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6thDragon
I ran into this at a recent gaming session and the rules, as written, seem ridiculous. However, in the writers defense it is probably that way for simplicity. The situation was one of the players decided to create a character with a monowhip. They got into melee combat and I realized how simplistic the rules are. I have many issues with them.

1. I don't see the monowhip being able to parry anything. It would probably cut the weapon in half and the parryer (if that's a word) could get hit by the remainder of the weapon as it becomes a projectile.

2. I don't see anything being able to parry a monowhip either as the monowhip would simply cut the weapon in half.

3. I think shock weapons would be difficult to parry also, especially if the weapon is metal.

4. There are many things I would not want to block unarmed such as blades, shock weapons, monowhips. IRL you would much rather dodge those.

Has anyone else ran into these problems? If so how have you fixed them.
Konsaki
When you are blocking unarmed, you arnt actually touching the weapon. You are blocking the attackers arm or feinting enough to throw off his aim.
Backgammon
The abstract nature of the melee rules are meant to avoid all these problems. The defender doesn't necessarely block the monowhip with his own weapon. Maybe he dodges the hit, hides behind something, maybe he block the swing arm rather than the weapon, etc. Just don't try to ground the moves as something specific. One round of melee isn't "I punch his face, then he punches mine", just as it isn't "he swings, I block,"
Jaid
1) monowire can't exist anyways, or so it has been stated on these forums. just assume that, for whatever reason, it doesn't chop through anything quite that easily. i mean, really... it's gotta be thick enough to withstand some rather violent use, and it's only got a very little ball at the end supplying the force. 8P won't even kill someone, really. besides, you could just smack that little ball thing at the end to deflect it.

2) shock weapons must presumably have some non-active parts. furthermore, i would assume that many weapons are not necessarily made of metal. plasteel is pretty commonly used. who knows, maybe it's a good insulator?

3) if you have issues with seeing certain attacks as parrys, fine. i assure you, lots of martial arts include teaching you how to dodge as well as parry... just call it something else if the name bothers you. always remember: you can flavor your mechanics however you please without affecting balance in the slightest.
Glyph
I agree that the rules are very simplistic, and you might consider adopting some kind of house rules if they seem too simplistic for certain circumstances. But there are ways you can justify the situations that you brought up using the current rules:

1. A monowhip parrying would probably consist of swinging the whip around in defensive arcs, while the attacker tried to get past it.

2 - 4. What Konsaki said. Also, the rules do already include grazing hits for things like shock weapons, so they are slightly harder to block. Furthermore, the reach rules approximate the difficulty of blocking weapons bare-handed.
lorechaser
And overall, Shadowrun isn't a game about melee combat. Some people are trying to fix that, but it's only a small subsection of the entire combat arena. So unified, simple rules were the choice made....

So short answer: I see the issues, and have thought about them, and ignored them in the interested of keeping the system useful. wink.gif
Smed
Me too. Streamlined gameplay is more important to me than ultra-realism.
Blade
If you stricly apply firearms rules, someone with his gun at 2cm of someone else's head might still miss.

Usually, roleplaying and having a GM somewhere around the table help solving those problems. Common sense is quite useful too.
Ophis
Problems like this should be taken as Ideas for when the defender glitches.

"Ooops, you manage to avoid the Monowhip, you grin to yourself for a moment and then with a ringing clang half your weapon focus' blade hits the the floor."
Konsaki
Could be, but how many times are you actually going to come across someone with a Monowhip? It takes an assload of skill to use and even then, you can easily kill yourself instead of the other guy.

You have to be either really confident in your abilities or really crazy.
Ophis
There are a lot of crazies in my version of the Sixth World. Monowhips are the toys of hard asses and stupid gangers.
Jaid
QUOTE (Ophis)
There are a lot of crazies in my version of the Sixth World. Monowhips are the toys of hard asses and stupid gangers.

and for people with access to spirits that have the guard power.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (6thDragon)
I ran into this at a recent gaming session and the rules, as written, seem ridiculous. However, in the writers defense it is probably that way for simplicity. The situation was one of the players decided to create a character with a monowhip. They got into melee combat and I realized how simplistic the rules are. I have many issues with them.

1. I don't see the monowhip being able to parry anything. It would probably cut the weapon in half and the parryer (if that's a word) could get hit by the remainder of the weapon as it becomes a projectile.

2. I don't see anything being able to parry a monowhip either as the monowhip would simply cut the weapon in half.

3. I think shock weapons would be difficult to parry also, especially if the weapon is metal.

4. There are many things I would not want to block unarmed such as blades, shock weapons, monowhips. IRL you would much rather dodge those.

Has anyone else ran into these problems? If so how have you fixed them.

If you've had any hand-to-hand training you'll realize you can block/parry with or without a weapon. Although blocking a mono-whip would be painful using your own body parts, lol.

In the nature of simplicity, you could rule that blocking/parrying is using environmental items (yourself, carried items, chairs, walls, doors, etc.) to avoid the attack. I'd GM call on what you can or can't block/parry given the attack and what you've got handy and maybe a structural test to see if it breaks if the item is important enough.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
In the nature of simplicity, you could rule that blocking/parrying is using environmental items (yourself, carried items, chairs, walls, doors, etc.) to avoid the attack. I'd GM call on what you can or can't block/parry given the attack and what you've got handy and maybe a structural test to see if it breaks if the item is important enough.

In other words, Shadowrun meets Jackie Chan.
eidolon
QUOTE (Blade)
Usually, roleplaying and having a GM somewhere around the table help solving those problems. Common sense is quite useful too.

A-freaking-men. But shhhh...someone might hear you. wink.gif
hyzmarca
Making monowire parry-able also makes it reasonable. Rather than a chain of single molecules, make it just cermaic fishing line with a very sharp edge.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Blade)
If you stricly apply firearms rules, someone with his gun at 2cm of someone else's head might still miss.

They miss becasue the target moves before you shoot or knocks the gun away with there hand. Assuming they aren't helpless and are aware of the attack dodging gunfire can be easier at close range. Thats why you face a -3 penalty when using a ranged weapon while in melee with somone.

*You'd parry a monofilament whip by striking the weighted tip that's used to guide mono wire.
You could also rush in close and parry the arm away.

You won't find a monowhip on any gangers or low-level corp security. But a Tri-Ghost level foe might use one. The monowhip is for guys with last names not red shirts. (who would kill themselves)
But for those who have the attributes and skill. The Mono whip is death to your enemies.

My own elf uses one and he rolls 12 dice when attacking with his whip. 14 if he adds reach into the attack. His reaction is one lower then his agility so to parry he'd roll one less.
Now at 12 dice he'd need at least six ones and no hits to critical glitch.
Any math wiz want to caculate the chance of a critical glitch coming up on 12 dice?
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Nov 13 2006, 01:51 PM)
In the nature of simplicity, you could rule that blocking/parrying is using environmental items (yourself, carried items, chairs, walls, doors, etc.) to avoid the attack.  I'd GM call on what you can or can't block/parry given the attack and what you've got handy and maybe a structural test to see if it breaks if the item is important enough.

In other words, Shadowrun meets Jackie Chan.

rotfl.gif
Jack Kain
A thought just struck me.

A character can attack multiple enemies in melee in a single complex action by spliting his dice pool. Much like a character shooting a gun in each hand.

But I just realized wouldn't the full reach bonus be applied to both attacks? As the reach bonus can be used as a penalty to the enemies rolls or a bonus to yourself.
Thoughts?
IvanTank
I was wondering about that myself. At what point does the dice pool get split when attacking multiple enemies, before or after given modifiers (Visibility, Reach, Weapon Focus, Charging, Wounds, Position, etc.). The Reach modifier seems like it would have to be applied seperately, because two enemies may have different Reaches themselves.

My thinking is you take Agiliy + Skill ( + Weapon Focus? ), split those dice among two attacks, and add the modifiers seperately to both attacks. I am not sure if the weapon focus bonus should come before or after the split, meaning do you get the full bonus to both attacks, or do you have to split the bonus.
Triggerz
Or just use the same rule as for smartlinks in dual-wielding ranged combat and ignore reach entirely. grinbig.gif (Seriously, I can't wait for the advanced melee combat rules with martial arts and such.)
OneTrikPony
Waaay back in SR2 I had a troll with a cyberarm shotgun. In one of our first adventures my character was facing a snobby human who wasn't cooperating.

me: I reach accross the table and grab the b*ch by the head.
GM: make an attack roll.
Me: (re roll two sixes) I got 11,
Gm: (throws a handfull of dice) You're palming her head like a mini basket ball.
Me: I ask her one more time where it is.
GM: (throws another handfull of dice) she's just struggleing and screaming into your hand she doesn't answer.
Me: I shoot her in the face with my cybergun. "Kaboom"
Table: Dead silence and surprised looks for a minute then Cheers.
GM: Fine! she's dead you ass.

It was one of my proudest moments; no rolls needed, it wouldn't have fit the scenario that I'd role played. Some times you just have to look at the situation and see if the rules are necessary or if you just need to make a ruleing at the table.
Fortune
QUOTE (IvanTank)
At what point does the dice pool get split when attacking multiple enemies, before or after given modifiers (Visibility, Reach, Weapon Focus, Charging, Wounds, Position, etc.).

The Dice Pool is split before any modifiers are applied. That means you take (only) Agility + Weapon Skill, halve that, and only then apply any and all modifiers to each seperate Pool.
IvanTank
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (IvanTank @ Nov 16 2006, 06:30 AM)
At what point does the dice pool get split when attacking multiple enemies, before or after given modifiers (Visibility, Reach, Weapon Focus, Charging, Wounds, Position, etc.).

The Dice Pool is split before any modifiers are applied. That means you take (only) Agility + Weapon Skill, halve that, and only then apply any and all modifiers to each seperate Pool.

Do you have to split it in half? Example, you have a dice pool of 12, and you are going against a human mage in la-la land and the big ass troll protecting him. Could you decide to throw 4 dice at the mage and 8 dice at the troll, since he might take a bit more to deal with?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (OneTrikPony)
Waaay back in SR2 I had a troll with a cyberarm shotgun. In one of our first adventures my character was facing a snobby human who wasn't cooperating.

me: I reach accross the table and grab the b*ch by the head.
GM: make an attack roll.
Me: (re roll two sixes) I got 11,
Gm: (throws a handfull of dice) You're palming her head like a mini basket ball.
Me: I ask her one more time where it is.
GM: (throws another handfull of dice) she's just struggleing and screaming into your hand she doesn't answer.
Me: I shoot her in the face with my cybergun. "Kaboom"
Table: Dead silence and surprised looks for a minute then Cheers.
GM: Fine! she's dead you ass.

It was one of my proudest moments; no rolls needed, it wouldn't have fit the scenario that I'd role played. Some times you just have to look at the situation and see if the rules are necessary or if you just need to make a ruleing at the table.

Sounds like the time my SR2 group's street sam "Pork Chop" pulled the same stunt with a fleshform while clearing out a UB chapterhouse. When he slapped his hand on the bug man's forehead, he bellowed in his very best televangelist voice "Be HEALED my brother!" then triggered the cyberarm shotgun.

Fortune
QUOTE (IvanTank)
Do you have to split it in half? Example, you have a dice pool of 12, and you are going against a human mage in la-la land and the big ass troll protecting him. Could you decide to throw 4 dice at the mage and 8 dice at the troll, since he might take a bit more to deal with?

There is no mention that I know of in the rules that specifically states that the split has to be even. I might make a house rule that the Pool cannot be split any more than what was in your example, but then that would make things messier when a character is thrying to handle three or even four opponents.

As it stands though, there is no reason why a character could not do what you describe. smile.gif
lorechaser
QUOTE (Fortune)
As it stands though, there is no reason why a character could not do what you describe. smile.gif

Except that it really just seems wrong to me, somehow.

I can't pin down how, but it seems very likely that you can do something horribly broken with that.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 15 2006, 04:15 PM)
QUOTE (IvanTank @ Nov 16 2006, 06:30 AM)
At what point does the dice pool get split when attacking multiple enemies, before or after given modifiers (Visibility, Reach, Weapon Focus, Charging, Wounds, Position, etc.).

The Dice Pool is split before any modifiers are applied. That means you take (only) Agility + Weapon Skill, halve that, and only then apply any and all modifiers to each seperate Pool.

It seems to me that this provides a lot of potential to make nasty nasty melee attacks.

Get a troll with a dice pool of 16 or so. Split to 8 each. Add weapon focus 2 katans in each hand (+2 from reach/+2 foci) while charging (+2). Do it from higher ground, and you're +1. So now you're looking at 15 dice *per* attack. 12 if you're just standing still. It's a bit expensive, but not bad, and not much more than having a single focus 2 katana 4 bp to buy, 2 to bond).

I'm also not 100% sure how things like reflex recorders and such that add dice would impact the split - pre or post?
Fortune
Reflex Recorder (and an Adept's Improved Ability) adds directly to the Skill rating, so would be split with the original Pool.
IvanTank
QUOTE (lorechaser)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 15 2006, 04:15 PM)
QUOTE (IvanTank @ Nov 16 2006, 06:30 AM)
At what point does the dice pool get split when attacking multiple enemies, before or after given modifiers (Visibility, Reach, Weapon Focus, Charging, Wounds, Position, etc.).

The Dice Pool is split before any modifiers are applied. That means you take (only) Agility + Weapon Skill, halve that, and only then apply any and all modifiers to each seperate Pool.

It seems to me that this provides a lot of potential to make nasty nasty melee attacks.

Get a troll with a dice pool of 16 or so. Split to 8 each. Add weapon focus 2 katans in each hand (+2 from reach/+2 foci) while charging (+2). Do it from higher ground, and you're +1. So now you're looking at 15 dice *per* attack. 12 if you're just standing still. It's a bit expensive, but not bad, and not much more than having a single focus 2 katana 4 bp to buy, 2 to bond).

I'm also not 100% sure how things like reflex recorders and such that add dice would impact the split - pre or post?

Don't forget to do a +4DV called shot on each attack, which still gives you a 11 dice pool on each attack, doing an insane amount of damage, more if you use a axe weapon focus.
Triggerz
QUOTE (lorechaser)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 15 2006, 04:15 PM)
QUOTE (IvanTank @ Nov 16 2006, 06:30 AM)
At what point does the dice pool get split when attacking multiple enemies, before or after given modifiers (Visibility, Reach, Weapon Focus, Charging, Wounds, Position, etc.).

The Dice Pool is split before any modifiers are applied. That means you take (only) Agility + Weapon Skill, halve that, and only then apply any and all modifiers to each seperate Pool.

It seems to me that this provides a lot of potential to make nasty nasty melee attacks.

Get a troll with a dice pool of 16 or so. Split to 8 each. Add weapon focus 2 katans in each hand (+2 from reach/+2 foci) while charging (+2). Do it from higher ground, and you're +1. So now you're looking at 15 dice *per* attack. 12 if you're just standing still. It's a bit expensive, but not bad, and not much more than having a single focus 2 katana 4 bp to buy, 2 to bond).

I'm also not 100% sure how things like reflex recorders and such that add dice would impact the split - pre or post?

16+2+2+3=23. He could have 23 dice if he did not split the pool. The rules allow a master swordsman to cut several low-skill people in a single complex action. I don't think it's all that different from a full auto weapon kiling three different targets in the same complex action. The SR world can be brutal. Personally, I have no problem with the rules as they are (in terms of splitting the pool). Called Shot is broken, but that's a different issue. See Serbitar's house rules for a fix.
hyzmarca
Try watching the Zatoichi movies some time. They start out slow but the always have one good fight scene in which this blind guy slaughters at least 30 bad uys all at once with his superior sword skills.

The ability to recreate these scenes in Shadowrun is quite nice.
IvanTank
Now the question is, can you get the charge bonus on both attacks, or do you charge the first guy, and then followup with the second, which doesn't get the charge bonus?
Fortune
QUOTE (IvanTank)
Now the question is, can you get the charge bonus on both attacks, or do you charge the first guy, and then followup with the second, which doesn't get the charge bonus?

I would think that if the first target qualified for the charge bonus ... and the second target is with the required range from the first target for a legitimate attack ... and the second target would also have qualified for the charge bonus if he was the sole target ... and both attacks are carried out on the same action without any movement in between (probably obvious, but still ... biggrin.gif) ... then I would add the charge bonus to both attacks.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Triggerz)
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Nov 15 2006, 09:04 PM)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 15 2006, 04:15 PM)
QUOTE (IvanTank @ Nov 16 2006, 06:30 AM)
At what point does the dice pool get split when attacking multiple enemies, before or after given modifiers (Visibility, Reach, Weapon Focus, Charging, Wounds, Position, etc.).

The Dice Pool is split before any modifiers are applied. That means you take (only) Agility + Weapon Skill, halve that, and only then apply any and all modifiers to each seperate Pool.

It seems to me that this provides a lot of potential to make nasty nasty melee attacks.

Get a troll with a dice pool of 16 or so. Split to 8 each. Add weapon focus 2 katans in each hand (+2 from reach/+2 foci) while charging (+2). Do it from higher ground, and you're +1. So now you're looking at 15 dice *per* attack. 12 if you're just standing still. It's a bit expensive, but not bad, and not much more than having a single focus 2 katana 4 bp to buy, 2 to bond).

I'm also not 100% sure how things like reflex recorders and such that add dice would impact the split - pre or post?

16+2+2+3=23. He could have 23 dice if he did not split the pool. The rules allow a master swordsman to cut several low-skill people in a single complex action. I don't think it's all that different from a full auto weapon kiling three different targets in the same complex action. The SR world can be brutal. Personally, I have no problem with the rules as they are (in terms of splitting the pool). Called Shot is broken, but that's a different issue. See Serbitar's house rules for a fix.

The key, though, is that the DV *isn't* split. So if you have a DV of 9, then getting enough dice rolled to consistently hit with both attacks means that you're getting a huge boost.

23 dice with 9 dv vs 2x 13 dice w/9

Let's say 13 is enough to get a single net hit. So you're looking at 10 dv x2.

If 13 gets one, then 23 will get, say, 3, so you're looking at 12 dv x1.

I think I'll take 10 x2 vs 12 x1....

Because of the way the combat works, and the huge increase of DV, you're better off with two blows that barely hit + dv than one that hits fairly well.

Moon-Hawk
Sure. If both blows hit, then you do more damage. However, if splitting your pool causes one or both to miss, you do less. i.e. You can slaughter weak opponents, but splitting against a tough opponent just means you'll fail twice as much, as oppose to marginally succeeding once. I think it's a good tradeoff.
GWCarver
I've got a a troll adept who is designed for this, though is isn't that pwoerful yet. Agi 5 + Unarmed 5 + Specialized in Fighting Groups + 2. It will be nice if/when I can get him some sort of weapon foci to work with his killing hands.
Triggerz
Yet, you're better off with one blow that hits than with two that miss. By splitting the pool, you're taking chances. (I do understand that sometimes the risk isn't big though.)
lorechaser
There is a chance, yes.

And I'm not arguing the value of two weapons vs one (though 13 dice in a pool is generally considered a good number). My concern is with the potential for abuse of melee attacks by the number of modifiers that can be stacked on after the attr+skill split occurs if you allow everything to apply.

There's a reason you can't get smartlinks on two guns. What's the equivalent for melee, where there are more bonuses than just +2 for smart links?

I guess I'm asking "What do you think should be added first, or disallowed, for melee dual wields?"

It's tempered by the fact that melee is a complex action, which makes it harder to judge.
Triggerz
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 16 2006, 01:50 AM)
Try watching the Zatoichi movies some time. They start out slow but the always have one good fight scene in which this blind guy slaughters at least 30 bad uys all at once with his superior sword skills.

The ability to recreate these scenes in Shadowrun is quite nice.

What he said... nyahnyah.gif (If you prefer, you can rule that the weapon focus bonus applies before the split - and, actually, I think that's how I would read the WF rules. I think that limits abuse quite nicely. The rest of the modifiers, well, you just need to remember that if there are five bad guys around you, they each get a 4-die bonus.)

EDIT: But I think the other modifiers are attack-specific and would apply to each roll separately
Jaid
QUOTE (GWCarver)
I've got a a troll adept who is designed for this, though is isn't that pwoerful yet. Agi 5 + Unarmed 5 + Specialized in Fighting Groups + 2. It will be nice if/when I can get him some sort of weapon foci to work with his killing hands.

does he have throwing skill too? large rocks should be the specialisation of course, and he'll need those adept powers to go with it... biggrin.gif

(or did i just pick up on a reference that was never there in the first place?)
lorechaser
My way isn't very sporting.
Narmio
QUOTE (Blade)
Usually, roleplaying and having a GM somewhere around the table help solving those problems. Common sense is quite useful too.

I think you may have just elegantly solved nine out of ten rules discussions on this board.
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