is still as valid when applied to the terms 'fluff' and 'flavor text' as it is to the term 'shadowtalk'. That point being that since around the time of the release of SR3 the decision was made to make Rulebooks more crunchy (with more rules and less 'insert proper word here'), while the supporting Sourcebooks contain all the juicy bits and less in the way of rules.

Economics has also had a pretty big impact, in that it just isn't feasible from a marketing perspective to release books like SSC or Cybertechnology nowadays.

I just realized something. You're taking my initial post to be directly in response somehow to yours.

I was just making the comment, because it seems as though most of the posters following the OP were speaking pretty strictly of the shadowtalk.

The only time I'm remotely addressing the economics is when I said "no digs against the business...", and even then I just didn't want anyone to take my comments as "teh Fanpro sux".

Well, those of you who liked the Street Magic approach to fluff and shadowtalk can expect to see more of it in the remaining core rulebooks for SR4. This time round we definitely didn't want them to be all-crunch.

Cool.

*Move along. Nothing to see here. Move along.*

[edit] This response applies to both posts above. [/edit]

Actually, my problem is the opposite. I understand that it's not a new phenomenon, but seeing names I recognize from real life (well, DS-RL) in the shadowtalk makes it really hard to take it all seriously—I'd like the game to take itself more seriously.

But then, anything done with new books doesn't really affect me anymore

~J

The change in the shadowtalk that is in fourth edition books [thought that one might need a bit of emphasis ... ] from Shadowland to Jackpoint sort of eliminates the "Umm, need a shadowtalker name, I'll drop in a random friend" problem, since the cast of characters is more limited.

I like the separation. Hell its hard enough to find a rule in the rules section without having to negotiate through the flavor text too. same in the Shadows Of Series. Almost entirely flavor. (and delicious at that) in the usual style of the "shadowland posting about >fill in the blank<

The true way of the 80s would be to just give every speaker a random (and unintentionally culturally incorrect) asian name.

Wu Pho Yamato?

~J

one flavor text style i would not mind see again is the long conversation at the start of VR2.0. how many other books are opened that way, with a discussion about reality?