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Mistwalker
I don't have a huge issue with the GM bending the rules a bit (like increasing NPC dice pools), to keep the story moving along, not just to keep a certain key NPC alive.

As a GM, I have done so.

I don't do it to abuse the characters, and dont' use it that often, but have done it in the past and have no doubt that I will do so in the futur.

Now, I have also done the opposite, and instead of allowing and increadibly lucky roll of the dice tell me that I have just done 22 DV to the already 6 points of damage char, I have adjusted it to just enough to put them on the verge of death, uncouncious, bleeding to death and on the ground. If the player had purposely placed his torso of the end of the barrel of a main battle tank, then he get's what he deserves. But not from just bad luck.

To me, that is part of the GMs job. Keep the game fun and interesting.
Cain
QUOTE
Now, I have also done the opposite, and instead of allowing and increadibly lucky roll of the dice tell me that I have just done 22 DV to the already 6 points of damage char, I have adjusted it to just enough to put them on the verge of death, uncouncious, bleeding to death and on the ground. If the player had purposely placed his torso of the end of the barrel of a main battle tank, then he get's what he deserves. But not from just bad luck.

Except that's also a (slightly metagamed) house rule. Namely: "If you guys agree, I won't kill off your characters, unless you do something terminally stupid." If your players are of the "Let the dice fall where they may" camp, then you're doing them a disservice. (And yes, I currently know several players who prefer to let their character die than suffer a single fudged die roll. I don't get it myself, but if I'm GMing for them, I have to respect their desires.)
Charon
I don't fudge to keep the story along ; the the rolls tells a good part of the story! Leave them alone!

Insanely great and poor rolls are responsible for over 50% of the comic relief and nail biting drama of any adventure, both coming from the PC and the NPCs.

And the knowledge that the best laid plans can get FUBARed by lady luck is what makes a successful plan rewarding for the players.

If you can always count on the GM to "put the story back on track", which litterrally means you are railroading the PC, than what merit do they have when they are successful?

---

Obviously, the fact that I make the story on the fly make me more zen about the player wrecking my 30 seconds worth of preparation. I never have anything more prepared than NPCs, their motivations and a basic situation that covers only the beginning of the session.

If the PCs didn't come up with crazy ideas, I'd have very little twists, and if critical rolls (both for the PC and NPCs) didn't routinely fail, I'd have very little complications.

But you can only count on PCs for crazy ideas and on the dice to screw them up.
SL James
Sometimes the Gaming Gods demand a sacrifice. Unfortunately, I am and game with a lot of players like that, but it's come to our attention that something is wrong for the number of runs that go off with virtually no casualties (and very rare serious casualties or deaths).
mfb
i voted for predictability because it's the closest synonym listed for consistency. rules should make sense internally, whether or not they're realistic, complex, varied, fair, or whatever.
Mistwalker
I am not saying to have a Deux Machina make sure that every player survive every little scrap they get into.

I am saying that I will probably fudge the roll when lady luck get's ridiculous, and when the players can't see the fudge.

Players do die, but I dislike it when a character that has been around for months, dies just because of the dice gods.

If the normal play is that characters are changed every couple of months, then having a character die is no big deal, but when you are playing long term campaign style, having a character die due to bad dice rolls has a larger impact.

In one of the groups I play with, we have some characters that have been around since 1st ed. To lose one of those, simply due to bad dice rolls, would be a travesty to the players, even the ones that say to let the chips fall where they may.

Just my two cents, IMMV.
SL James
QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Dec 3 2006, 03:14 PM)
Players do die, but I dislike it when a character that has been around for months, dies just because of the dice gods.

If the normal play is that characters are changed every couple of months, then having a character die is no big deal, but when you are playing long term campaign style, having a character die due to bad dice rolls has a larger impact.

Oh well.

I really don't take it personally, because like someone said about Steve Irwin (or rpg.net), Real Life has the cruelest hit chart. Unpredictable catastophe happens, the good guys die, and the world is a cruel place that doesn't much care for professional criminals. Dying is an omnipresent occupational hazard, and while everyone wants to go out in a dramatic blaze of glory, sometimes you get stabbed in the heart by a stingray when you're not looking.

Besides, it's Shadowrun. Shadowrunners are supposed to die every once in a while. Hence the various purges of old shadowtalk runners, and the "street level" "grittiness" that SR4 is supposed to facilitate. In what is sold as a fickle and uncaring setting, shit happens to your PC and yet miraculously the world goes on, in most cases not giving a fuck.
hyzmarca
A character who has an Edge rating can always HOG on a bad roll. It becomes a choice between losing a point of Edge and being forced to make a karma investment to regain it and starting over completely. If the player thinks that the character is worth the karma investment required to regain the Edge then he will HOG. It is as simple as that. There is no need to fudge rolls unless the PC has already burnt all of his Edge, a rather unlikely scenario and one deserving of a horrific death.

The great thing about the HOG rule is that it gives the GM an excuse (and often no choice but to) completely change the direction of the campaign or take a short break from the primary theme in favor something different. Heck, if done right the PC in question can earn enough karma to restore his lost Edge while recovering from the circumstances of the HOG (being captured, becoming a wanted criminal as opposed to an anonymous criminal, a game of high-stakes poker with Death and several other powerful supernatural entities on the metaplanes with each chip representing a week of your life.)
cx2
Okay, my opinion:
For me the rules themself are for a mixture of realism and ease of use, as much ease for players as the GM.

Without the SR rules framework we would have nothing. With it we have a good solid basis, and if you need to bodge together rules on the fly you have an easy format available.

Mixture could be mixed in with realism in a way I guess. It wouldn't be realistic for a decker to use the exact same dice rolls for hacking a host as shooting someone. I know the dice pool mechanics are identical, but the dice pools are different thus realism brings mixture.
Charon
QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Dec 3 2006, 04:14 PM)
Players do die, but I dislike it when a character that has been around for months, dies just because of the dice gods.

How else is a PC gonna die?

Unless a PC is killed by GM's whim, a PC death is always the result of the dice gods failing him.

It's like saying you love poker but don't accept that the fact that the deck will sometime turn on you.

In both case, smart decisions can stack the odds in your favor while stupid moves force you to get lucky, but it just wouldn't be the same fun game without that element of randomness.

Without the occasional PC death caused by bad rolls, you have no stakes. How do you generate tension on a crucial roll if the players know you'll bail them out if they fail.
SL James
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Dec 3 2006, 04:14 PM)
A character who has an Edge rating can always HOG on a bad roll. It becomes a choice between losing a point of Edge and being forced to make a karma investment to regain it and starting over completely. If the player thinks that the character is worth the karma investment required to regain the Edge then he will HOG. It is as simple as that. There is no need to fudge rolls unless the PC has already burnt all of his Edge, a rather unlikely scenario and one deserving of a horrific death.

Horrific... or hilarious?

QUOTE
a game of high-stakes poker with Death and several other powerful supernatural entities on the metaplanes with each chip representing a week of your life.)

You win Shadowrun.

QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Dec 3 2006, 04:14 PM)
Players do die, but I dislike it when a character that has been around for months, dies just because of the dice gods.

How else is a PC gonna die?

Suicide is painless...
Mistwalker
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Dec 3 2006, 04:14 PM)
Players do die, but I dislike it when a character that has been around for months, dies just because of the dice gods.

How else is a PC gonna die?

Unless a PC is killed by GM's whim, a PC death is always the result of the dice gods failing him.

It's like saying you love poker but don't accept that the fact that the deck will sometime turn on you.

In both case, smart decisions can stack the odds in your favor while stupid moves force you to get lucky, but it just wouldn't be the same fun game without that element of randomness.

Without the occasional PC death caused by bad rolls, you have no stakes. How do you generate tension on a crucial roll if the players know you'll bail them out if they fail.

Shakes his head.

I am not saying that every fight I will bail the players out. Actually it is rare for me to do so. There is a possibility that I will do so on a ridiculous dice roll, and now with SR4 edges rules, if they are out of edge.

Players do die. They can die from accumulated damage from trying to fight too many guards and mages, from being at ground zero for too many grenades, etc...

I just dislike it when an extreme range, over the shoulder shot from a hold-out manages to take out the cybered and armored to the gills troll.
Charon
QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Dec 3 2006, 08:47 PM)
I just dislike it when an extreme range, over the shoulder shot from a hold-out manages to take out the cybered and armored to the gills troll.

And I find it hilarious.

Bet you the gaming group remember that death far more vividly than a more standard one.

And it's that kind of brutal unexpected death that really but the thrill into the game. Death by accumulated damage? Pff.

---

What I meant, btw, is that when you die, it's ALWAYS because the die failed. If you do something dumb and pick a fight you shouldn't be able to win, you could still get very lucky. And if you don't... we'll the dice let you down. It's just more likely in some situation then others.

But why would I pick and choose when it's acceptable to let the PC die because the dice failed him?

---

Finally, fudging to save a PC is a slippery slope. Why that PC and not that one? Where do you draw the line and more importantly will all the player accept it evenly when you save one player and let the other die?
Cain
QUOTE
I am not saying that every fight I will bail the players out. Actually it is rare for me to do so. There is a possibility that I will do so on a ridiculous dice roll, and now with SR4 edges rules, if they are out of edge.

Players do die. They can die from accumulated damage from trying to fight too many guards and mages, from being at ground zero for too many grenades, etc...

I just dislike it when an extreme range, over the shoulder shot from a hold-out manages to take out the cybered and armored to the gills troll.

First of all, a rules nitpick. HoG doesn't use up your Edge pool, it burns your Edge stat. Which are two totally spearate beasts. So, unless they have an Edge stat of 0, there is absolutely no way they can be permanently killed.

I don't need to fudge on player's dice pools, for that reason. Barring some hideously unfair use of GM fiat, they can just burn that Edge and get away.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Cain)
First of all, a rules nitpick. HoG doesn't use up your Edge pool, it burns your Edge stat. Which are two totally spearate beasts. So, unless they have an Edge stat of 0, there is absolutely no way they can be permanently killed.

Well, if we're being nitpicky, the "Escape Certain Death" use of Edge is what you're describing. "Hand of God" is the analgous mechanic that applies only to NPCs.
Cain
You're right. Sorry, I'm still in SR3 mode. cool.gif
laughingowl
I voted predictability though in truth fairness is why predictability is the reason for rules.

Rules are to provide a common understood way to determine the outcome. (as opposed to cowboys and indians on whom ever screams the loudest and then punches the other person out smile.gif (though I guess those qualify as rules).


Rules provide a predictable (which then in truth become atleast semi-'fair') way to determine the outcome.

I would prefer constitant rather then predictable, but in general If X+Y=Z, then X+Y should always equal Z.
PlatonicPimp
This sort of discussion of rpg theory is what http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/ is for, if one really gets a kick out of this thing. Its all about RPG design, and one of the big questions are always what the rules are for. In essence, what they are for depends on the game.
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