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Serbitar
If you could change not a single game mechanic in SR4, but only the numbers these game mechanics use, which would you change, and why?

Example:
I would change the threshold for braking encryption to 4 x rating from 2 x rating, because this brings decryption threshold back in line with availability thresholds (though both need a rule to resrtict re rolls for extended tests)

Other example:
I would change the damage code of an assault cannon from 10/-5 to 12/-6, because it is not lethal enough at the moment.
Smed
I would change the Build point ratio between skills and attributes both at character creation and in game so that its cost effective to raise skills before maxing out attributes. Both you and Frank T have come up with alternatives that are appealing to me. Your rules seem a little bit better than Frank's as the cost to increase an attribute or skill increases as the skill or attribute value increases.

Blade
* Ammo modifiers
* Physical healing extended test interval : shifting from 1 day to 1 week. I'm okay with 2070 medical tech being able to heal someone very quickly, but I'm not with the nearly-dead average human getting back to full health after a week without any medical attention nor any medical supplies.
* Multiplier for upgrading an attribute. 5x (or maybe new attributeČ) rather than 3x.
Konsaki
1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64, 82, 100...
That gets pretty high up once you figure in trolls can go up to 10 natural. Course that would shift the spending from attributes to skills pretty fast.
Blade
(Of course, you wouldn't take into account racial modifiers when upgrading your attributes : a human upgrading from 3 to 4 would pay the same price as a troll upgrading from 7 to 8 )
Wakshaani
Cumulative cost for skills, starting at 1 BP at creation.

EG:

Skill Rank 1 = 1 BP
Skill Rank 2 = (1 + 2=) 3 BP
Skill Rank 3 = (1 + 2 + 3=) 6 BP
Skill Rank 4 = (1 + 2 + 3 + 4=) 10 BP
Skill Rank 5 = (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5=) 15 BP
Skill Rank 6 = (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6-) 21 BP

Skill Groups would be similar, at a set of 3:

Group Rank 1 = 3 BP
Group Rank 2 = (3 + 6=) 9 BP
Group Rank 3 = (3 + 6 + 9=) 18 BP
Group Rank 4 = (3 + 6 + 9 + 12=) 30 BP

Also, adding Magic to the Attribute chart:

Human 1/6 (9)
Ork 1/6 (9)
Dwarf 1/6 (9)
Elf 2/7 (10)
Troll 1/5 (7)

With the addition of a "Magical Prodigy" Quality (20 pts, +1 to your magic limit, as per Lucky, etc)

...

That last one is nearly a new rule, more than just math.

Smed
QUOTE (Blade)
(Of course, you wouldn't take into account racial modifiers when upgrading your attributes : a human upgrading from 3 to 4 would pay the same price as a troll upgrading from 7 to 8 )

Yep, that's the way I think it should be.
James McMurray
I'd change the page numbers, just to screw with people. smile.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
Cumulative cost for skills, starting at 1 BP at creation.

EG:

Skill Rank 1 = 1 BP
Skill Rank 2 = (1 + 2=) 3 BP
Skill Rank 3 = (1 + 2 + 3=) 6 BP
Skill Rank 4 = (1 + 2 + 3 + 4=) 10 BP
Skill Rank 5 = (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5=) 15 BP
Skill Rank 6 = (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6-) 21 BP

Skill Groups would be similar, at a set of 3:

Group Rank 1 = 3 BP
Group Rank 2 = (3 + 6=) 9 BP
Group Rank 3 = (3 + 6 + 9=) 18 BP
Group Rank 4 = (3 + 6 + 9 + 12=) 30 BP

I like, except that if you are going to do that wouldn't you double the cost of the first step like you do for karma? (I'm ok with some Skill Groups being the same cost as buying up their Skills at chargen)


QUOTE
Also, adding Magic to the Attribute chart:

Human 1/6 (9)
Ork 1/6 (9)
Dwarf 1/6 (9)
Elf 2/7 (10)
Troll 1/5 (7)

So the modified is the maximum amount every no matter how many times you Initiate? Offhand I'm OK with that, although I'm NOT cool with the hit to Trolls and boost to Elves. Not just because I hate Elves either. wink.gif Trolls are already mage gimps (have at least one die less for their Drain stat) and Elves really don't need another stat boost.
Jaid
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE
Also, adding Magic to the Attribute chart:

Human 1/6 (9)
Ork 1/6 (9)
Dwarf 1/6 (9)
Elf 2/7 (10)
Troll 1/5 (7)

So the modified is the maximum amount every no matter how many times you Initiate? Offhand I'm OK with that, although I'm NOT cool with the hit to Trolls and boost to Elves. Not just because I hate Elves either. wink.gif Trolls are already mage gimps (have at least one die less for their Drain stat) and Elves really don't need another stat boost.

there's still int + will drain based traditions. neither of those attributes are reduced for a troll.
FrankTrollman
Could we take our pick as to which mechanic to use? For example, I'd be pretty happy if I could just use the Hacking on the Fly rules (Logic + Skill) for everything and use the program numbers for something else.

-Frank
blakkie
QUOTE (Jaid @ Nov 10 2006, 01:17 PM)
there's still int + will drain based traditions. neither of those attributes are reduced for a troll.

Troll Int is 1/5 (7). Will is the only Troll mental Attribute that is a 1/6(9), and Cha is a brutal 1/4 (6). frown.gif Orcs are the ones with Int 1/6 (9) while having the lower Cha and Log.
2bit
I would change drain codes to divide by two after applying code modifiers instead of before.
Jaid
hmmm... i see... clearly i don't play trolls that often =P (that is, i don't believe i've ever even made an SR4 troll... the idea just hasn't really appealed to me yet)

yeah, that's dumb. i'd probably switch it to giving them log - 2 instead of log - 1, int - 1 personally. i see no reason why they should suffer a penalty to int, personally.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE
Also, adding Magic to the Attribute chart:

Human 1/6 (9)
Ork 1/6 (9)
Dwarf 1/6 (9)
Elf 2/7 (10)
Troll 1/5 (7)


So the modified is the maximum amount every no matter how many times you Initiate? Offhand I'm OK with that, although I'm NOT cool with the hit to Trolls and boost to Elves. Not just because I hate Elves either. wink.gif Trolls are already mage gimps (have at least one die less for their Drain stat) and Elves really don't need another stat boost.

Yup! Thus, for most, there's a hard cap of Magic 9 an, thus, Grade 9 Initiation. This puts magical areas on par with the rest of the game, rather than being utterly open-ended and uncapped. Those with Magical Aptitude could go to a 7 (10) hard cap, making them heavy hitters of hugeness.

The Troll and Elf bit is gimp Troll mages a bit, who are currently only one draindie under a normal magician but who also have teh HUGE increases in other areas, and to reflect Elves' innate magical superiority ... currently, *Dwarves* are the best magicians in the game rules, something not reflected in the worldview, where Elves are commonly magicians. That extra point's just enough to make it work out for them.
Chandon
I would change all weapon damage values to Strength + Modifier to be consistent with bows. There's no excuse to have different mechanics for different equipment, and this modification makes sure that mele weapons, bows, and firearms are balanced.
Fortune
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
Thus, for most, there's a hard cap of Magic 9 an, thus, Grade 9 Initiation. This puts magical areas on par with the rest of the game, rather than being utterly open-ended and uncapped. Those with Magical Aptitude could go to a 7 (10) hard cap, making them heavy hitters of hugeness.

What about Resonance?
blakkie
QUOTE
who are currently only one draindie under a normal magician but who also have teh HUGE increases in other areas

One to two dice under, and yes they have huge Str and Body bonus.....which they pay through the nose for. So all you are doing is deepening the big dumb Troll stereotype. Blah. frown.gif
QUOTE
....and to reflect Elves' innate magical superiority...currently, *Dwarves* are the best magicians in the game rules, something not reflected in the worldview,  where Elves are commonly magicians

question.gif I didn't realize that there was any presidence in canon for Elves overall to be that much more magicianly. Yes, there are the two nations. But the IE that underly those and garden variety Elves themselves are two very different things. Well I guess canon presidence besides the fact that they ARE already 1 die better than Dwarves on drain for Cha traditions and 2-4 spirits on call better than anyone.

So in short they don't need it.
Steak and Spirits
QUOTE (blakkie)
So all you are doing is deepening the big dumb Troll stereotype. Blah.


What's the matter with that?

I mean. Yeah, I hear you, elves are pretty gay. But trolls are big and dumb. Nothing wrong with being reminded of that.
blakkie
QUOTE (Steak and Spirits @ Nov 10 2006, 06:35 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie)
So all you are doing is deepening the big dumb Troll stereotype. Blah.


What's the matter with that?

I mean. Yeah, I hear you, elves are pretty gay. But trolls are big and dumb. Nothing wrong with being reminded of that.

Well then why not just give them straight 1s? That'll remind! What, you mean that'd be overkill? Why yes, yes it would be. cool.gif

Not to mention if you scan through the paracritters you'll find that the correspondence between Magic and mental stats somewhere in the neighborhood of r=0.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Fortune)
What about Resonance?

Haven't even eyeballed the Technomancer stuff yet. No one's been the least bit interested in playing them. (They have radio waves that come out of their heads? Uhm. I'll just buy a deck, thanks.) If it's bottomless, then I'd probably want caps on it as well. I'll worry about that if anyone ever wants to make one. smile.gif

As for Trolls, they used to have some *serious* problems with magic, having the huge mental penalties, including a loss in Willpower, making them more vulnerable. Tho they lost THAT penalty this time around, the 1 pip magic reduction would show that their talents lie more in the physical than the magical. It isn't a HUGE loss, but enough to make the Troll Mage a bit more fair-feeling.

Elves, meanwhile. are noted as having the highest rate of magical expression and, thusfar, have also had the most powerful magicians. Yes, that's mainly because of the Immortals, but, even there, the fact that Elves have so much magical power that Immortal is an *option* is telling.

So, a 1 pt boost felt like it rounded them out.
Steak and Spirits
QUOTE (Blakkie)
Well then why not just give them straight 1s?


Because that would be stupid. Duh.
Garrowolf
I totally agree on capping magic. It needs it badly. I'm not sure I like the idea of dropping it for Trolls though. My reasoning is that if they can only exist in a moderate to high mana setting then they are inheirently magical to some degree.

On the other hand I agree with the hit to the Trolls intelligence (both) because I think that they need the balence with their high strength and body.

Having a higher max for elves is not so much a problem as they are supposed to be focused more on magic. It depends on if you want to have immortal elves as a factor in your game. The higher level makes some sense for them but I would balence it out with a required moderate to severe allergy. Basically if they are more magical then they are also more vulnerable to some allergen.

If Resonance is not magical (as they keep on trying to say), then how about the opposite. Lower the resonance on metahumans and raise it for humans. It doesn't work well with magic and metahumans are partially magical...
Triggerz
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Nov 10 2006, 11:06 PM)
I totally agree on capping magic. It needs it badly.

For mages, ok, maybe. But for adepts? Increasing their Magic is the only way they can get Power Points with the actual rules, so if you cap Magic at, say, 9, you completely kill the character's potential for improvement in his art. You can learn new spells without increasing your Magic, but you can't do the same with adept powers, so you'd need to provide some way to get Power Points independently of Magic. (Maybe allow adepts to increase their Power Points as if they were increasing their Magic - same cost - but without increasing their effective Magic rating...)

[EDIT: I haven't played SR4 yet, so I'm not sure how useful a Magic cap would be.]
Dissonance
You mean like how samurai can't advance after a point? That is, without suddenly generating a big honkin' pile of deltaware with which you could just retire in the Bahamas with.
Magus
Why is everyone on the bandwagon of capping Magic? SR is the blend of technology and Magic and always has. Magic has always been uncapped AFAIK. Yes the cyber tripped out guy is going to lose out vs. magic, just as likely the Mage is going to lose out vs. the razorboy. No it is not totally and always balanced. But it does balance out in the end. I have a Social Adept currently with a 4 in Magic and 6 in Charisma. Yes with Kinsetics I can talk a good game, but I have noticed with throwing 16 dice I may get on average 6 success. I do not see this as broken.
Garrowolf
Actually the house rules I use make Adepts more powerful. You can either get a point of magic or a metamagic technique each grade of initiation. If the point of magic would be more expensive then you pay the higher cost, but you max it at 9.

Adepts can take a point of power as a metamagic technique. This means that they could theoretically gain 18 power points for 9 points of magic eventually. The limits on this are you obviously can't gain a power point AND a metamagic technique for the same point of magic. And you can't have any cyberware or bioware.

Personally I would retire a character this powerful but that is just me.
Triggerz
Well, 18 might be a bit high... I don't think I'll ever play an adept with that many power points. But 9 is a bit too low for my personal tastes. Oh! Well, in the end, go with what fits your gaming group best, but I personally don't feel the need to cap magic in that way. If high magic is a problem, I'd rather increase the karma cost, but that's just me.
Triggerz
QUOTE (Dissonance)
You mean like how samurai can't advance after a point? That is, without suddenly generating a big honkin' pile of deltaware with which you could just retire in the Bahamas with.

Well, in my opinion, FanPro left magic uncapped precisely for those who are interested in playing epic magical adventures. You don't have to go there if it's not your thing, but the possibility is open if you want to throw some heavy stuff your players' way every now and then, or if your players themselves want to climb the magical ladder up to the "Major Leagues".

As for the limits on the growth of mundane characters (relative to magical characters), well, it might be better for some gaming groups to adopt Frank Trollman's higher caps than to put a cap on magic. But then again, go with whatever suits your game world best.
blakkie
QUOTE (Steak and Spirits @ Nov 10 2006, 08:51 PM)
QUOTE (Blakkie)
Well then why not just give them straight 1s?


Because that would be stupid. Duh.

Exxx-actly! biggrin.gif
Smed
I'm not sure that uncapped Magic is a bad idea. Its expensive in karma to initiate and raise your magic attribute, plus there are other things a Mage wants to spend karma on, like learning new spells, bonding foci, etc.... It seems like it would take a heck of a lot of karma for a mage to initiate multiple times, and while he's spending all his karma bumping up his magic attribute and initiatiing, he's probably not spending it on much else.

Meanwhile, the group's mundanes are spending karma to bump up their attributes and skills, and will probably have much higher attributes a wider variety of skills than the average made.

Sure, eventually, the mundanes will max out their attributes and relevant skills, but really, how many games go long enough to get to that point?
Draconis
QUOTE (Triggerz)
[EDIT: I haven't played SR4 yet, so I'm not sure how useful a Magic cap would be.]

Not very. Completely unnecessary.
Draconis
QUOTE (Smed)
I'm not sure that uncapped Magic is a bad idea. Its expensive in karma to initiate and raise your magic attribute, plus there are other things a Mage wants to spend karma on, like learning new spells, bonding foci, etc.... It seems like it would take a heck of a lot of karma for a mage to initiate multiple times, and while he's spending all his karma bumping up his magic attribute and initiatiing, he's probably not spending it on much else.

Meanwhile, the group's mundanes are spending karma to bump up their attributes and skills, and will probably have much higher attributes a wider variety of skills than the average made.

Sure, eventually, the mundanes will max out their attributes and relevant skills, but really, how many games go long enough to get to that point?

Somebody's paying attention.

That's exactly what i've been seeing myself. I recently compared my original character to the current one. Magic/Initiation is a huge sink, I don't think i'll be initiating beyond grade 4 as i'm falling behind in everything else. I loathe having an edge of 2 but in over a year i've never had the spare points to raise it.
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