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DV8
There are many different ways you can play your game. The two largest distincting lines are mana- vs cyberpunk and prime- vs gutterrunners. I'm getting increasingly frustrated by my own dissociation with most others on this board regarding game-style. Perhaps I don't get it. Perhaps I'm missing something. Or perhaps I'm merely dissociated from a vocal minority.

I just want to be well-liked! wink.gif (And know how you guys do it.)
Ophis
I mix and match, Mostly my campaigns run for a long time so players end up Prime, mana/cyber depends on my mood for each campaign and or session.
Sicarius
i picked gutter runner/cyber. because that's how my players usually start. They may work their way up to prime runner status, if they last that long. picking Cyber over Mana punk isn't necessarily my preference so much as my players. They often go with teams without any mages or even adepts. they just prefer the feel of cyber i guess. so because they prefer the mundane, the campaign focuses that way, with only the occasional super villian being awakened.
Ryu
I voted gutter runner/manapunk.

I dislike prime runner campaigns due to the amount of planning necessary. Easier jobs make for more actual roleplaying. Might be my group though.

I voted manapunk despite not demanding a team mage - neither as player nor as GM. There is no emphasis on magic, but it is definitly present.


Care to elaborate your dissonance? What are you missing?
Dog
I prefer to play prime runners, probably because I see too much gritty street-life in the real world already. But most of my fellow-players right now prefer gutterpunk, so I accomodate them. Definitely more mana-based, since we generally aren't techno-savvy types.
Kagetenshi
Gutterprime.

(Powerful, capable runners without arbitrary resources at their disposal.)

~J
DragginSPADE
I voted Gutter Manapunk. My preferred play style is long campaigns, where fairly inexperienced starting characters try to claw their way to the top. And Manapunk since most campaigns I've been in have been fairly heavy on the mojo.

EDIT: Hmm, I'm a moving target now, apparently. I take it that's some kind of reference to how many posts I've made?
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (DragginSPADE)
My preferred play style is long campaigns, where fairly inexperienced starting characters try to claw their way to the top.


THat
QUOTE
Powerful, capable runners without arbitrary resources at their disposal


That


QUOTE
I mix and match, Mostly my campaigns run for a long time so players end up Prime, mana/cyber depends on my mood for each campaign and or session.

And that

QUOTE
EDIT: Hmm, I'm a moving target now, apparently.  I take it that's some kind of reference to how many posts I've made?

Yep smile.gif
Grinder
Second that. smile.gif
Dawnshadow
Prime runner.

Cyber or Mana. I've played both. Run into the disadvantages of both too.
Draconis
Gutterprime Cybermanapunk.
Kyoto Kid
...Yeah, with us it's usually Mix & Match too, but occasionally with a twist, at least in some of the characters I've ran. These would include an adventure minded (& rather bored with daily life) heiress, a free lance reporter, a "retired" military doctor, a former baseball player, a professional boxer, and a kid genius musician.
Glyph
I like prime runners (not the best of the best, but seasoned pros), although I prefer campaigns that also keep a gritty feel. Too many people making a runner will make someone with no real reason to run the shadows - they need to be blacklisted from their old profession, addicted to adrenaline, driven by ideals of social justice, something! The problem with low-powered characters is that typically, they don't have as wide a range of possible enemies or missions to do, and they often have a dreary sameness due to everyone getting the "essential" skills and not having much left to do anything else with.

I guess I am between the two extremes, as I don't usually like playing some loser picking the back lock of Bob's Bar & Grill, but I don't like playing complicated infiltration scenarios that take forever to plan out, either. I like runners who have been doing this for awhile, who aren't prime runners yet, but could be eventually.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Ophis)
I mix and match, Mostly my campaigns run for a long time so players end up Prime, mana/cyber depends on my mood for each campaign and or session.

That's about right, a mix of cyber and manna but I said mana because I favor spell slingers.

We also prefer prime runners. this is the top flight playing with the big boys. The James Bond/Dr Who/Leathal Weapon deals.
emo samurai
I'm all about magical warfare.
Ryu
QUOTE (Glyph)
The problem with low-powered characters is that typically, they don't have as wide a range of possible enemies or missions to do, and they often have a dreary sameness due to everyone getting the "essential" skills and not having much left to do anything else with.


The difference between gutter runners and prime runners is not really in the numbers, but in the campaign. My runners are quite capable, they are certainly stronger than gangers, even the non-combat types. What makes them gutter runners is that they are neither equipped nor even hired for runs upon AzTech HQ. They have a limited reputation in the corp world (They are currently in contact with only one corp Johnson, having worked up their way from mafia jobs. They worked twice for the New Templars, once against AzTech interests). The range of enemies and friends is very broad.

What makes them gutter runners is the quality of their connections and the amount of money available for toys. And the selection of real targets they can beat. When I started playing SR, our usual strategy was half the samurai waiting for the FRT outside. Those days are gone.
DV8
QUOTE (Ryu)
Care to elaborate your dissonance? What are you missing?

Well, let me get to that in a bit. First, let me show, for those that haven't voted, or didn't bother to look, what the results were so far;

CODE
Prime Runner / Manapunk            [ 7 ] [22.58%]
Prime Runner / Cyberpunk           [ 4 ] [12.90%]
Gutter Runner / Manapunk           [ 3 ] [ 9.68%]
Gutter Runner / Cyberpunk          [ 9 ] [29.03%]
Mix and match (elaborate, please). [ 8 ] [25.81%]


Now, personally, I enjoy long campaigns, with several plots, seemingly dissociated events, and pretty heavy on the character vs character and character vs npc interaction. (Sounds a bit pompous, and I apologise for that. I'm not an elitist, to each his own.) This is my flavour of game-play, and I know that lots of people work with pre-made characters, or play in very tactical games, or enjoy playing top-end runners, and while these people might not be the majority, they are perhaps a very vocal minority, which gave me the impression that I was the only one to play a radically different game than some.

We see that manapunk is hot among people who play a high-end game, while cyberpunk is hot among those who play a low-end game. Personally, I think that magic is poorly implemented. No, let me rephrase that; I think the way magic is regarded in canon Shadowrun is very plastic, very overdone, and without any sense of mysticism left. There are university and research-groups that are bordering on the clinical and dispassionate, while I always saw magic as anything but.

In another thread people were asked what their favourite piece of Shadowrun-art was, and someone mentioned one of Timothy Bradstreet's works, of a streetmage painting an arcane circle in an alley. When I saw this picture, years ago, something clicked within me, and I realised I wouldn't want magic to be widespread, or well-known, or well-researched, or well-trusted, or well-documented...I wanted it mystical. This streetmage, squatting down and painting that cirlce with such nonchalant arrogance showed me that he had power that I would never comprehend, and something that he couldn't put into words I'd understand, because I'm a sleeper.

Just like it irks me that in canon Shadowrun every shadowrunner has a shoe-endorsement and that there are shadowrunner television shows, and the simple notion that "shadowrun" is a commonly understood phrase in 2060, just so does it irk me to think that everyone could be textbook-knowledgable about magic. And manapunk Shadowrun encourages that. So I wouldn't call myself a manapunk-player, but I can't say that it's pure cyberpunk either, but it does lean in that direction. I think magic, in its mystical and near-mythical form can most assuredly be incorporated in the grittiness of cyberpunk, just like it incorporated brilliantly in the interbellum-period television-show Carnivāle.

Then we get to the other question, Prime vs Gutter? Both have its appeal, but when you play the prime runner story, you - or at least, I - get the urge to start playing an unrealistic game. Let's face it, most of us can't fathom what it must be like to operate on the level of a prime runner. We can't think that high. We can't possibly imagine the intricacies and intrigue at that level. But gutter-reality, while still hard, is easier for us to imagine, because everything that happens in a gutter-punk game is founded on simple human urges like survival. Prime-punk games are founded on complex human urges; power. As soon as I, as a GM, cross the boundary where my players are no longer playing for survival but for power, it becomes such an entirely different ball-game, and I often look back on campaigns that have gone past and chuckle at how unrealistic they became. So I tend to stay on the gutter side of the equation, some longer living players pulling themselves out of the slums. But as soon as they start to earn real cred, real rep, then it becomes so incredibly complicated.

The most important and difficult thing you need to think about when a runner becomes of a certain grade is that he's going to start attracting attention. Some attention is wanted (potential employers, potential business associates), but most of the attention is going to come from exposure and there's no amount of fake SINs you can purchase that you're going to keep the heat off your back. Pretty soon a runner will be more busy covering his tracks then he is busy grafting. Besides that, nobody would want to work with a runner that's too well known, it'll be impossible to not get caught with someone as high profile (relatively speaking) as that.

A runner will have to start maintaining a few fake IDs. He'll have to start renting several apartments, and making sure that they are run like regular households. They'll have to recieve grocery-deliveries, and have an particular energy consumption, because an empty apartment with no movement surrounding it is going to draw suspicion. A runner could pay a neighbour off and get them to make all the daily purchases, and make sure the mail is picked up and the bills are paid, but that would mean involving yet another person in your little scam...and nobody wants that.

Anyway, I can go on ranting and raving like that for a while, waxing psuedo-intellectually about the intricacies of maintaining multiple identities in a high information-density, totalitarian and paranoid state, but nobody is waiting for that. The bottom line is that I want my games to be realistic. Whether it's because I don't think that in 50 years people can start to comprehend the depth of magic, and therefore it should still be considered too complex for the normal man to comprehend (sort of like quantum- or string-theory nowadays), or the depth of trouble one can get into a shadowrunner if too many people know your name.
Kyoto Kid
...DV8

Too bad you do not live in Portland. I love Writing up and running long involved campaigns and am looking for players to participate in a second run through of my Rhapsody Arc (SR3)
Fortune
I just don't see how it's more realistic to have 'long campaigns with several plots', and yet still keep the gutter feel all the way through. Things tend to chaange and grow, either because of character development or their eventual actions.
Grinder
Yeah, being the powerless pawn who has no clue what's really happening can't be much fun over the course of a whole long campaign.
FlakJacket
Voted Gutter Runner/Cyberpunk since that best matches my favoured gameworld, although I probably fall more into Guter Mana/Cyberpunk since I like something inbetween the two. Well my favourite PC types are adepts, followed shortly after by deckers. smile.gif

QUOTE (DV8)
Just like it irks me that in canon Shadowrun every shadowrunner has a shoe-endorsement and that there are shadowrunner television shows, and the simple notion that "shadowrun" is a commonly understood phrase in 2060, just so does it irk me to think that everyone could be textbook-knowledgable about magic.

Gods, always with the show endorsements with you isn't it? wink.gif

Tziluthi
QUOTE (DV8)
In another thread people were asked what their favourite piece of Shadowrun-art was, and someone mentioned one of Timothy Bradstreet's works, of a streetmage painting an arcane circle in an alley. When I saw this picture, years ago, something clicked within me, and I realised I wouldn't want magic to be widespread, or well-known, or well-researched, or well-trusted, or well-documented...I wanted it mystical. This streetmage, squatting down and painting that cirlce with such nonchalant arrogance showed me that he had power that I would never comprehend, and something that he couldn't put into words I'd understand, because I'm a sleeper.

You read the writing on the paint can, right? Otherwise I completely agree with you. Magic too well understood and too widespread can effectively ruin the cyberpunk setting.
Fortune
I like the writing on the can. I like the fact that all the various small, and sometimes seemingly incongruous individual elements combine to make the whole a more compelling image.
eidolon
You're not alone at all DV8. Not alone at all.
adamu
I wrote mix and match, and it says to elaborate, so...

I love the gutter runner thing, the claw your way up through adversity angle, the "getting shot at or seeing magic is still scary" thing. But I think that diligent play of a character for a period of several years should be rewarded by a slow march toward prime runnerdom - I despise the shift SR took from 3rd edition, where they continued to write novels about prime runners and present giant, world-spanning threats, but the rules and the tone of the designers basically spit on anyone more powerful than a ganger as an evil powergamer.

I prefer manapunk - otherwise I would play Cyberpunk instead of Shadowrun. That said, I think magic should be kept rare enough in SR to be remarkable and scary when it does come up.
emo samurai
Well, it's scary, but not remarkable.
toturi
QUOTE (adamu)
I love the gutter runner thing, the claw your way up through adversity angle, the "getting shot at or seeing magic is still scary" thing. But I think that diligent play of a character for a period of several years should be rewarded by a slow march toward prime runnerdom - I despise the shift SR took from 3rd edition, where they continued to write novels about prime runners and present giant, world-spanning threats, but the rules and the tone of the designers basically spit on anyone more powerful than a ganger as an evil powergamer.

The rules never make any judgements on the characters created, I think that neither the tone of the rules nor the writers "spit on anyone more powerful than a ganger as an evil powergamer". In fact, I think the novels are a good way to show that players the level of power that is available just out of character generation or with karma gained after some runs. The problem is that some GMs that have problems with that.
DV8
QUOTE (Fortune)
I just don't see how it's more realistic to have 'long campaigns with several plots', and yet still keep the gutter feel all the way through. Things tend to chaange and grow, either because of character development or their eventual actions.

QUOTE (Grinder)
Yeah, being the powerless pawn who has no clue what's really happening can't be much fun over the course of a whole long campaign.

Naturally there has to be some progression, and eventually, even in my campaigns runners do out-grow their neighbourhoods. Sadly, however, and this is probably just a failing of my own, though I have noticed similar failings in many other campaigns not run by me, the stories simply lose credibility.

Also, I don't advocate ever making characters powerless pawns. You'll end up railroading your players, and I have yet to meet a player who likes the inability to make decisions. smile.gif

QUOTE (FlakJacket)
QUOTE (DV8)
Just like it irks me that in canon Shadowrun every shadowrunner has a shoe-endorsement and that there are shadowrunner television shows, and the simple notion that "shadowrun" is a commonly understood phrase in 2060, just so does it irk me to think that everyone could be textbook-knowledgable about magic.

Gods, always with the show endorsements with you isn't it? wink.gif

Well, you of all people most know by now how strongly I feel about that issue. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Tziluthi)
You read the writing on the paint can, right? Otherwise I completely agree with you. Magic too well understood and too widespread can effectively ruin the cyberpunk setting.

I must admit that I hadn't before spotted that. Hmmm, I don't know how I feel about that. I'm inclined to think it's Bradstreet's way of joking around, considering his use of the "Acme" brand, though if it's not, the picture does lose some of its quality. Nicely spotted, by the way. smile.gif

QUOTE (eidolon)
You're not alone at all DV8.  Not alone at all.

That's good to hear. I was looking for confirmation like that when I first started writing the post.

QUOTE (toturi)
The problem is that some GMs that have problems with that.

I fully agree, and admit, that I am a GM who likes to keep it a bit smaller in a worldly scope, and find it difficult to deal with a scope like the ones portrayed in many Shadowrun novels. On the one hand it's because many of my players don't want to play a game in which they're responsible for saving the world (or anything significant), and on the other hand because I simply can't seem to keep a story believable and realistic beyond a certain scope, and those are two elements I value dearly.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (adamu)
the rules and the tone of the designers basically spit on anyone more powerful than a ganger as an evil powergamer.

Elaborate, please? How did they do this?

~J
toturi
QUOTE (DV8 @ Nov 10 2006, 06:09 PM)
QUOTE (toturi)
The problem is that some GMs that have problems with that.

I fully agree, and admit, that I am a GM who likes to keep it a bit smaller in a worldly scope, and find it difficult to deal with a scope like the ones portrayed in many Shadowrun novels. On the one hand it's because many of my players don't want to play a game in which they're responsible for saving the world (or anything significant), and on the other hand because I simply can't seem to keep a story believable and realistic beyond a certain scope, and those are two elements I value dearly.

There are many SR novels that are not "save the world" or campaigns of similar scope. There are some that are, but I chalk that up to what a good runner is able to achieve.

For example, many people diss Ryan Mercury books, but consider that in those books, the Asset mages tend to drop like flies, it should highlight the fact that if you are not really(like double digit initiated) good enough (or min-maxed enough), you will die when you mess with the big boys. There are 2 other (IMO) min-maxed characters but due to the way the book is written, they do not appear that way. I am talking about Wolf and Kid Stealth. A wolf shapeshifter Wolf shaman - hello... powergamer! Cyber-almost-zombie-no-social-skills-low-Cha Kid Stealth - sounds like any powergamed PC we are familiar with? But do I hear many people dissing Wolf and Raven?

If my players bite into the "Save the world" plothook, then they either be ready and able or know better and walk away or die. They can choose to keep to their safe gutter, or bite into the big time. If they elect to play with the big boys, well, they better be ready. I am not going to pull any punches, that is how I keep my campaigns believable and realistic. If you aren't good enough to save the world, well the world is doomed. Sucks to be the world.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (DV8)
We see that manapunk is hot among people who play a high-end game, while cyberpunk is hot among those who play a low-end game. Personally, I think that magic is poorly implemented. No, let me rephrase that; I think the way magic is regarded in canon Shadowrun is very plastic, very overdone, and without any sense of mysticism left. There are university and research-groups that are bordering on the clinical and dispassionate, while I always saw magic as anything but.

In another thread people were asked what their favourite piece of Shadowrun-art was, and someone mentioned one of Timothy Bradstreet's works, of a streetmage painting an arcane circle in an alley. When I saw this picture, years ago, something clicked within me, and I realised I wouldn't want magic to be widespread, or well-known, or well-researched, or well-trusted, or well-documented...I wanted it mystical. This streetmage, squatting down and painting that cirlce with such nonchalant arrogance showed me that he had power that I would never comprehend, and something that he couldn't put into words I'd understand, because I'm a sleeper.

I always play with a strong mysticism in magic, even hermetic magic. I hope that carried through in the writing I did for Street Magic. I don't necessarily think that goes against the idea that there are people who study magic in academic settings. Whenever I think about magical studies in an academic setting, I think about the time I wandered through the Astronomy department at my alma mater, Cornell University. To me, what they were doing in there was mystical. I could only understand the very basics of the whiteboards full of equations, the digital photography displaying different spectrums of information, and the conversations between professors and graduate students. I was awed by it all, and I could tell they were too, even though they discussed it with a scientific bend.
Paul
QUOTE (Fortune)
I just don't see how it's more realistic to have 'long campaigns with several plots', and yet still keep the gutter feel all the way through. Things tend to change and grow, either because of character development or their eventual actions.

Ah but not all change is positive, and not all progress is forward. Real life has it's ups and downs, which I think is what Deev is talking about. Success isn't always a major success either. Sometimes success can be as simple as survival, or as complex as you'd like.

Your point of view sounds a lot, to me, like a players perspective. "I always want to be moving forward." Since none of us posting to this board, that I know of, are millionaires I think we can all understand that one fo the challenges of real life is we don't always succeed.

So yeah things change, and they grow-but that growth doesn't have to be contrived, or forced either. In fact it shouldn't be forced.
Ryu
I would not call it realistic if SR did not have academical programs for magic 50+ years after the awakening. If you recall "who hunts the hunter", those magical study groups can pull off stuff conventional researchers would be fired for. In my opinion, manapunk as you call it stresses the mystical aspect because anything the magician believes can be real. My players did NOT laugh after a ganger pointed a hair dryer at them (blast spell focus). Expect the unexpected. I found that magicians stop doing the initiation race if they rarely encounter strong magical security. The players seem to prefer buying more skills and spells so far (Therefore they take steps their characters would take. I once had to experience the abomination of a degree 8 initiate with as much as 10 spells).

Iīve experienced the arms race before and aim to avoid it this time. My runners will leave their neighborhood for many a run, but it will remain their safe heaven, the one place where the criminal powers-to-be know their occupation and provide cover for a fee.

Most campaign loose their grip on reality when the samurai go shopping with full combat gear and get away with it. And thats independed of power level.
toturi
QUOTE (Ryu)
Most campaign loose their grip on reality when the samurai go shopping with full combat gear and get away with it. And thats independed of power level.

Not really true. Samurai can go shopping for full combat gear but if he has good cover(ie a good face and hacker/otaku pal) he can get away with it.
Fortune
QUOTE (Paul)
Ah but not all change is positive, and not all progress is forward. Real life has it's ups and downs, which I think is what Deev is talking about. Success isn't always a major success either. Sometimes success can be as simple as survival, or as complex as you'd like.

Your point of view sounds a lot, to me, like a players perspective. "I always want to be moving forward." Since none of us posting to this board, that I know of, are millionaires I think we can all understand that one fo the challenges of real life is we don't always succeed.

So yeah things change, and they grow-but that growth doesn't have to be contrived, or forced either. In fact it shouldn't be forced.

I think it's funny how much extra crap you read into my brief post. I only referred to change (and did not define it in any way), not upward mobility or accumulating power or the like.
Paul
QUOTE (Fortune)
I think it's funny how much extra crap you read into my brief post.

I don't think it's crap, nor do I mean to make you think your somehow wrong or especially deserving of reprimand. I simply stated my opinions. Feel free to disregard them if they don't help your game become a better, more fun game.

QUOTE
I only referred to change (and did not define it in any way), not upward mobility or accumulating power or the like.


Well I guess I don't really care how you'd define it, I wanted to discuss it so I did. Try not to be so thin skinned. It's unbecoming.
Ryu
@tutori: Shopping for combat gear is possible, yes. Common even. Maybe I should have said "in full combat gear". My mistake. What I mean is the characters never leaving their car without their essential running equipment. Not leaving their home without, ok. God didnīt make man invent the cars trunk for nothing. But both "essential" and "never without" can go pretty far.
toturi
QUOTE (Ryu)
@tutori: Shopping for combat gear is possible, yes. Common even. Maybe I should have said "in full combat gear". My mistake. What I mean is the characters never leaving their car without their essential running equipment. Not leaving their home without, ok. God didnīt make man invent the cars trunk for nothing. But both "essential" and "never without" can go pretty far.

He can go shopping in full combat gear. It all depends on where. If you are playing SR3, there are rules for that. If it was in SR4, the rules are not as specific, but may be included under "wrong attire" in the Social Modifiers Table. So if he does have a high Cha/Influence Group, well, he gets away with it. That's how the game world functions according to the rules.
Kagetenshi
As for the flavour, Weapons Worlds exist, and so does Vegas.

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Paul @ Nov 11 2006, 12:41 PM)
Well I guess I don't really care how you'd define it, I wanted to discuss it so I did. Try not to be so thin skinned. It's unbecoming.

The tone of your first post seems to be implying that I am too immature to understand that life does not always go from win to win. You misread what I was saying. When I tried to correct that misinterpretation, you tell me you don't care how I define things. Ok.

I will let the matter drop if you do.

I have no problems whatsoever with a discussion of the subject. In fact, that is what I thought we were all here for.

In my opinion, a campaign of any notable duration needs room to breathe ... to grow and change. What I mean is that while the characters may have started as the lowest of the low (or even just normal mid-level runners), their actions will have an effeect on the game world ... and on their own characters as well. They will grow in experience, knowledge, influence, etc. This does not necssaily mean that the campaign has to become world-spanning, containing meetings with Lofwyr every second week. This just means that they should not still be in the exact same situations or positions after a year or two of game time.
Paul
QUOTE (Fortune)
[QUOTE=Paul,Nov 11 2006, 12:41 PM]In my opinion, a campaign of any notable duration needs room to breathe ... to grow and change. What I mean is that while the characters may have started as the lowest of the low (or even just normal mid-level runners), their actions will have an effect on the game world ... and on their own characters as well. They will grow in experience, knowledge, influence, etc. This does not necessarily mean that the campaign has to become world-spanning, containing meetings with Lofwyr every second week. This just means that they should not still be in the exact same situations or positions after a year or two of game time.

On this I think we can both agree!
Fortune
I'm good with that. smile.gif
DV8
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
I always play with a strong mysticism in magic, even hermetic magic. I hope that carried through in the writing I did for Street Magic. I don't necessarily think that goes against the idea that there are people who study magic in academic settings. Whenever I think about magical studies in an academic setting, I think about the time I wandered through the Astronomy department at my alma mater, Cornell University. To me, what they were doing in there was mystical. I could only understand the very basics of the whiteboards full of equations, the digital photography displaying different spectrums of information, and the conversations between professors and graduate students. I was awed by it all, and I could tell they were too, even though they discussed it with a scientific bend.

Oh yeah, that's another way I wouldn't mind going...

QUOTE (DV8)
Whether it's because I don't think that in 50 years people can start to comprehend the depth of magic, and therefore it should still be considered too complex for the normal man to comprehend (sort of like quantum- or string-theory nowadays), or the depth of trouble one can get into a shadowrunner if too many people know your name.

...but still there remain so many unsolved mysteries, unanswered questions, that for the masses it's all deep voodoo, and completely incomprehensible. The difference between the examples of string-theory and Astronomy and magic in the sixth world being that people who are awakened are able to do these amazing things, while they, and certainly many others, just simply don't quite (yet) grasp how it all works. People also forget that according to canon only 1% of the population is awakened, and I can imagine that of those people only an equal amount is aware of it. (I'm sure that opinion will spark some debate. smile.gif ) So if we take today's United States population that would be 3 million people awakened, and only 30.000 that can actually do something with it. In my country (The Netherlands), it would be 160.000 awakened people, with only 1600 people being able to actually do something with it. It's rare.
Kagetenshi
I object to your use of "only" in relation to the absolutely huge number of 1%. I personally like a bit of mysticism around my magic, but I find it almost impossible to justify.

Your "aware of" statement I reject outright, simply because of the incentive for corporations to identify Awakened individuals and the ease of doing so. Never mind parents getting their kids tested, Ares can send a wagemage to show-and-tell at the local elementary school and he can assense the entire class within a few minutes. Hell, I'd imagine for the SINner population, assensing is something done at the hospital in neonatal care.

~J
toturi
Unless it is possible to assess Latent Awakening at elementary school level or even during neonatal care, I do think a sizable portion slip through the net.

But it is not very practical to claim that only 1% of the Awakened population can do something about it. There are a lot of ways that the Awaken can learn spells, to cast and to conjure. I believe that Mentor spirits can help even the spontaneously Awakened to develop their skills.
Kagetenshi
Can I get a page reference for the existence of a "latent awakening" state during which someone will Assense differently than at a later part of their life?

~J
toturi
Kage, what do you call someone without a Magic Attribute? Say it with me, my friend - m-u-n-d-a-n-e biggrin.gif (Do you want a rule quote for that?) .

QUOTE ( SM p25)
Latent Awakening

A character who takes the Latent Awakening quality starts the game as a mundane but may Awaken later and become magically active.


The Assensing Table in SR4 does not have "Positive Qualities" as a Information gained.
Kagetenshi
I cannot continue this discussion, as I do not accept the validity of SR4 or Street Magic.

~J
toturi
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I cannot continue this discussion, as I do not accept the validity of SR4 or Street Magic.

~J

One must keep up with the SOTA. SR3 is valid as of circa 2060-65, but as of 2070, the rules have changed.

However, I do have a SR3 example.

A mundane is someone with Magic 0 and an Awakened is someone who has Magic > 0. Yes? So Joe Mundane has Magic 0. One fine day during 2061, he SURGEs and gains Astral Sight! His Magic is now 1.

Now if Jack Mage were to assess Joe before 2061, what does he see?

If Jack Mage were to assess Joe after 2061? What does he see?
Konsaki
SR4 aside, nothing states that you HAVE to be awakened from birth. It just says that you cant LEARN how to cast spells if you dont have the gift.
I could see someone having a dormant ability and having it unlock at puberty or during a lifethreatening situation.
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