In my continueation of re-hashing old topics, the most definitely, most interesting topic ever posted was started by Doc Funkenstein. The alternative Magic Build Point System. Although I don't have the original work, I have my own version that was based on his initial contribution. It was a work-backwards system to insure that all current character types cost the same. Ie: An Adepts, Sorcerer, Conjurer, Full Mage, Shamanist, Elementalist, etc, all still 'cost' the same in this system as the Canon system (25 for all except Full Magicians which cost 30). The exception being the Magician Adept, which costs more in this system, but gets alot more too.

• Magical Talent - (PreRequisites: None) : 5 pts
  The character begins with a Magic Score of 1. He must purchase this Quality in order to purchase any of the other Magical qualities presented in this Build Point (BP) System. You must choose your tradition at this point, even as an Adept.
  
  
• Increased Magic - (PreReq: Magical Talent) : 1/level
  To start your character with a Magic rating of up to 6, you may purchase up to 5 levels of the Quality. Any loss of Essence is removed from the Magic Rating purchased, so to remain magical and have any cyberware, you must purchase this Quality or have a Geasa to protect the Magic Rating.
  
  
• Adept - (PreReq: Magical Talent) : 3pts
  This Quality allows a character to purchase Power Points that can be spent on Adept powers. This does not grant you any Adept Powers, simply allows you the option of purchasing those Power Points using the Power Point Quality below.
  
  
• Magician - (PreReq: Magical Talent) : 2pts
  This allows you to purchase the Qualities of Conjuring and Sorcery. The Quality does not confer any magical abilities itself, simply offers you the chance to buy the Conjuring and Sorcery Qualities listed below.
  
  
• Astral Perception - (PreReq: Magical Talent) : 3pts
  The character can see into, and thus interact with the Astral Plane. While Astrally Perceiving the character is Dual Natured, so may be attacked from the Astral Plane.
  
  
• Astral Projection - (PreReq: Astral Perception) : 2pts
  In addition to being able to perceive into the Astral Plane, the character can now also project his essence into the Astral Plane as per the rules for Astral Projection.
  
  
• Power Point - (PreReq: Adept) : 2/level
  At the cost of 2 per Power Point, up to the Magic Rating of the character, the character may gain Power Points for the purpose of buying Adept Powers. The Adept Power 'Magical Power' may not be purchased with these Power Points. To cast spells, you must pay to be a Magician and take the Sorcery Quality. You may, however, buy the Adept power of Astral Perception, though it is undoubtedly cheaper to by Astral Perception with BPs in this system. As with purchasing Magic Points, any Magic Loss will soak up Power Points before you can use them. Thus, if you lose 2 points of Magic at character creation, you will need to purchase at least 3 Power Points in order to gain 1. 4 Power points to gain 2 in the same example.
  
  
• Sorcery - (PreReq: Magician) : varies
  There are 3 levels to Sorcery.
  
  The First level only allows you to dispel spells and cost 1BP. Once you have the 1st level, you may spend BP on the Sorcery Skill in order to dispel or cast spells.
  
  The second level costs 2BP and allows you to cast spells from a single category of spells. If you follow a shamanic Tradition, you may cast spells from all the categories that your Totem gives you bonuses to, but gain no bonuses from your Totem. The negatives of the Totem counteract the bonus spell categories.
  
  The 3rd level of Sorcery costs 4BP and allows you to cast spells from all the categories. Both levels require that you first buy the spells with the Spell Points Quality below.
  
  
• Conjuring - (PreReq: Magician) : varies
  There are 3 levels of Conjuring.
  
  The 1st level of Conjuring costs 1BP and allows you to conjure Watchers and attempt to Control or Banish any spirits. Once you have at least the first level of the Conjuring Quality, you may purchase the Conjuring Active skill.
  
  The 2nd level of Conjuring costs 2BP and allows you to conjure spirits from 1 category out of a Tradition. If you belong to a Shamanic Tradition, you may conjure all the spirits of your Totem, but gain no bonuses to the conjuring of those Totem spirits, the negatives of the totem counteracting the additional categories. This level of Conjuring can be bought multiple times to allow conjuring of spirits from multiple Traditions. The first purchase of this level must be used to conjure spirits from your own Tradition.
  
  The 3rd level costs 4BP and allows you to conjure all spirits of a Tradition. This level of Conjuring can be bought multiple times to allow conjuring of spirits from multiple Traditions. The first purchase of this level must be used to conjure spirits from your own Tradition.
  
  
• Spell Points - (PreReq: Magical Talent) : 1/5pts
  Every level of this Quality gives the character 5 spell points that can be used for purchasing spells, or bonding Foci. Spell points gained in this fashion may not be used to Initiate.
  
  
• DualNatured - Magical Talent : -3pts
  This Flaw gives you points back for being Dual Natured, due to the dangers of always being astrally active. It counts againt the limit of Flaws a character may have. Magical characters may not buy the SURGE flaw of Dual Natured in this BP system. This does NOT give the character Astral Perception though, you must still purchase Astral Perception if you wish to see into the Astral Plane. This flaw only makes you Dual Natured,and without Astral Perception, you will not be aware of who, or what, is attacking you, should you be attacked via the Astral Plane.
  
  
• Path of Righ - PreRequisites: Elf, 4 points in Sorcery, 12 points in Conjuring for Nature Spirits, Elementals, and Spirit of the Elements : 2BP
  In addition to the above requisites, the character must spend a minimum of 40BP on Magic at character creation. Taking the Path of Righ gives you a +4, similar to a Totem modifier, to all spell-casting.
  
  
• Karma Expenditures: Post Character Creation, players may spend 10 points per 'BP' to advance their magic potential. This would allow Aspected type magicians to become Full Magicians. Path of Righ is only available at character creation.

Do you have any precedent for a person or critter being dual natured without having Astral Perception? My initial reaction is negative, but if it's been done before in canon I might not mind so much.

Otherwise, I dislike the fact that this system allows "partial" magic-users (less than Magic 6-loss, etc.), but that being the purpose of the system it just means it isn't for me.

~J

Backwards compatible it may be, but points efficiency still demands a full mage. To little incentive to reduce your potential.

Kage, you can alter the rules to create a Pre-Requisite of Astral Perception to gain that flaw. The idea was that, since the cost to Surge (5BP) balances against the flaw of Dual Natured (-5BP) that to move Dual Natured into a non-surge flaw (for groups that prefer to avoid the anime-style Surge encourages) the costs should counter-balance, that or allow Dual Natured to give Astral Perception and cost 0BP. (I just don't like 0BP ideas)

Ryu: With this system, none of our characters are 'full mage' anymore. However, with this system I've seen a Sun Shaman summon Fire Elementals, an Adept Astrally Project, and of course, the much more sensable option to BP your spell points instead of pay cash, is often 'abused', though I've also seen Conjurers forgo that cost entirely.....

Yes Glyph, 10 points for level 6. Sory bout that.

Wow... 10 point aspected conjurer would be wicked badass.

Magical Talent 5
Increased Magic 5
Magician 2
Astral Perception 3
Astral Projection 2
Conjuring 6 10
(29)

Can summon up a wind spirit and a salamander, have a few elementals on call, ask the advice of an ansester spirit, and then call on a loa to break faces for him.

I will never be a fan of PhyAds with astral projection. Something about how they're supposed to use magic to influence themselves, not things outside them, rubs me the wrong way.

Lindt. You think the cost is not enough? Exponential vs Incremental perhaps? 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 instead of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10? Something between? 2, 4, 8, 12, 16?

Pig Man, actually Astral Projection in arts that mirror Adepts (spiritual body masters like Yoga) is quite common. More common for what you'd imagine an Adept could do than some of the other things they're capable of.

I'd rather see them have Astral Projection than Distance Strike (or Improved Social Skills!).

Why all the hatred for Distance Strike? Don't you know that Empty Force has been exploited by McNinjas and other charlatans.

And that doesn't even cover Radical Ki

That last one reads like it was written by a gamer, with all of the talk about "raising your stats".

It kind of depends. For point build games with higher allocations of points, such as 145 or 150, it can be high-powered, since you could conceivably spend the 45 points to be a full mage/adept and still have all of the points that you need for other things. But personally, I think you are going to skew things at such high point builds anyways - and you would be better off starting PCs off at, say, 130 plus x amount of karma to spend. At most point builds, it will balance itself out, since it is more of a sacrifice at lower point builds, plus the ultra-mage in question will be even MORE of a karma sink.

So I don't think it's really that unbalanced, but Lindt is right about the improved levels of conjuring. Right now, it seems a bit too easy to get an ultra-conjuror. Summoning any kind of spirit is a HUGE advantage! Even a shaman who can summon one type of elemental, or hermetic who can also summon spirits of man, is someone with a big magical edge.

Perhaps it should simply be 2, 4, +4 where the +4 is full access to any one other Tradition. So, for 8 points you're a full Hermetic and Shamanic, for 4 more you could summon a Lao Spirit, 4 more the tradition of Wuxing, 4 more Thought Forms of the Psi, etc. That seems fairer, and more in-line with costs instead of lumping everything into a single category, no?

Ohh yeah. I like that. It means that normal costs still apply, but you have the ability to splurge and get access to one full category for a fair cost.

So at that point someone wanting to go nutso would need:

Magical Talent 5
Increased Magic 5
Magician 2
Astral Perception 3
Astral Projection 2
Conjuring 4 (Shaman)
+4 (hermetic)
+4 (Wuxing)
+4 (voodoo)
+4 ect ect...

Its just going to get cost prohibitive, yet still be possible. Fantastic.

I might though add a +2 (summon one specific type) as well. Its just enough to have an edge, but not over powering. Shaman with an air elemental, or wuxing with a city spirit.

Agreed. Keep it in 2 point increments so that someone could be a Fire Shaman who can summon Fire Elementals and Salamaders but nothing else...

The strange thing in our group... nobody has Conjuring past the 2nd level. A Psi that can only summon Thought Forms, and a few that can only conjur Watchers, but no conjuring abuse, or even usage....

Eh, some people don't like having an army at their beck and call I guess. You all ready know I like aspected conjurers =p

Yeah, I really like how that all works now. Ill be implementing it in my own game as soon as they finish finals.

We added a couple more rules. Have an Elf in-game that wanted to be on the Path of Righ.

Path of Righ - PreRequisites: Elf, 4 points in Sorcery, 12 points in Conjuring for Nature Spirits, Elementals, and Spirit of the Elements : 2BP
In addition to the above requisites, the character must spend a minimum of 40BP on Magic at character creation. Taking the Path of Righ gives you a +4, similar to a Totem modifier, to all spell-casting.

Karma Expenditures: Post Character Creation, players may spend 10 points per 'BP' to advance their magic potential. This would allow Aspected type magicians to become Full Magicians. Path of Righ is only available at character creation.