When the players each made their characters I explained to them that the basic mechanic was Attribute+Skill. So the player making the hacker naturally boosted Logic (Which is used by the hacking skill group) but during gameplay we've found that hacking primarily uses the mechanic Skill+Program.

So what does a hacker need Logic for?

oh, hackers need logic a lot.

that is to say, if they intend to program anything at all, they're going to spend a whole heck of a lot of (in game, not RL) time using their logic attribute, on account of it takes months to program just about anything.

(FWIW, a somewhat common house rules seems to be more along the lines of spells... you roll logic + hacking/computer, and the program rating caps your successes, kinda like how magic works. alternately, i believe i've seen at least one place (Frank's rules, maybe?) where it's capped by the program rating + 1, so that you can do limited stuff even if you have no program for it)

this certainly makes it more appealing to have logic as a hacker, since if you couldn't tell from the first part of my post it's not terribly useful for programming anything... (in fact, that would probably also make TMs a lot more appealing, especially if you made another houserule to use resonance + hacking/computer skill capped by CF rating... maybe i'll whip something up real quick to see how that would work for a chargen TM. of course, this just makes them even more unable to take cyber/bioware without screwing themselves over...)

Script kiddies don't need logic.

Script kiddies may not, but useful Hackers who actually want to garner some measure of professional respect can't rely on other people's programs.

Script kiddies shouldn't be as good as an actual hacker with a good logic score.

Add another GM to the list of who uses the logic + skill capped by program rating houserule.

Another possible houserule that might be worth considering is to cap program rating at logic. That way, it works pretty much exactly the way it was playtested - except characters are forced to make sense. The in game explanation would be "it doesn't matter how good the program is if you can't figure out how to use it to its full potential".

Yeah we need to see those hackers with Logic 6 and rating 3 cerebral boosters really using those brains.

The problem with doing the success caps like that is that you are replacing one system unlike the core mechanic with another. I know that some spells are like that but I don't see what the problem is with just adding the program to the Attribute + Skill. It just works like another device. You end up with a fair amount of dice but you would be facing others with the same thing so it balences back out.
Then just make it so that you can't do that action without the program, unless you are slow hacking.

I use this:

Matrix Actions

This returns the comupter system to the core mechanic: Attribute + Skill +/- Device. All character based rolls use this. Agents may use the Pilot + Program mechanic.

Free Actions

* Alter / Swap Icon (pg 211)
* Changed Linked Device (pg 135)
* Detect Wireless Node (pg 225) - Logic + Electronic Warfare /Scan
* Jacking Out (pg 220)
* Speak Text or Phrase (pg 136)
* Terminate Data Transfer (pg 219)

Simple Actions

* Call/Dismiss Sprite (pg 235)
* Deactivate Program or Agent (pg 228)
* Decrypt with key (pg 225)
* Issue Command (pg 221)
* Log Off (pg 220)
* Observe in Detail (pg 217) - Inituition + Computer /Analyze
* Transfer Data (pg 219)

Complex Actions

* Attack (pg 230) - Inituition + Cybercombat /Attack
* Compile Sprite (pg 234) - Resonance + Compiling
* Control Device (pg 220) - Inituition + Device Skill /Command
* Crash Program/OS (pg 223) - Logic + Hacking /Attack
* Data Search (pg 219) - Inituition + Data Search /Browse
* Decrypt (without key) (pg 225) - Logic + Hacking /Decrypt
* Detect Hidden Node (pg 225) - Inituition + Electronic Warfare /Scan
* Disarm Data Bomb (pg 224) - Logic + Hacking /Defuse
* Edit (pg 218) - Logic + Computer /Edit
* Intercept Traffic (pg 223) - Inituition + Hacking /Sniffer
* Intercept Wireless Signal (pg 225) - Inituition + Electronics Warfare /Sniffer
* Jam Signal (pg 225) - Logic + Electronics Warfare /Jammer
* Log On (pg 220)
* Reboot (pg 221) - System + Response
* Reboot Technomancer (pg 221) - Logic + Willpower
* Redirect Trace (pg 224) - Inituition + Hacking /Spoof
* Repair Icon (pg 219) - Logic + Computer /Medic
* Run Program or Agent (pg 227)
* Shut Down a Sprite (pg 236) - Resonance + Decompiling
* Spoof Command (pg 224) - Inituition + Hacking /Spoof
* Track User (pg 219) - Inituition + Computer /Track

Intuition is used in tests requiring reaction or cunning. GM can request that Logic be used instead if it makes more sense in the circumstances.

I dont know about adding the program rating into the dice pool... That would allow some people to oneshot another matrix user sometimes, or outright kill them with black attacks.
I would just use the programs as a limiter on how many hits you can get, being Program rating + 1 as the max.
That way, even though you might not have a program, which is often in a TM's case, your base logic and skill knowhow can at least get you something done. Like searching the net (Lets say for Pred IV repair instrucitons), without a search engine (google), the hacker will have to just type out random web addresses to try and find something relavent. (Predator.com, Aresguns.com, NRA.org, etc) Obviously not the most efficient way to do it, but it might get you something.

The hacking actions probably wont work without actually having the program at least at level 1. Attack, armor and the such.

Actually you just hit on something that I have wondered about. Don't they have search engines anymore? Why the data search program on your commlink?

It could be argued that there are no more servers on which to run search engines. If the entire matrix has been replaced by a mesh network, finding someone within broadcast or rebroadcast range who is making a search program (which might contain personal configurations) publicallly available could be a crapshoot, but not impossible as indicated by the option of defaulting to the data search skill. More convenient to have your own adaptive web crawler at your fingertips.

I thought that there was still a Matrix on land lines as a back bone and the wireless part was just access.

All the old hard lines are still there and they even have the old terminals.

In HotSim VR mode, the hacker spends 1 second to do his complex action... Logic isn't really involved here. It's just about having good programs and knowing how to use them.

Logic is invloved when the hacker actually has time to think about something. Hacking isn't all about using programs to do things just like B&E isn't just about using tools to get inside. Sometimes, you'll be confronted with something that'll need some intelligent thinking.

For example, you've got a nifty sequencer and you're using it to unlock a door. The problem is, the door unlocks when you enter some short sequence but triggers an alarm if you don't enter another code afterwards. If you just know how to use the sequencer, you'll get inside, trigger an alarm and get caught. If you're a covert-ops specialist, you'll know about this and let your sequencer run a bit longer.

It's exactly the same in the Matrix : if you're logical, you'll guess that this "TOP SECRET" node is just a one-way node full of Black ICE.

Nothing prevents the GM to ask for a "Logic+Hacking" test from time to time, to see if the hacker will be able to figure out such traps. And nothing prevents the GM to quickly resolve non-vital hacking scenes by simply asking for a "Logic+Hacking" test, the same way he may ask the face to roll "Charisma+Con" to quickly resolve a social encounter.

p. 218 Using Computer Skill
"When you are dealing with a particular device, you roll
Computer + Logic against an appropriate gamemaster-determined
threshold. When you are utilizing a particular program,
you roll Computer + program rating. Standard situational modifi
ers may apply, as decided by the gamemaster."

p. 223 Using Hacking Skill
"When you are directly
interacting with a device, make Hacking Tests using Hacking
skill + Logic. If you are utilizing a hacking program, makes tests
using Hacking skill + program rating."

p. 225 Using Electronic Warfare Skill

"When dealing hands-on with communications technology,
make tests using Electronic Warfare + Logic. When utilizing
programs, use Electronic Warfare + program rating.'

Now for the tricky part, there are lots and lots of examples of doing Skill + Program, but I can't find examples of Skill + Attribute.

But the statements seem to apply that you can use Skill + Attribute to accomplish, what exactly?

In each section there follows a list of tasks using the skill.

It seems to imply you can default to Logic, or simply use Logic instead of the program.

Hmmmm, what about:
Program+Skill (max hits equal to program rating+1) for the script kiddies
-or-
Logic+Skill(max hits equal to program rating+1) for the real hackers.
And by "-or-" I mean it is decided at the time of dice rolling, and characters can choose to use whichever method is more beneficial to them?
This idea is off the top of my head, is it crap?
edit: It looks like DireRadiant and I are thinking along the same lines, aren't we?

Now, I use the matrix rules basically as they're written in the book, but I've long thought it'd be better to have programs be like (in a metaphorical sense) matrix gear/cyber, as opposed to the more common proposed change, which makes them like spells. (I would rather see a variation of that applied to TMs.) So Matrix actions are made with Att + Skill, and programs provide bonuses or other benefits to the action (and are often required). For example, a cybercombat attack is made by rolling Logic + Cybercombat. An attack program would determine the base DV for the attack. There could be a wide variety of attack programs that provide other benefits, probably in exchange for a reduced DV (or perhaps all attack programs have (rating) DV plus other effects). The same would go for other actions. Medic, for example, would be very simple. Its rating is added to the Repair Icon test (Logic + Computer, probably), though I would give it a threshold of 2 to bring it more in line with RL first aid.

Just some thoughts. I've not tried to implement it or formally write it up, mostly because my group doesn't hack much.

I don't think that the fact that maxing out an attribute and boosting it as much as you can gets you a benefit, even a major one, makes a rule game-breaking. I don't like the suggested rule, either, but not for that reason.

Hah well you never said I'd be limited by responce. I suppose it's not game breaking, but I still don't like it. It makes being a hacker too cheap and easy. If logic and programs are required, it's more inline with the investment required to be a good face, mage, or sammy.

I partly agree with that.
If the Internet is mostly free, it's because it originated from the military (who won't pay for accessing their own network) and the researchers (who tend to distribute freely the content of their research). It was then mostly used by students who weren't intrested in getting money from it. That's the only reason why you don't pay to use a search engine. Had a company created the Internet, you'd have to pay to use it, just like you have to pay for most services.

But in Shadowrun as in Real Life, there are many people who actively support free information and net neutrality. A lot of cyberpunk fiction revolve around a community fighting against the megacorps for freedom of information. In Shadowrun such groups are frequently mentionned just like Open-Source software. The Matrix may not be as free as the internet, but it isn't completely owned by Megacorps.

Websearch engine are totally possible, even in SR4. It's just a public node with a public browse program. But most shadowrunners won't really appreciate leaving logs of their shadowy searches in a public node (even if the access to the log is restricted to superusers and their connexion is routed through an anonymizer) and those who wants to hide themselves will be able to evade such searches.

And you could safely assume that a Browse 1 program is equal to a publicly accessible browser (which is why all comms in my game automatically have Browse 1). Better than that requires specialized software, which likely does a lot more than just search for instances of a keyword you input.

I'm reminded of just how dang *expensive* the average Agent costs. Heck, a common level 2 runs as much as an entire *month* of a Low Lifestyle, and that's without even adding programs! I'm betting that no one under the Middle range has access to 'em, unless they coded their own.

Well.

On their *own* Commlink.

On an actual node, whole other animal. Corps can afford to put a handful of Agents for multiple users to share.

Of course having an agent or two on your side is quite useful as they can be a great aid and battle. One money saver is to write programs yourself. Once you program an Attack Program Rating 6. You can freely copy it onto any agent you wish.

On that, I'm hoping that they'll put in some degrading rule once the Wireless book comes out. Each iteration drops a rating, for example.

Now, if you had the master copy of a program (Rating 6), you could churn out 5's all day long, but to have a 6, you'd either have to code your own or use the original.

Meanwhile, anyone who got a '5' from you could make copies, but only at level 4.

And so on, and so on.

Otherwise, it doesn't seem very feasible on an economic scale to even *create* programs. The only things taht anyone would buy would be a program rated high enough that they, themselves couldn't code or that they couldn't just borrow from a friend for a DAY and crack.

Heaven forbid SOTA gets involved. Taking 3 months to make a rating 6 program, only to have SOTA knock it down 2 steps before you even finish?

Le Ow.

Kinda makes you wonder how MCT and friends stay in bidness.

Wakshaani

A few things I do to 'help' the issue.


1) the 'crack' test to by pass the software is to make A copy. EVERYTIME you need a copy, you need to crack it.

2) Glitches on the crack test can damage the copy. Cirtical glitches will damage the 'master'. (niether of these will be apparent until used for 'real' and then analysed to see why the didnt perform as expect. (matrix perception (3) to notice something not right, the logic+software (3) to actually identify the 'corrupted' section of code (though cant be fixed unless you can reprogram it/upgrade it).


3) I change all of the 'times' lists in the book to weeks BUT require 3 times the number of successes. (a slight reduction in total time needed ( 25% reduction) and a since I uses the maximum number of tries equal 'base' dice pool (skill+attribute) a better chance of 'failing' if coding above you abilities. If 'team working' to make a program though, you can crank them out fairly fast if you have 2-3 others 'helping' to dump dice into your test.

I really don't understand why everyone has such a big problem with software working in the game like it works in real life. Once you crack a commercial software program, you've got as many copies as you want to make - that's the way data works.

Yes, the Shadowrun world is a little bit odd given the existence of Agents. Perhaps there's a problem there that needs to be fixed. The solution to that problem shouldn't be to say that people can't copy data any more than the super broken attack of pushing someone off a tall building should be fixed by removing gravity from the game.

I agree. If it can be done in real life then that should be the ruler, not cannon.

One of the things that I did was gave the hackers a way to create their own programs quicker then the table they gave. That way as long as your character has the right levels in his skills he gets those programs for free. He is also assumed to be able to keep up with SOTA.

If one person buys high end software then everyone in the group gets a copy, but if it is too high a level then they can't keep up with the SOTA.

you could also assume that there is some minor hardware component to the program, and thus you need to 'crack' the program each time to match the new hardware. or you could just declare "it works like that because i want it to" and be done with it, since it is just a game after all.

I'd look into hacking the place that sends out all those update patches for Attack and Exploit Programs.

Personally, once you get into the weeks and months intervals for a task, I would use a house rule of that being working on in in typical business hours, say 9-5 (or given the way the SR universe treats workers 8-6).

This would mean that a hacker could well be programming and still get in a run or two. It may require a couple of nights without sleep so they may want to use some long-haul to help get the job done.

Yes, this does have the side-effect of most hackers constantly working on their next program, but I hardly see that as unrealistic.

Ranneko:

Yes another very valid way to cut down on the times is assume the 'lsited' time are 'work weeks' (or months).

So 40 hour 'weeks' and 4 week (160 hours) months.

Now even doing this the hacker can easily do 'other things' between the work. since the rules for extended test pretty much say (unless GM rules otherwise) that you just keep track of the time you have worked on it, when you get time equal to interfval you make a check.

As listed you COULD work on it for 15 minutes a week and ultimtely get a check. (either 2880 weeks later, if you go with a month being 30 days of 24 hours of work), or 640 weeks (if you go with a month being four forty hour weeks).

The one problem you need to decide on how to handle this is 'days'

Are days 24 hour period (so a week is less then twice as long as a day) or are days '8 hour periods'.

If adopting this I would suggest scaling days down to 8 hours also. (that still bumps it by a facotr of 8 of the next lower step hours).

I believe it is stated somewhere (but it could be in an older edition) that a 'Day' are considered to be 8 work hours.