Yep, that's the way I think it should be.

I like, except that if you are going to do that wouldn't you double the cost of the first step like you do for karma? (I'm ok with some Skill Groups being the same cost as buying up their Skills at chargen)

So the modified is the maximum amount every no matter how many times you Initiate? Offhand I'm OK with that, although I'm NOT cool with the hit to Trolls and boost to Elves. Not just because I hate Elves either. Trolls are already mage gimps (have at least one die less for their Drain stat) and Elves really don't need another stat boost.

there's still int + will drain based traditions. neither of those attributes are reduced for a troll.

Troll Int is 1/5 (7). Will is the only Troll mental Attribute that is a 1/6(9), and Cha is a brutal 1/4 (6). Orcs are the ones with Int 1/6 (9) while having the lower Cha and Log.

Yup! Thus, for most, there's a hard cap of Magic 9 an, thus, Grade 9 Initiation. This puts magical areas on par with the rest of the game, rather than being utterly open-ended and uncapped. Those with Magical Aptitude could go to a 7 (10) hard cap, making them heavy hitters of hugeness.

The Troll and Elf bit is gimp Troll mages a bit, who are currently only one draindie under a normal magician but who also have teh HUGE increases in other areas, and to reflect Elves' innate magical superiority ... currently, *Dwarves* are the best magicians in the game rules, something not reflected in the worldview, where Elves are commonly magicians. That extra point's just enough to make it work out for them.

What about Resonance?

One to two dice under, and yes they have huge Str and Body bonus.....which they pay through the nose for. So all you are doing is deepening the big dumb Troll stereotype. Blah.

I didn't realize that there was any presidence in canon for Elves overall to be that much more magicianly. Yes, there are the two nations. But the IE that underly those and garden variety Elves themselves are two very different things. Well I guess canon presidence besides the fact that they ARE already 1 die better than Dwarves on drain for Cha traditions and 2-4 spirits on call better than anyone.

So in short they don't need it.

What's the matter with that?

I mean. Yeah, I hear you, elves are pretty gay. But trolls are big and dumb. Nothing wrong with being reminded of that.

Well then why not just give them straight 1s? That'll remind! What, you mean that'd be overkill? Why yes, yes it would be.

Not to mention if you scan through the paracritters you'll find that the correspondence between Magic and mental stats somewhere in the neighborhood of r=0.

Haven't even eyeballed the Technomancer stuff yet. No one's been the least bit interested in playing them. (They have radio waves that come out of their heads? Uhm. I'll just buy a deck, thanks.) If it's bottomless, then I'd probably want caps on it as well. I'll worry about that if anyone ever wants to make one.

As for Trolls, they used to have some *serious* problems with magic, having the huge mental penalties, including a loss in Willpower, making them more vulnerable. Tho they lost THAT penalty this time around, the 1 pip magic reduction would show that their talents lie more in the physical than the magical. It isn't a HUGE loss, but enough to make the Troll Mage a bit more fair-feeling.

Elves, meanwhile. are noted as having the highest rate of magical expression and, thusfar, have also had the most powerful magicians. Yes, that's mainly because of the Immortals, but, even there, the fact that Elves have so much magical power that Immortal is an *option* is telling.

So, a 1 pt boost felt like it rounded them out.

Because that would be stupid. Duh.

For mages, ok, maybe. But for adepts? Increasing their Magic is the only way they can get Power Points with the actual rules, so if you cap Magic at, say, 9, you completely kill the character's potential for improvement in his art. You can learn new spells without increasing your Magic, but you can't do the same with adept powers, so you'd need to provide some way to get Power Points independently of Magic. (Maybe allow adepts to increase their Power Points as if they were increasing their Magic - same cost - but without increasing their effective Magic rating...)

[EDIT: I haven't played SR4 yet, so I'm not sure how useful a Magic cap would be.]

Well, in my opinion, FanPro left magic uncapped precisely for those who are interested in playing epic magical adventures. You don't have to go there if it's not your thing, but the possibility is open if you want to throw some heavy stuff your players' way every now and then, or if your players themselves want to climb the magical ladder up to the "Major Leagues".

As for the limits on the growth of mundane characters (relative to magical characters), well, it might be better for some gaming groups to adopt Frank Trollman's higher caps than to put a cap on magic. But then again, go with whatever suits your game world best.

Exxx-actly!

Not very. Completely unnecessary.

Somebody's paying attention.

That's exactly what i've been seeing myself. I recently compared my original character to the current one. Magic/Initiation is a huge sink, I don't think i'll be initiating beyond grade 4 as i'm falling behind in everything else. I loathe having an edge of 2 but in over a year i've never had the spare points to raise it.