Full Version: What's with the cattle skull?
In earlier editions, one of the main symbols of Shadowrun was the steer's skull. What was with that? And why did they get rid of it?
They got rid of it because no one could figure out what it was, I think.
~J
~J
If you're referring to the skull on the oldskool™ Shadowrun logo, I've never seen a steer that had horns that curved in that paricular arc.
Like most aboriginal imagery and a lot of other things that made SR unique and fun, a carefully crafted focus group study determined that the skull was not " The Matrix meets GITS" enough for mass appeal. They got rid of it the same day they decided that every shadowrunner had perfect teeth and wore nothing but black leather. It was sold off to the same museum that houses orks with speech impediments and full-page glossy ads for Weapons World and Stuffer Shack, which is housed in the building that was once Underworld 93, until Maria Mercurial, the Gingerbread Man and Arleesh were all shipped off to Schloss Munchmausen.
...but then, I'm kind of sentimental.
...but then, I'm kind of sentimental.
It was a sheep skull.
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| Like most aboriginal imagery and a lot of other things that made SR unique and fun, a carefully crafted focus group study determined that the skull was not " The Matrix meets GITS" enough for mass appeal. They got rid of it the same day they decided that every shadowrunner had perfect teeth and wore nothing but black leather. It was sold off to the same museum that houses orks with speech impediments and full-page glossy ads for Weapons World and Stuffer Shack, which is housed in the building that was once Underworld 93, until Maria Mercurial, the Gingerbread Man and Arleesh were all shipped off to Schloss Munchmausen. ...but then, I'm kind of sentimental. |
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| ...but then, I'm kind of sentimental. |
*hands over handkerchief* I know how you feel. Back in the old days...
When'd they get rid of it?
The 3rd edition BBB doesn't have the old logo, so I guess it happened somewhere around the edition change.
So what are, to you, the biggest changes between 2nd and 3rd edition, flavor-wise?
| QUOTE (Dog @ Oct 31 2006, 08:57 AM) |
| Like most aboriginal imagery and a lot of other things that made SR unique and fun, a carefully crafted focus group study determined that the skull was not " The Matrix meets GITS" enough for mass appeal. They got rid of it the same day they decided that every shadowrunner had perfect teeth and wore nothing but black leather. It was sold off to the same museum that houses orks with speech impediments and full-page glossy ads for Weapons World and Stuffer Shack, which is housed in the building that was once Underworld 93, until Maria Mercurial, the Gingerbread Man and Arleesh were all shipped off to Schloss Munchmausen. ...but then, I'm kind of sentimental. |
A-FREAKING-MEN!
Sorry, Dog got me riled there for a sec.
Emo, if you get the chance, just read through, say, either of the Neo-Anarchist's guides, and the old SSC, and just about any other book from that era of SR. Then jump back to the 3rd ed stuff like M&M, etc. The change is just in your face, and it's hard to describe the difference in feel any better than Dog has without spending an inordinate amount of time trying (not that I wouldn't, but I don't have time now).
Oh yeah, I read the Neo-Anarchist's guides. I haven't read any 3rd edition rulebooks, though. I liked how the Neo-Anarchist's guides had such a wonderfully detailed look at the world. It was very interestingly street-level.
And that, dear friends, is why I still play 2nd Ed (with a smattering of rules from 3rd).
Because 2nd Ed is just so damn flavorful.
Because 2nd Ed is just so damn flavorful.
I prefer the 3rd rules, or a variant on them, but I find that as time goes on I end up using 2nd/1st-edition flavour more and more.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Oh yeah, I read the Neo-Anarchist's guides. I haven't read any 3rd edition rulebooks, though. I liked how the Neo-Anarchist's guides had such a wonderfully detailed look at the world. It was very interestingly street-level. |
Basically, take all story and flavor text out of those books, and reduce them to rules and explanations with a light sprinkling of shadow talk, and you've got a 3rd edition rulebook.
They're good, and they serve their purpose perfectly, but they're just not as fun to read (to me).
| QUOTE |
| It was sold off to the same museum that houses orks with speech impediments and full-page glossy ads for Weapons World and Stuffer Shack, <snip> |
Would that be seattle's "laubenstein museum?"
Damn, how could I miss that?!
You bastards are making me hanker for 2nd edition again, when we still had Grounding.
I can't believe they took out Grounding in 3rd ed. It was the one thing balancing focii. Besides, what's cooler than grounding a Hellblast into Mr.-I'm-So-Cool-With-My-Rating-6-Focus-Claymore physad to show him whatfor?
I can't believe they took out Grounding in 3rd ed.
It was the one thing balancing focii. Besides, what's cooler than grounding a Hellblast into Mr.-I'm-So-Cool-With-My-Rating-6-Focus-Claymore physad to show him whatfor?
Heh. I just got done re-reading that one bit where the guys talking on SL are recounting the mage having exploded on their last run. Good stuff. 
(Think it's in NAGEE, been reading bits and pieces of several 2E books lately. edit: nope, think it was NAGRL)
(Think it's in NAGEE, been reading bits and pieces of several 2E books lately. edit: nope, think it was NAGRL)
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Oct 31 2006, 11:57 PM) |
| You bastards are making me hanker for 2nd edition again, when we still had Grounding. I can't believe they took out Grounding in 3rd ed. It was the one thing balancing focii. Besides, what's cooler than grounding a Hellblast into Mr.-I'm-So-Cool-With-My-Rating-6-Focus-Claymore physad to show him whatfor? |
sure grounding was fun, but i was one pain in the ass to wrap your head around.
i think i read said part of magic chapter in SR2 at least 6 times before i was starting to get it.
with it and focus addiction, no one bothered beyond maybe the first time. just to many ways to get messed up for it to be worth the time and karma.
still, grounding is not the only magic toy that got watered down or removed. anchoring anyone? anyone up for building magic bullets using SR2 anchoring rules?
SR3 and SR4 is like synthahole vs the real deal when it comes to anchoring.
still, from what i understand, SR4's take on it is a bit better then SR3. at least now you can again anchor a spell to mundane object. but as its written there is no way to store a spell in a ring and have it trigger on wearer command. it will either trigger on contact with a persons aura or not at all iirc...
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) | ||
sure grounding was fun, but i was one pain in the ass to wrap your head around. i think i read said part of magic chapter in SR2 at least 6 times before i was starting to get it. with it and focus addiction, no one bothered beyond maybe the first time. just to many ways to get messed up for it to be worth the time and karma. still, grounding is not the only magic toy that got watered down or removed. anchoring anyone? anyone up for building magic bullets using SR2 anchoring rules? SR3 and SR4 is like synthahole vs the real deal when it comes to anchoring. still, from what i understand, SR4's take on it is a bit better then SR3. at least now you can again anchor a spell to mundane object. but as its written there is no way to store a spell in a ring and have it trigger on wearer command. it will either trigger on contact with a persons aura or not at all iirc... |
Ugh don't get me started on SR4 anchoring.
As for grounding I can't say I miss it. My current character has four foci and can't even astrally perceive/project. I'd be toast.
| QUOTE (Draconis) |
| My current character has four foci and can't even astrally perceive/project. I'd be toast. |
Maybe I'm just sadistic, but that's why I liked it.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| It was a sheep skull. |
Not exactly. If it was it was a meta-sheep of somekind. IIRC It had several predatory features to it's design that normal sheep don't have. The two major ones I remember were the meat tearing incisors/teeth and foreward-set binocular/stereoscopic placement of the eyes like a predator, not the wide-set maximum periperal vision eye placement of a prey animal.
SR has hell cows. Hell sheep were the logical next step.
| QUOTE (Catsnightmare) | ||
Not exactly. If it was it was a meta-sheep of somekind. IIRC It had several predatory features to it's design that normal sheep don't have. The two major ones I remember were the meat tearing incisors/teeth and foreward-set binocular/stereoscopic placement of the eyes like a predator, not the wide-set maximum periperal vision eye placement of a prey animal. |
Rare Laubensteinian metasheep. Can eat through a troll in less than a minute.
Metasheep is probably right - I think it's a (wild) Satyr's skull. It pretty closely matches the shape of a live one's head, as pictured in PAoE (the muzzle, stereoscopic eye placement, and protruding "jowls" from the heavy mandible joint). Looking at the covers of both the 1st and 2nd ed core books, and I don't see any teeth or anything else particularly predatory about it other than the "threatening" angle it's set at to allow the circuit scroll to be laced through the horns.
*shrug*
Or it's some rare flesh-eating monster sheep. Which is certainly a much more amusing idea and makes about as much sense as anything.
*shrug*
Or it's some rare flesh-eating monster sheep. Which is certainly a much more amusing idea and makes about as much sense as anything.
There's a HMHVV - Ovis Strain, perhaps?
To give you the perspective of my mother, "It's a pagan symbol!" I never really thought that it had any particular basis in the Shadowrun biology but was just a symbol to represent the connection to Native American symbolism and such. Tech and magic; techy looking font with a magic skull.
guys, in pointing out how the flavor has slipped away, you're finally catching up to me. 
I'm sure Adam or Synner will confirm that has been my biggest bitch factor in SR for a long time. But I didn't notice the skull going, but yeah I did notice lots of black leather etc.
I'm sure Adam or Synner will confirm that has been my biggest bitch factor in SR for a long time. But I didn't notice the skull going, but yeah I did notice lots of black leather etc.
I think the flavour slipped away in SR3. At least the horrible cartoony graphics had a flavour diminishing effect on me. The look and feel of SR4 is a lot more polished than SR1/2 so it has less of a grimey feel to it. But the fluff text in things like Runner Havens still packs a punch. I think the rule books are now more ruley, but we can expect some good things from the setting books.
Perhaps a few good pieces of grimey shadowrun art would be good though. I'd love to see some big prints by some of the better artists out there.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| guys, in pointing out how the flavor has slipped away, you're finally catching up to me. I'm sure Adam or Synner will confirm that has been my biggest bitch factor in SR for a long time. |
I really don't think you have been 'the lone voice in the wilderness' over this fact.
| QUOTE |
| But I didn't notice the skull going |
Weird, that's the first thing I noticed about the change.
I noticed it the first time I saw the lack, but I never really put it into its proper "style is dying" context. I just looked upon it as a logo update. NO MORE!
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| But the fluff text in things like Runner Havens still packs a punch. |
For us non-native english speakers: is "packs a punch" a good or bad thing?
In this context, good. It is, in this use, an indication of emotional impact—other common uses refer to food or drink, and generally refer to spiciness or alcohol content (in both cases indicating a considerable amount).
~J
~J
Thank you 
SR1/2 was less polished, but no less cartoony thanks to illustrators like Laubenstein. Bradstreet was the grittiest theyve ever had; I'm also a fan of the stuff Janet Aulisio did (GM Screen).
gah.. i made this thread slip into the other art thread...
gah.. i made this thread slip into the other art thread...
There's nothing cartoony about David Bowie!
~J
~J
John, I'm only dancing. 
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 31 2006, 11:46 AM) |
| I prefer the 3rd rules, or a variant on them, but I find that as time goes on I end up using 2nd/1st-edition flavour more and more. ~J |
Similar here - I like the mechanics of the 4th edition rules* but the flavor is all 1st/2nd edition.
* heavily modified to keep that 1st/2nd edition feel.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| I think the flavour slipped away in SR3. At least the horrible cartoony graphics had a flavour diminishing effect on me. |
I could live with the cartoon art. What did it for me was the loss of the shadowtalk. Books like PoNA, PoE, SSC, Fields of Fire, and Shadowtech really shaped my image fo the '50s back in the day, and the loss of the insignificant, meaningless jabber of the world's inhabitants really put a serious dent in the imersion factor for me.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||||
I really don't think you have been 'the lone voice in the wilderness' over this fact.
Weird, that's the first thing I noticed about the change. |
Maybe not the lone voice, but one of the loudest bitches. might work.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| ... but one of the loudest bitches. |
How could I possibly disagree with that?
Man, I thought this conversation sounded familiar. What dark crevice of my mind I pulled this out of, hell if I know.
Man, I miss the Big Knobi Klub.
Man, I miss the Big Knobi Klub.
I dont know if anyone has already posted this in this thread, but on page 122 of the SR4 book, the cattle skull is in the pic. Check out the guy's shoulder.
| QUOTE (Snow Fox) |
| Maybe not the lone voice, but one of the loudest bitches. |
must... resist... urge... to agree!
(it was funnier the other way mfb)
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| I dont know if anyone has already posted this in this thread, but on page 122 of the SR4 book, the cattle skull is in the pic. Check out the guy's shoulder. |
There is no pic on page 122. You must have typoed the page number?
Yeah, my bad. It's 112. Shows a guy holding a pistol and a target with a happy face blown out.
What about the old scroll with the circuit board drawing on it? Is there any reference to it in canon...ever?
That logo is one of the major things that made me originally pick up the core book.
That logo is one of the major things that made me originally pick up the core book.
Does anyone have a high definition JPEG of the old SR emblem, the one with the skull in it? Or just the "S" with the celtic knot in the bottom of the S?
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