Full Version: Prime Runner vs. Gutter Runner
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| SR3 is valid as of circa 2060-65, but as of 2070, the rules have changed. |
Well then, in two hundred years when my campaigns reach 2070, I'll reconsider SR4.
| QUOTE |
| However, I do have a SR3 example. A mundane is someone with Magic 0 and an Awakened is someone who has Magic > 0. Yes? So Joe Mundane has Magic 0. One fine day during 2061, he SURGEs and gains Astral Sight! His Magic is now 1. |
But he does not Assense as a Mage, Shaman, or Adept any more than he did before, because he did not become one.
Konsaki: there's a difference between being awakened from birth and being consciously awakened from birth. I do not remember anything indicating that the former does not always occur, merely that the latter often does not.
~J
But he becomes Awakened. Remember 1% is of all Awakened population, not just Mage, Shaman or Adept.
You know, that's right. I hadn't thought about it that way. That means Ghouls and Vampires, etc. are also included in that statistic.
I will have to come back to this discussion later. Thinking must be done.
~J
I will have to come back to this discussion later. Thinking must be done.
~J
| QUOTE |
| SR4 aside, nothing states that you HAVE to be awakened from birth. It just says that you cant LEARN how to cast spells if you dont have the gift. I could see someone having a dormant ability and having it unlock at puberty or during a lifethreatening situation. |
Which IIRC is basically what happens. I also seem to recall a blurb in Awakenings about mages being able to detect someones magical potential before they awaken.
EDIT-Forgot the quote. I also don't believe SURGE or HMVV figures into the 1%.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| You know, that's right. I hadn't thought about it that way. That means Ghouls and Vampires, etc. are also included in that statistic. |
And let's not forget social adepts, and that crazy artist guy from that horrible novel where they had cybered ghouls and vampires. He was awakened, and made him an extraordinairy artist (sculptures, iirc.) They're not all spell-slingers.
| QUOTE (DV8) | ||
And let's not forget social adepts, and that crazy artist guy from that horrible novel where they had cybered ghouls and vampires. He was awakened, and made him an extraordinairy artist (sculptures, iirc.) They're not all spell-slingers. |
Terminus Experiment. Wonder what happened to Wake...
| QUOTE (DV8) |
| And let's not forget social adepts |
Let's.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Let's. |
Oh, you're no fun.
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||||
Oh, you're no fun. |
Just wish we could break them (in the real life sense) to the same degree that they are broken
I like starting as a gutter runner working your way to prime. I also like magic so I see myself playing some kind of mage.
One of the things I like about my current game is that we started as a gutter group and worked our way up to prime saw something way over our heads and ended up having to leave our old stomping grounds of Seattle and relocated to England with new IDs.
So know we are starting at the bottom again with some nice toys and a lot more power.
One of the things I like about my current game is that we started as a gutter group and worked our way up to prime saw something way over our heads and ended up having to leave our old stomping grounds of Seattle and relocated to England with new IDs.
So know we are starting at the bottom again with some nice toys and a lot more power.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Let's. |
Is your beef with the mechanics or with the concept of it?
Both. I dislike the concept both because it feels wrong to me for reasons I can't properly explain (subjective, obviously) and because a social adept either needs to be not very social-adept at all (nearly-useless or only mildly useful social powers, on par with Astral Sight or less powerful) or will make mundane Faces essentially obsolete.
Note that the latter is concept as well—if it's impossible to make good mechanics for something, that is (IMO) a problem with the concept rather than the mechanics.
~J
Note that the latter is concept as well—if it's impossible to make good mechanics for something, that is (IMO) a problem with the concept rather than the mechanics.
~J
I'm with Kage on this one. I've banned "social adepts" from my games, on the basis that they render all fixers, professional negotiators, mundane faces, etc. pointless and obsolete.
| QUOTE (DV8) |
| Is your beef with the mechanics or with the concept of it? |
Yes!
So what about troubadours then?
See my problem is that the mechanics make them overly powerful. No regular face would stand a chance. SR4 balances it some what by capping the skill,s but there's still things that the adept can do that no mundane could, which can be problematic.
That being said, I don't think ti has to be fair, and I allow them. Magic is an edge, just like cyber. It should be able to do things mundanes cant'. That's the point of it. But it can be abused really easily. In our group, we have a sort of gentlemen's agreement I guess you could say, not to use and abuse it overly. Kind of a MAD thing.
See my problem is that the mechanics make them overly powerful. No regular face would stand a chance. SR4 balances it some what by capping the skill,s but there's still things that the adept can do that no mundane could, which can be problematic.
That being said, I don't think ti has to be fair, and I allow them. Magic is an edge, just like cyber. It should be able to do things mundanes cant'. That's the point of it. But it can be abused really easily. In our group, we have a sort of gentlemen's agreement I guess you could say, not to use and abuse it overly. Kind of a MAD thing.
I liked ki-ads when they were combat monsters, ninjas and superior athlethics. I don't like the idea that they can improve every fucking skill with their magic and thus don't allow social or technical adepts in my games.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| But it can be abused really easily. In our group, we have a sort of gentlemen's agreement I guess you could say, not to use and abuse it overly. |
And that's the problem. When you need a gentleman's agreement not to abuse something, it is broken. Consider the situation whereby the game is played RAW like in a tournament/convention setting, where no such gentleman's agreement can exist.
I'm not saying that it can't be a problem. that's one of the reasons I don't play those types of games (that and I've never been to a conventian 
). It most certainly can be. But one of the things that I happen to like about shadowrun is that it isn't necessarily all fair and balanced. I guess for me, it just isn't an issue. I like that it can be lopsided both for and against players. That's why folks get augmented after all. Goes back to that whole "is an unaugmented mundane viable?" yes, it's just really damn hard. I'm not saying that I'm "right" or trying to argue. just a personal preference.
). It most certainly can be. But one of the things that I happen to like about shadowrun is that it isn't necessarily all fair and balanced. I guess for me, it just isn't an issue. I like that it can be lopsided both for and against players. That's why folks get augmented after all. Goes back to that whole "is an unaugmented mundane viable?" yes, it's just really damn hard. I'm not saying that I'm "right" or trying to argue. just a personal preference.
Really interesting point of view, especially the part about getting augmentations, thus making the game "unfair" for mundane guys.
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 14 2006, 04:22 PM) |
| And that's the problem. When you need a gentleman's agreement not to abuse something, it is broken. Consider the situation whereby the game is played RAW like in a tournament/convention setting, where no such gentleman's agreement can exist. |
I think it's a laughable goal to think that any RPG, system- or story-wise, will ever reach the level of "standardization" that seems to be some people's fantasy.
I don't say that because I think you should stop trying, or that the idea is "bad". I say that because when anything is being interpreted by humans/people/meat popsicles, you will find myriad variations in the way that it is interpreted. Even in cases where people spend hours/days/weeks trying to come up with a way to word something so that it "can't be misinterpreted", somebody will read it in a way that doesn't match the original author/creator's intent.
And there's not a "gentleman's agreement" at con games? You could have fooled me. There's as much strife going on, it's just that people don't voice it at the table because it's such a limited atmosphere anyway. Just look at threads (here and elsewhere) that pop up after a major con, discussing how the GM didn't "understand" (read: interpret the same way you do) such and such rule, how a player didn't use a piece of gear the "right" way, etc. So much for everyone having been playing by canon rules.
Heck, I got to play in a (very short) demo of SR4 at a gathering here, recently, that was run by one of the Fanpro Gencon GM's, and when I said "I look at the astral" he asked me to roll to assense. Point is, there is no standard way to play, only the standard way that your group (or even a group of total strangers) has agreed upon.
So yeah, fix broken rules. Clarify wording where you can. But don't waste time talking/thinking about reaching the unattainable goal of standardization nirvana, please. Besides, how boring it would be to know that every game of SR you play will be...the same.
Meh. My .02
The thing that really breaks Social Adepts is that everything stacks.
Improved Attribute + Improved Ability + Kinesics + Commanding Voice + Cool Resolve + you can throw Tailored Pheromones on top. You could even chuck Enthralling Performance into the mix. And the Dog forbid that our hero is actually a Mystic Adept, with all the stackable Spell effects added in.
Improved Attribute + Improved Ability + Kinesics + Commanding Voice + Cool Resolve + you can throw Tailored Pheromones on top. You could even chuck Enthralling Performance into the mix. And the Dog forbid that our hero is actually a Mystic Adept, with all the stackable Spell effects added in.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| But don't waste time talking/thinking about reaching the unattainable goal of standardization nirvana, please. |
I honestly don't believe that was what I was doing. My main point was to bitch about how broken Social Adepts are, especially when played according to the canon rules.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| I say that because when anything is being interpreted by humans/people/meat popsicles, you will find myriad variations in the way that it is interpreted. Even in cases where people spend hours/days/weeks trying to come up with a way to word something so that it "can't be misinterpreted", somebody will read it in a way that doesn't match the original author/creator's intent. |
Write the rules in Lojban.
~J
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 14 2006, 05:23 PM) |
| I honestly don't believe that was what I was doing. My main point was to bitch about how broken Social Adepts are, especially when played according to the canon rules. |
Neither do I, really. Your post just got me thinking again on the (seemingly rather recent, but maybe I'm just recently noticing it) whole idea that somehow, there has to be some kind of common "meta-consensus" on how to play a game in order for it to be enjoyable.
The last time I checked, there are only 2-6 people (generally) that need to agree on everything in order for the game to work and be fun. And again, even then you're never (or very rarely) going to get real agreement on it all. More likely is compromise, either external or internal, group or individual, in order for the game to work and go forward at all.
The bit about the con usage of canon rules is a perfect example of people compromising their own ideas and thoughts in order to make a game work. Just because everyone is suppressing their dislikes and disagreements in order to keep the game going smoothly doesn't mean that the game is being played by the book according to every participant.
But yeah, overall my response was less direct response to your post and more general response to a notion that I notice more and more frequently lately.
And yes, social adepts are ridiculous and have no place in the game.
@ Kage
New one on me. After about 53 seconds of intense research, I laugh at the notion that a constructed language will somehow remove, as they say, "ambiguity from human communication". Bwaha. Bwahaha. Hahaha.
You laugh now!
You'll probably laugh later, but do it now, too.
~J
You'll probably laugh later, but do it now, too.
~J
The problem with prime runners is that ultimately they require really powerful and voluminous opposition which burns out my puny organic GM RAM chips.
It's much easier when the power levels are all around lower, I think.
It's much easier when the power levels are all around lower, I think.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| The thing that really breaks Social Adepts is that everything stacks. Improved Attribute + Improved Ability + Kinesics + Commanding Voice + Cool Resolve + you can throw Tailored Pheromones on top. You could even chuck Enthralling Performance into the mix. And the Dog forbid that our hero is actually a Mystic Adept, with all the stackable Spell effects added in. |
That person simply wouldn't do a hell of a lot of business for very long. He will get the upperhand in every situation, negotiate more money than the fixer can pay, and pretty soon his business will dry up. The cost of being too good.
Assuming that he doesn't have the Logic and Intuition to use some moderation to forestall such an eventuality.
| QUOTE (DV8) |
| That person simply wouldn't do a hell of a lot of business for very long. He will get the upperhand in every situation, negotiate more money than the fixer can pay, and pretty soon his business will dry up. The cost of being too good. |
Please tell me you aren't serious.
~J
Please tell me why you think I shouldn't be, Kage? I value and respect your insights, but I think you're lacking in your creativity when it comes to feedback.
Social Adept: "Hey, business is slow. Hook me up with all your fixer friends and I'll be your bestest bud."
*Some dierolls later*
Fixer: "Here's my contact list, have fun!"
Exaggerated for effect, but without being actively and severely shortsighted a social adept proficient enough to drive his fixer anywhere near bankruptcy ought to be able to traverse that fixer's entire FoaF network to find jobs. The situation you describe, IMO, would require the social adept to bankrupt the entire shadow-economy, hence my reaction.
~J
*Some dierolls later*
Fixer: "Here's my contact list, have fun!"
Exaggerated for effect, but without being actively and severely shortsighted a social adept proficient enough to drive his fixer anywhere near bankruptcy ought to be able to traverse that fixer's entire FoaF network to find jobs. The situation you describe, IMO, would require the social adept to bankrupt the entire shadow-economy, hence my reaction.
~J
I just don't see how that would be the case, to be honest. That social adept would move through the shadows like a virus, and his reputation will start to precede him. He will find few people willing to work with him, and unless I'm mistaken, smooth-talking, no matter how good you are, magically augmented or not, won't get you inside when people know you're nothing but trouble.
Now, to be honest, I've only had one social adept in my game, and I had a very responsible player, and on top of that, I haven't playtested SR4 yet, so perhaps things are severely borked in the new version.
Isn't there such a thing as spell-shielding that could protect someone sitting across the table from a social adept?
Now, to be honest, I've only had one social adept in my game, and I had a very responsible player, and on top of that, I haven't playtested SR4 yet, so perhaps things are severely borked in the new version.
Isn't there such a thing as spell-shielding that could protect someone sitting across the table from a social adept?
His reputation for being so great that people just want to pay him more. I'm really not seeing how the ultimate sweet-talker is, short of (again) over-the-top shortsightedness, going to develop a bad reputation. Even if he does, people are going to have to refuse to even speak with him, otherwise they'll find their misgivings melting away.
I haven't done much with SR4 either, but in SR3 I'm almost positive there was no counter to social-adeptness other than conducting all negotiations remotely (only a partial fix) or countering with another social adept.
~J
I haven't done much with SR4 either, but in SR3 I'm almost positive there was no counter to social-adeptness other than conducting all negotiations remotely (only a partial fix) or countering with another social adept.
~J
I think DV8's POV is that eventually the Social Adept's rep will outstrip his Cha/skill/ability to socialise. But Kage is saying that if he is really that good, his skill will either keep up with his rep or stay ahead so much so that it doesn't matter. Either of these scenarios are possible within the game mechanics. The key factor in the equation is the GM. There is enough fudge factors in the rep/street cred/etc system that if the GM so decides, he can tilt the balance either way. But I think at least for the more concrete SR3 system, it is much more possible that the social adept gets away with it, unless the GM rules that each time he gets ahead in a bargain he earns a point of Notoriety.
Kage, you are right. By canon a SR3 the only way a social adept can be neutralised by a non adept is to conduct negotiations through the Matrix VR. In that arena, by canon, the adept's powers don't work(Matrix Social Skill Modifiers p 126 Matrix). So propose the meet at a link club.
Kage, you are right. By canon a SR3 the only way a social adept can be neutralised by a non adept is to conduct negotiations through the Matrix VR. In that arena, by canon, the adept's powers don't work(Matrix Social Skill Modifiers p 126 Matrix). So propose the meet at a link club.
That's all assuming that he doesn't retire with his 'great and overwhelming success'. If he still wants to work, and DV8's scenario came to pass, he always has the option of dumping his ID and starting all over again. Even if he begins anew in a totally different locale, knowing absolutely nobody, he will still be hooked up in no time, and with no previous 'rep' to hinder his silver tongue.
Magical sweet-talking physads sound more like something out of a Br'er Rabbit story than something out of cyberpunk. If we were playing Br'er Rabbit I'd be all for it, as long as the sweet-talking physad got a +2 TN penalty to "Resist Backwater Torture And Lynching" rolls at the end of each story.
My gut feeling is that pumping up social adepts was an ill-considered snap reaction towards the conventional wisdom that you want to promote "role playing" and "character interaction" in games moreso than "power gaming". But becuase of the obvious flaws that people have pointed out in this thread I think that the social adepts were put in with too little thought to make them work with the rest of the game.
My gut feeling is that pumping up social adepts was an ill-considered snap reaction towards the conventional wisdom that you want to promote "role playing" and "character interaction" in games moreso than "power gaming". But becuase of the obvious flaws that people have pointed out in this thread I think that the social adepts were put in with too little thought to make them work with the rest of the game.
The social adept will get the greatest amount Mr. J is willing to shell out for a social networker. Not all the money Mr. J has. He will get more information than anyone else, due to his "needs" being well-defended. However, any J. will fix an amount beforehand and not negotiate that at all. They WILL know his abilities after all.
Concerning the topic, he will in a "realistic" environment facilitate a fast advance from gutter runner to accepted professional for the whole team. My group does not have a face, and it´s speed of advancement depends mostly on the independant actions of the rigger on the smuggling market. He is the only one who does not want close ties to the mafia and is trying to get other work.
Concerning the topic, he will in a "realistic" environment facilitate a fast advance from gutter runner to accepted professional for the whole team. My group does not have a face, and it´s speed of advancement depends mostly on the independant actions of the rigger on the smuggling market. He is the only one who does not want close ties to the mafia and is trying to get other work.
My personal play style favours the cyber, but the majority of my group favour mana. We usually start in the gutters and work our way up...its more satisfying.
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