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emo samurai
Personally, I'd like to live in an arcology, provided it was SCIRE quality. That means real sunlight reflected from the outside, clean air, quick, efficient public transportation, and 400 square meters a family.

See, you have to compare arcology life to city life, not to country life. In the city, you'll actually get less sunlight than in the arcology, since you're surrounded on all sides by skyscrapers and there isn't a complex mirror/fiber optics system to beam it to you. The air in any major city sucks, and housing is hard to come by. The traffic also sucks donkey balls.

So yeah, I can't wait for the Japanese to build us a bigass arcology.
Kagetenshi
I'd love it, especially the deranged drones and malfunctioning computer systems. Plus the deathtraps.

~J
Angelone
I'll be laughing at both of you between the hacking cough, cause the "bad air" it's flavored damnit, as some AI tests the elasticity of your nostrils.
emo samurai
Don't be a dick; you know I mean the pre-Shutdown SCIRE.
Kagetenshi
My life goal is to help make the AI that will test the elasticity of my nostrils, so I guess it'd still be some kind of success wink.gif

~J
Angelone
I for one want to experience life, not be locked in what amounts to be a hamster cage. So what if the air's dirty, it's dark because of the skyscrapers, there's mean people who'll try to do bad things to me, ectera. Living in an arcology, to me, isn't living.
Butterblume
I'd love to life in a well designed arcology. Not the Renraku one, of course biggrin.gif.

A while back I read a lot about the theories behind arcologies, it's quite interesting. (Sadly, I don't have the links anymore)
emo samurai
What if it was free-market, in terms of what could be built there? What if it was basically as free as a real city?
Kagetenshi
I would definitely not want to live in that. Ugh.

~J
emo samurai
Why?
Kagetenshi
There are other objections, but I'll list one: elevator maintenance contract.

Or were we talking small values of "free market"?

~J
emo samurai
Elevator maintenance contract?

Yeah, I'm talking "People bid on real estate and set up whatever the fuck they want" free market, not "50 different departments run by 50 different companies. So if the air conditioning company goes under, you suffocate."
Kagetenshi
Well, what I mean is, are we talking "central organization taxes and/or collects fees and covers necessities like elevators, power, water, air, sewage, etc. therefrom" or "anyone who wants to provide services like elevators, power, etc. sets up shop and makes ends meet by selling to whoever they can, however they can, and if something isn't profitable it doesn't get done"?

~J
emo samurai
Oh, central organization. Definitely. But you'll find subculture stores that aren't Hot Topic.
Kagetenshi
Not necessarily. Who's living there? I mean, if we took the Renraku Arcology, complete with live-in traditional sarariiman, I doubt there'd be much to support subculture stores. Hell, 100,000 is huge for a building, but it's tiny for a city—you're probably not going to get much subculture support in general.

~J
emo samurai
NOOOOO!!!!
Kagetenshi
Well, question of where the arcology is located matters. If it's self-contained in the middle of nowhere, you're out of luck. If it's in the middle of a big urban center, the lower floors are going to take on the character of the surrounding area, plus the consumer base of the hundred thousand people above them. That would get you some subculture, probably. Still, the Arc itself isn't going to support that very well.

Also, I should have said "small", not "tiny". Either way, it's not the big city by itself.

~J
mfb
moreover, because it's a corporate arcology, and corporations in SR have their own cultural norms, you'll find even fewer cultural variations. you won't even have Hot Topic--you'll have Renraku Hot Topic.
Dog
Gah! Living in a marvel of engineering would be cool, but the way life in the arc is presented, no bloody way. No sterile, gilded cage for me.
emo samurai
Yeah, maybe I should have said "Renraku Arcology level technology, but not run by Renraku or any real corporation."
Dog
Oh, then sure.

Nice view.
emo samurai
It's bright and shiny.

Now, how would it compare to country life?
Dog
It'd suck eggs, IMHO.

I shall never see an arc as lovely as a tree.
mfb
it'd compare about the same to country life as city life does. practically speaking, there's not much difference between living in the city and living in an arco--you've got all the same advantages, and all the same disadvantages. which is which depends largely on who you ask. some people hate being around that many people; i enjoy the anonymity. some people like the open air and whatnot; i get bored.
emo samurai
I like the open air, but I could always go to a balcony for that.

But I'd love having a shitload of people around me; the anonymity's good. I'd still be able to know my nearest neighbors, anyway.
Butterblume
QUOTE (mfb)
it'd compare about the same to country life as city life does. practically speaking, there's not much difference between living in the city and living in an arco--you've got all the same advantages, and all the same disadvantages.

That is actually not true.

You get different advantages living in an arcology, and most likely different disadvantages. The whole point of arcologies is to maximize the advantages and minimize the disadvantages.
emo samurai
And the biggest advantage to living in a big city: Having a shitload of gamers.

I can NOT find gamers in my small fucking town.

And what do you mean maximizing the advantages and minimizing the disadvantages? Like getting rid of congestion, maximizing living space, and destroying localized pollution?
Kagetenshi
Everything is walking distance (if you don't count the elevators) or available by short, effective public transportation (if you do). Inclement weather doesn't threaten you. No long commutes. Things like that.

~J
mfb
QUOTE (Butterblume)
You get different advantages living in an arcology, and most likely different disadvantages. The whole point of arcologies is to maximize the advantages and minimize the disadvantages.

six of one, half a dozen of the other. everything's closer in a city; that's even more true in an arcology. cities are crowded; arcologies are more crowded. the things people like about living in cities, they'll generally like even more about living in arcologies. the things they dislike will likewise be magnified. there are, of course, advantages and disadvantages unique to arcologies, but for the most part, i'd project arcology life as being appealing or unappealing for the same reasons as city life.
emo samurai
I love cities. I'm just afraid that an arcology would be TOO managed. Cities have diversity in their buildings that don't come with the managerial necessities of arcologies.
Butterblume
QUOTE (mfb)
the things people like about living in cities, they'll generally like even more about living in arcologies. the things they dislike will likewise be magnified.

Without establishing what people living in a big city hate, this can't be adressed wink.gif.

One advantage in arcos was already mentioned, short commutes. Your work, shops, recreational areas like parks or pubs, and friends are only a short walk and an elevator ride away. Pretty cool, when in a 'normal' big city the commute alone can cost you several hours a day (and, just a tidbit of information, 'modern' big cities have up to two thirds of their area dedicated to transportation alone).
mfb
well, the lines. i hate the lines in cities. and, here at least, i hate the fact that downtown dies at 7pm. the only damn thing that's open is McDonald's.
emo samurai
Yeah, the good thing about huge-ass cities is that they always have the best ___ in whatever large area they're in. The best popcorn, the best cheesecake, etc. The problem is that those paragons of culinary delight are always swamped.
Dog
Convenience can be a bad thing.
emo samurai
I do like the idea of finding holes in the wall and going down mysterious alleys to buy shit, but elaborate.
Jame J
Live in the Renraku arcology? HELL NO. I'd rather get stepped on by Hestaby (again).

Live in any other arcology, though, yeah.
emo samurai
QUOTE (Jame J)
Live in the Renraku arcology? HELL NO. I'd rather get stepped on by Hestaby (again).

Elaborate?
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (emo samurai)
And the biggest advantage to living in a big city: Having a shitload of gamers.

I can NOT find gamers in my small fucking town.

And what do you mean maximizing the advantages and minimizing the disadvantages? Like getting rid of congestion, maximizing living space, and destroying localized pollution?

Dear god that's wrong. In my small town there were competing game stores and enough clients to keep both afloat. In my big city I've met 2 gamers total who weren't introduced to gaming by me, or one of the people I introduced to it.
emo samurai
I notice we're moving away from wanting to live in the SCIRE.
Jame J
QUOTE (emo samurai)
QUOTE (Jame J @ Nov 13 2006, 04:29 PM)
Live in the Renraku arcology? HELL NO. I'd rather get stepped on by Hestaby (again).

Elaborate?

Isn't the Renraku Arc the one where Deus went wild?

As for the Hestaby bit, it never happened in a game, but look at my sig (and apparently I think she's neat).
Bodak
QUOTE (Dog)
I shall never see an arc as lovely as a tree.
I concur.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I'd love it, especially the deranged drones and malfunctioning computer systems. Plus the deathtraps.
It sounds like someone enjoyed Paranoia as much as I did. Bring on the transdimensional collapsitron! Happiness is mandatory!
Dog
QUOTE (emo samurai)
I do like the idea of finding holes in the wall and going down mysterious alleys to buy shit, but elaborate.

If you were referring to me, I meant that in my experience, the convenience of city living is rather... enslaving.

When I lived in the country, I had less stuff. I had less access to stuff. I learned to meet my own needs. It amazes me how many people my age around here can't change a tire, let alone fix basic mechanical problems. People who can go to 24 hour convenience stores tend not to think ahead. Where I grew up, you went shopping once a week. You had to plan. When your plan didn't work, you had to live with it. When I was bored, I made something up, because we didn't have any TV to speak of. I was driving and hunting by age 12. You had to learn to get along with the idiot counter girl at the pharmacy, because it was the only pharmacy, there were only two counter girls, and you can't just go somewhere else.

Maybe I'm being obtuse again. When gathered in large numbers, people tend to specialize more. If there's ten doctors in town, then one can be a pediatrician and one can be a cardiologist. But if it's a town with one doctor, he's gotta cover all the bases. He may not be as good a pediatrician as his city counterpart, but he's also the cardiologist, and likely serving as a counsellor and teacher as well. When there are fewer people, everyone needs to be a little more versatile. By being versatile, we develop more self-reliance. When you have convenient access to all kinds of products or services, you begin to rely on them. "Dammit, I'm a certified Chevy mechanic! I can't fix your Honda."

A related observation, I'll even put it into SR terms: Perhaps urban folks tend to value skills more; he's a good computer guy, she's an excellent business manager. But rural folks seem to place more value on attributes; he's strong, she's smart....
That might be unfair generalizing. Just throwing it out there.

Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Dog @ Nov 13 2006, 11:51 PM)
It amazes me how many people my age around here can't change a tire, let alone fix basic mechanical problems.

It amazes me how many people my age can't use a compiler, too, let alone dig through a crashlog to solve system or application instability. Granted, cars are still in wider and more critical use than computers, but it's all a part of the same "what do I spend my time and attention on" problem.

Which comes back to your thing about specialization, but you chose a spectacularly bad example for it. Cars have become dramatically more complex—some people in my former RL gaming group worked in automotive repair, so I got a wakeup call about the complexity involved there. With the complexity has come divergence between the different makers. Apart from basic problems (which, admittedly, is what most of them are), it's probably going to be very difficult to know everything needed to proficiently service a wide range of vehicles.

~J
Dog
I hear you Kagetenshi. I'd say the analogy still holds up, though.

Because it's not as simple as "city people know computers, country people know cars." As you pointed out, the technology is complex in both. But I'm not talking about levels of technology; I'm talking about access to resources, human and otherwise.

I'm more likely to find help with a specific high performance car in the city, but my home-town mechanic probably has to have the diagnostics computer (or whatever) for several makes of cars in his garage.

Likewise, when I might have the option to go to an expert to deal with the crash of a particular application here in the city, if I were back home, I might just have to go to "the computer guy." He probably won't know that application as well as the expert, but he might be dealing with a completely different system tomorrow, too. He can't specialize; he has to sacrifice depth for breadth.

So in that way, it really is about "What do I spend my time on?" Do you learn a little bit about all the things you might need, or do you become an expert on one topic? Each of those choices has more value in the right context.
DV8
Great, living in a shopping mall.
toturi
My god, if you are leet enough, just think of the cutting edge loot... Glod and epixx... The loot, the loot!

biggrin.gif nyahnyah.gif
Draconis
Yes nothing beats cameras and security everywhere. No they're not watching me, they're watching the bad men. They can't follow me everywhere, no not at all.

Arggg some people just need to be bludgeoned with a copy of 1984 or Brazil.
Ryu
Living in an XXL shopping mall, yesss!

Hmm, no. Actually not the reason I voted yes. I´d be very interested how a self-sufficient arcology is supposed to work, as the manufacturing industry would be very limited. But between a sports studio for some physical work and a high-end comlink for engineering, there will be little incentive for me to live outside. Much time of the day will be spent in VR anyway. And the recreational facilities inside will be kick-ass, considering the customer density.
mfb
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Which comes back to your thing about specialization, but you chose a spectacularly bad example for it. Cars have become dramatically more complex—some people in my former RL gaming group worked in automotive repair, so I got a wakeup call about the complexity involved there. With the complexity has come divergence between the different makers. Apart from basic problems (which, admittedly, is what most of them are), it's probably going to be very difficult to know everything needed to proficiently service a wide range of vehicles.

great, now even Ford and Toyota are interpreting CSS standards differently. the entire intratube is designed to make life for webdesigners a pluperfect hell.
Dog
QUOTE (Ryu)
And the recreational facilities inside will be kick-ass, considering the customer density.

Funny, I'd say exactly the same thing about the wilderness.

Different strokes for different folks....
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