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mfb
western civilization continues to decline.
krayola red
Nuclear launch detected.
Lazerface
The title of my Essay on the German Blitzkrieg: OMGZergRushlololololololololol
Konsaki
ROFL rotfl.gif
hyzmarca
So New Zealand schools are preparing their students for careers in the exciting world of court reporting?

Critias
I don't understand why students that use "text-speak" abbreviations in English class are penalized...instead of just being put to death.
Konsaki
[Groan] Next thing you know, they will be offering Masters on the subject of Ebonics...
Digital Heroin
OMGWTFBBQ!
Grinder
QUOTE (mfb)
western civilization continues to decline.

Only New Zealand, only New Zealand.
Digital Heroin
I'm actually suprised this didn't happen somewhere in North America first... but I'm not overly suprised with it at all. TLAs and ETLAs (Two Letter Acronyms and Extended Two Letter Acronyms) were course material for me back in college. 'course I was there for computers, but it's still ingrained in my mind.
Ryu
I hope this is a test of personal standards and anyone using text speak automatically fails. If it isnīt, germany will be happy to supply students who will be happy to finally fit to expectations.
Grinder
No longer losing at PISA! biggrin.gif
Kyoto Kid
...I recant my statement in the Skinlink by Sony thread about the impending apocalypse being foreshadowed in the froth of a Starbucks latte.

This is the sign, we are all doomed.
toturi
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 28 2006, 06:47 AM)
western civilization continues to decline.

Only New Zealand, only New Zealand.

OMG! Frodo FTW!
Butterblume
Some years back I had a girlfriend who actually used terms like 'lol', 'rofl' or 'gosu' in oral conversation.

I chose to find it cute instead of disturbing twirl.gif.
SL James
Until the sex stopped, anyway.

But I can't help but think of how the idea of English purity is tossed around whenever something like this is in the news. As someone mentioned on rpg.net several months ago, "English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words... We pursue other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
lorechaser
QUOTE (Critias)
I don't understand why students that use "text-speak" abbreviations in English class are penalized...instead of just being put to death.

QFT
Grinder
QUOTE (SL James)
Until the sex stopped, anyway.

Made a bad experience? rotfl.gif
Tanegar
QUOTE (Butterblume)
Some years back I had a girlfriend who actually used terms like 'lol', 'rofl' or 'gosu' in oral conversation.

I chose to find it cute instead of disturbing twirl.gif.

What does GOSU stand for? I have never seen that acronym before.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Konsaki)
ROFL  rotfl.gif

"ROFL" @ CommissionedComic
(A webcomic that also features a Shadowrunesque storyline!)
Butterblume
Gosu is korean expression. At that time it was believed to mean something like 'cool, outstanding'. That was the time when korean people started to hang out in the internet 30h a day.

Edit: somehow I couldn't think of it, but gosu also meant AWESOME. At least for us non-koreans nyahnyah.gif.
lorechaser
QUOTE (SL James)
Until the sex stopped, anyway.

But I can't help but think of how the idea of English purity is tossed around whenever something like this is in the news. As someone mentioned on rpg.net several months ago, "English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words... We pursue other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

We do indeed, we do indeed.

And I understand that language is defined by those who speak it.

But that doesn't mean we can't rail against the changes. If people show enough outage, the public perception might change (HA!).

I imagine people felt like this when contractions became an accepted part of the language as well. But if we don't have people outraged by this sort of thing, the terrorists have already won.

Or something.
Butterblume
It's probably not international knowledge, but the german language experiences a reformation right now (well, actually since the last 10 years, and it is still going on).

Sometimes it gets pretty hilariuos. The other german posters here know what I am talking about, the rest... just use your imagination.
SL James
It just prolongs the inevitable.

Then again, I just read a review accusing Happy Feet of being atheo-communist-liberal propaganda (literally, he used the word propaganda) followed by the reviewer replying to every third refutation so that he would get the last word, so given that conflict is inevitable because it's part of human nature, I just want the debates to get violent. At least then it'll be amusing to watch.

It'd be a great day for the world when someone gets their ass beaten for using the word "pwned" in an academic setting.

QUOTE (Butterblume)
It's probably not international knowledge, but the german language experiences a reformation right now (well, actually since the last 10 years, and it is still going on).

Sometimes it gets pretty hilariuos. The other german posters here know what I am talking about, the rest... just use your imagination.

Hell, people in this country can communicate via completely different forms of English, and yet there are people who want to make it the official language and all that crap. So I can imagine all sorts of things that would make most people's eyes bleed. Although I have heard about this. I would wish you the best, but... See above.
mmu1
QUOTE (SL James)
But I can't help but think of how the idea of English purity is tossed around whenever something like this is in the news. As someone mentioned on rpg.net several months ago, "English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words... We pursue other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

There's a big difference between borrowing words from other languages (expanding the language) and trends like this one, which make the language one uses increasingly primitive and reduce the ability to convey (and think about) complex ideas.

Screw purity - slang can be great, but only as an addition to a language, not as a replacement.
SL James
How is permitting new vocabulary diluting the language? It's not like people are writing treatises on ontological empiricism in text messages. How does using a commonly-accepted shorthand for words without much subtext or multiple meanings more primitive? That's like exactly the same thing as suggesting that because I've used shorthand to refer to specific items in a timed test that my answer was somehow intellectually primitive.

Or am I mistaken in thinking that there's only one context in which "ur" or "u" applies?

Besides that, what it comes down to in many cases is merely a drift in the spelling of existing vocabulary, which is pretty common for English anyway.
Kagetenshi
"Permitting new vocabulary" isn't diluting the language, that's a straw man—it's like saying "how is permitting new ingredients diluting the soup" when the new ingredients we're talking about is forty gallons of water.

I'm not going to get into what is and is not dilution right now, because it's a complex question and I don't have a lot of time, but the question that should always be asked when adding vocabulary is "what does this enable the language to do?". The other question is, of course, "what will it cost?"

You'll have to forgive me if I think paying a meaningful readability price in exchange for shaving off two letters is "dilution".

(Note: obviously, the cost is of those two letters is dramatically larger for poor input methods like morse code or most cell-phone interfaces. Nevertheless, radio operators have managed to survive for quite some time without bringing their slang into academic papers. This section is poorly thought-out, if it contains issues please point them out and I'll try to clarify when I have more time.)

~J
lorechaser
QUOTE (SL James @ Nov 28 2006, 12:48 PM)
That's like exactly the same thing as suggesting that because I've used shorthand to refer to specific items in a timed test that my answer was somehow intellectually primitive.

And I will say that it was.

Unless that shorthand is an accepted acronym, then your answer is intellectually less valuable than someone that expresses themselves using full words.

if i dont use punctuation or capitalization because its faster its the same thing

If I don't worry about pesky subject verb agreement, and simply write everything in a derivative present tense (Yes, I made that up. The irony), it's intellectually primitive.

Doesn't mean my point isn't taken.

I could write:

i think language change all time cause stuf happens, moer makes things new. more people talk ne language better so more people talk at all.

That sentence, I think, gets the point across. And yet it is a horrible sentence.

It's pride in artistry. It's whether you think the art of writing has any value, or whether you think it's purely a medium for communicating information.

I argue that as the world becomes more and more textual, the art of writing is far *more* important than ever before.

I know 99.9999999% percent of you only via interactions on this message board forum. I associate certain traits and attributes with you based on your text-based communications. If your posts are liberally scattered with "ur" "lolz" and "ne1" I assume that you are either too lazy to type an entire word, or unaware that there are real alternatives. Both are not a good sign to me.

But if the only value in these posts is the message, "lolz, ur dum 2 think ne1 doezn't no txt" is just as valid as "And really, I don't think there's a reasonable person on the planet that can't figure out what someone writing in text is saying...."
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Then again, I just read a review accusing Happy Feet of being atheo-communist-liberal propaganda (literally, he used the word propaganda) followed by the reviewer replying to every third refutation so that he would get the last word


Wow. That's impressive.

BTW, how does one make atheo-communist-liberal propoganda? I'm really curious.

Liberal: The position that people should be allowed to do what they individually want, especially with money.
Example: Richard Nixon.

Communist: The position that thestate should make the major economic decisions.
Example: Che Guevara

I suppose it's possible to be "socially" liberal and "economically" communist - but how do you convey that with a bunch of dancing penguins and bad hip-hop music?

-Frank
BishopMcQ
I think the Lion Seals were supposed to represent a neo-fascist, conservative regime which preyed on the weak and defenseless without care for repercussions. Of course, I haven't seen the movie, so I'm not exactly sure....
lorechaser
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE
Then again, I just read a review accusing Happy Feet of being atheo-communist-liberal propaganda (literally, he used the word propaganda) followed by the reviewer replying to every third refutation so that he would get the last word


Wow. That's impressive.

BTW, how does one make atheo-communist-liberal propoganda? I'm really curious.

Liberal: The position that people should be allowed to do what they individually want, especially with money.
Example: Richard Nixon.

Communist: The position that thestate should make the major economic decisions.
Example: Che Guevara

I suppose it's possible to be "socially" liberal and "economically" communist - but how do you convey that with a bunch of dancing penguins and bad hip-hop music?

-Frank

The Atheo part is because the main character is apparently chided for not worshipping the Penguin God.

I think they are using liberal in the "welfare state" sense. Liberals don't necessarily want you to do what you want with your money - that's a conservative view. Liberals tend to want to use government moneys to help out the disadvantaged, where as conservatives tend to say "let them get a job with me, as long as I have my money in my pocket, not theirs, I'll pay them better." So communist-liberal would, I think, be an uneducated or needlessly aggressive way of saying "Socialist."

Libertarians tend to be the "Keep your laws outta my personal life (liberal) and my money (conservative)" types.

FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Liberals don't necessarily want you to do what you want with your money - that's a conservative view. Liberals tend to want to use government moneys to help out the disadvantaged, where as conservatives tend to say "let them get a job with me, as long as I have my money in my pocket, not theirs, I'll pay them better."


What the fuck are you talking about?

Classical Liberalism

-Frank
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (SL James)
"English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words... We pursue other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

So someone stole a footnote from one of Terry Pratchett's books, huh?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
QUOTE (SL James @ Nov 28 2006, 04:33 PM)
"English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words... We pursue other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

So someone stole a footnote from one of Terry Pratchett's books, huh?

It's originally James Nicoll:

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

He's a Canadian. The quote is used often enough that Pratchet used it as well.

-Frank
Mr. Unpronounceable
Well, learn something new every day.
SL James
I guess so. It's been long enough that if I didn't have a copy of the poster, I would never be able to find where it was in thar monstrosity of a thread.
SL James
QUOTE (lorechaser)
QUOTE (SL James @ Nov 28 2006, 12:48 PM)
That's like exactly the same thing as suggesting that because I've used shorthand to refer to specific items in a timed test that my answer was somehow intellectually primitive.

And I will say that it was.

Unless that shorthand is an accepted acronym, then your answer is intellectually less valuable than someone that expresses themselves using full words.

It was, although not necessarily acronyms.
Lindt
Your right. We are doomed. I'm taking my laptop and my shotgun and heading up the side of that there mountain. See ya in the afterlife. If thats the future, I want NO part of it.
Phucking kids these days don't know how to type full words anymore... Now get off my lawn!
Grinder
QUOTE (Butterblume)
It's probably not international knowledge, but the german language experiences a reformation right now (well, actually since the last 10 years, and it is still going on).

Sometimes it gets pretty hilariuos. The other german posters here know what I am talking about, the rest... just use your imagination.

Some new ideas are good, some are bad. But the way the "reformation" is set in place is so.... german... sarcastic.gif
Warmaster Lah
I always appreciated the fact that English is quite the adaptable language. It seems to be easier to come up with newer and strange words in our nice 26 letter alphabet than say Mandarin.

I understand why rules are needed for the language, even why some obsess about correct grammar. Me, I always had a hard time with grammar and spelling. Especially when I was younger, thats why I dont really sweat this kind of thing that much.

As a child I liked to spell words a certain way, because of the look and "feel" of the letters. It was an incredible Obsessive Compulsive thing. I sometimes wrote sentences a certain way because they felt "right" to me like that. And I knew full well the right way to do it, but the pull of the OCD on a lil boy can be strong. (^_^). I dont think my teachers ever realized what the real problem was. I figured out to conform to the rules, but it never jived with me that well.

So these days I figure if I can understand the person, what they are trying to express, and they act cordial to me, thats good enough for me. It still irks me these days to see people get jumped on for their grammar mistakes or an incorrectly spelled word, since I know everyone's background is different, and process things differently. It makes me really sad to see someone beat themselves up over a mistake too.

Still, the text short hand issue doesn't seem as much a question of using correct grammar, rather it seems more of a social etiquette issue. I mean short hand is one thing but ROFL and LOL on a test is sort of like disrespect. Thats were I see the problem lies.
eidolon
That's kinda funny actually. I'm always amazed at the simplicity of word structure in Mandarin. Different outlooks I guess. smile.gif
Bull
As this has absolutely nothing to do with Shadowrun, I'd suggest find a way to make it relevant or let the thread die off.

In either case, play nice smile.gif


Bull
Fortune
So, how much do you think the various common languages would have changed in the intervening time between now and 2070? Would there be two almost seperate types of written English (ctytxt?), or would this type of thing be all pervasive, even among the corporate community?
Kagetenshi
By canon, written language is in decline. Speech and iconography are the Shadowrun textspeak.

~J
mfb
yeah. no reason to write out LOL when you can actually laugh out loud without disturbing the guy in the next cubicle.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Butterblume)
Some years back I had a girlfriend who actually used terms like 'lol', 'rofl' or 'gosu' in oral conversation.

I chose to find it cute instead of disturbing twirl.gif.

Ha!
My fiancee says things like "woot" and "pwn", but I don't think that counts. They're at least sort-of-words, not acronyms.
The only one that bothers me is when she says "sigh". You don't have to say "sigh", you just do it!
Moon-Hawk
Oops, I should say something about Shadowrun, too.
They do mention that many people are illiterate, by our standards. However, even in the case of the educated and literate, I would imagine that most people's penmanship is atrocious. I mean, more than it already is today. How often would someone in SR actually put pen to paper and write something?
Konsaki
When you dont want it hacked...
nezumi
They say words are replaced with iconography. What's the icon for "lol"? biggrin.gif ?
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Konsaki)
When you dont want it hacked...

Like what kinds of things does the average person in SR need to commit to paper that does not touch an electronic device at any time?
I'm not talking about a super-secret hand-written note from Fixer to runner, I'm talking about the other 99% of the population or bizarre contrived situation, I'm talking about regular usage.
Personally, I almost never write. I write little notes to myself, but that would definitely go into the comlink, or just told to your AR personal assistant program running on your 'link. A little bit of my handwriting is filling out legal documents and such, but that would all be using digital forms in SR. I'd say 95% of my handwriting is either for gaming notes, or for work. And I only sketch things out on paper at work because I, unlike SR, don't have a VR design environment.
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