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Butterblume
QUOTE (Konsaki)
Course the game store was mainly minatures but the owner would order anything you wanted, usually at a 10% discount so he could still make a profit and provide a bonus to his customers that buy stuff through him. (He paid 60% standard listed price and sold it to me at 90%) Another reason I would go there is to play the minature games or board games with a bunch of friends on Saturdays. I would spend 12-13 hours there on average just hanging out.
It also helped that he had wall to wall weaponry: swords, knives, polearms and airmaster guns. Most of them were fake for idiots to buy, but he had a select few that were true weapons, which we would drool over but didnt really have the money on hand to buy them.
I also found a P&P group there, which I had alot of fun with that group before I moved.

Stores like that are worth saving, aka buying there. Others, not so much.

I remember three good stores, ordered chronologically:

-Small store, mainly board games, smaller section for RPGs, miniatures, fantasy books and stuff. Very friendly woman as owner, and located near my University, good prices. I left over a thousand Deutsche Mark (500 euro) there in one year.
(This store still exists, more than a dozen years later)

- Really Big Store, had everything: Board Games, RPGs, Table tops, miniatures, trading card games and lots of related things. Big playing area for customers, special events like tournaments for trading card games or tabletops. Staff not that friendly, but mostly well informed (important in the old times when the internet wasn't what it is today).
(still exists I hear, a decade later, but has moved from almost downtown to a less expensive neighborhood)

- Big Store, actually a comic store. Lots of obscure things, but also lots of RPG stuff, miniatures, Games etc. Small gaming area, mostly overrun by kids playing trading card games. Only 5 minutes on foot from where I lived, which was a huge advantage wink.gif.
(even if I don't live there anymore, I sometimes visit the store when I am in town to visit friends)

I half-remember more than a half dozen stores that didn't impress me, and which died...
Smilin_Jack
The last actual RPG book I bought was the SR4 BBB over at the barnes and noble across from a hotel in Florida, travelling from site to site for work over the past couple of years hasn't left me any time for face to face games, so I've ended up playing online - either PBeM, PBP, or the occasional openRPG game.

I haven't stepped into a FLGS since I started travelling for work. I either have to order online from Amazon or do a special order in a store (which may or may not get to that location in time for me to pick up again before I leave). I'd much rather order from FanPro (provided I know where my next assignment will be - so I can have it shipped there), than deal with the corporate behemoth that is Amazon (change of address post ordering - or getting the place it was shipped to is a fraggin PITA).

Lindt
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 18 2006, 04:25 PM)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 19 2006, 07:18 AM)
First, you're again assuming that he likes the fluff. He hasn't said that. Maybe it's true, maybe not—I don't know, and that's part of why I'm asking.

If he doesn't like the fluff, and even potentially if he does, though, I find it a difficult position to understand, so I'm looking for an explanation of his motivations. One that, with all due respect, you probably won't be able to decisively provide smile.gif (unless he's explained it elsewhere and you can link me to that?)

Oh, I know I can't really speak for him (and in reality I'm not actually trying to do that). But I'm here, and the discussion is not limited solely to the two of you. wink.gif

My point is that, if he doesn't like SR4 (and that seems to be the case), it is more than likely the new rules themselves that are the problem. Since he plays Shadowun (or at least hangs out here), there must be something that is pleasing to him about the game. If it isn't the rules, then we are mostly left with the Setting and Fluff.

*looks up*

Ah yep. Thats about right. I dont especially like the sr4 rules set, but Im pretty happy with the 2070 setting going on right now. So its sr3 rules in 2070 for me. Untill such a time where Im either forced via my players or I get the money/time to get back out to GenCon to run game for FanPro, I dont really give a rats ass about the rules, but seeing as I own the Sr4 core book (an autographed LE no less) and Street Magic, I DO like to keep tabs on SOTA. Im also trying to avoid what happened when I got 'back' into sr (I started playing during the end part of Sr2, then skipped a few years) and ended up buying the entire mess of add-on books almost all at once.
Kagetenshi
Fair enough. For my part, as many problems as I have with the rules, I would have pegged the setting as the biggest negative. The dangers of extrapolating from one datapoint.

~J
Lindt
Fair enough.

Ok, back to the discussion fellas.
Caine Hazen
The FLGS *is* a necessity for certain portions of the industry to survive. There are many games I wouldn't buy or play if I didn't head into my shop and play them on a weekly basis. They also serve as a launching point for gamers to meet one another. Some people see this as a negative thing and stay in their basement ordering books and socializing behind the anonymity of an IRC or chat client game and that is fine. But I see it as a social medium far beyond that.

As I see it however, and has been stated, FanPro's new online store doesn't really hurt the FLGS. It just provides an extra outlet for some people who don't have that option (or just want to avoid it) to get their Srun fix. And it undercuts the middleman, making the FP crew more money... gods know that I can respect sticking it to Diamond/Alliance (not that I've worked any around the industry...)

Plus without my shop where would I get my monthly Missions fix at???
eidolon
I really would like to see my FLGS as a social medium, but after several attempts I've given up. Which is sad, because hey, I loves me a gaming store. But I don't pay full cover price for books/games/etc. when there's an option, and they don't sell used stuff. Given those, the only thing left to draw me would be the social aspect, and at this particular store it seems to be...lacking.

[ Spoiler ]


I'd even like to say that I go there for product inspiration, but between TMP for minis, Amazon and Ebay for books, BGG for board games, and several manufacturers' sites for misc stuff, I usually know more about what's coming up with my current "gaming interest of the week" before they do. *shrug*
nezumi
QUOTE (Caine Hazen)
The FLGS *is* a necessity for certain portions of the industry to survive. There are many games I wouldn't buy or play if I didn't head into my shop and play them on a weekly basis.

So the necessary part of the industry they serve is you?

QUOTE
They also serve as a launching point for gamers to meet one another.


I agree, bookstores COULD be good for that. But none of the bookstores I've been to are, and I've found better areas on my own. The best STORE I've found for that sort of a spot has been a coffee shop, which doesn't sell gaming books at all.
Caine Hazen
nah nezumi, ther are a lot of gaming companies that couldn't exist without FLGS. This is why WK implemented some of their steps to head off the secondary market on ebay, and give incentives to people who could prove they bought things at brick and mortar shops. They are the core of what makes the tabletop industry. Unlike eidolon's situation, here in OH, people see it as a normal activity. So they come in a and watch, and join in, and buy games that they might not have even considred buying beofre they saw them or tried them there at the FLGS.. I know our SRun Missions group has helped my old store sell more Srun books... so win-win there. And that's not something I get through looking at a product online.. and with limited cons to go to, it makes the FLGS a critical link to the industry
SL James
QUOTE (Caine Hazen)
Plus without my shop where would I get my monthly Missions fix at???

Online?

QUOTE (nezumi @ Dec 18 2006, 06:50 PM)
I agree, bookstores COULD be good for that.  But none of the bookstores I've been to are, and I've found better areas on my own.  The best STORE I've found for that sort of a spot has been a coffee shop, which doesn't sell gaming books at all.

That would be funny as hell if Politics & Prose sold SR books.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Caine Hazen)
Some people see this as a negative thing and stay in their basement ordering books and socializing behind the anonymity of an IRC or chat client game and that is fine. But I see it as a social medium far beyond that.

Ouch.

There are, believe it or not, those of us that game while having full time jobs, and a full time family.

I don't have *time* to go to a FLGS that's 30 minutes away, and spend an hour or two shopping around. I have a family (including a 5 month old baby) to take care of.

And my gaming happens at my house, with a group of friends I've had for 3+ years (some much longer).

The implication that it's "Order online and be a social recluse" or "Go to your gaming store and be a vibrant living being" is not the case among a lot of folks. Honestly, I don't have free cycles to go out and meet new players, get to know them, and find out what they're like, much as I'd like to. I'm doing good to manage a game one night a week with my friends. Occasionally we'll get the friend of a friend introduction, and they'll join. So for me, the FLGS is something I hit once every 3-4 months, when I'm in the area. Much as I enjoy talking about gaming, it's a fairly small part of my overall social life.

10 years ago, had I a local gaming store that didn't suck nearby, I would have been a regular fixture. But times change, and needs change. The FLGS needs to offer more than just "We're the only place you can get your books" to survive now.
Kesslan
Yeah I'm in a similar boat. There is only ONE RPG store really left in my entire city. Four other stores are 'supposedly' carrying various RPG books for assorted companies. These stores are still (dispite my constant sending DP9 correctiosn about this) even listed on DP9's webpage, as well as a few other RPG company pages as 'offical sources' for their products.

Most of them long long ago stoped carrying RPG book at all, assuming they ever did to begin with.

Those that remain, only ONE actually carries any decent selection of RPGs. Shadowrun, isnt really among those commonly carried. The other three stores are comic book stores. Two are part of the same chain, though only one of the locations actualy carries anything other than D&D and even then the selection is limited.

The other keeps claiming that companies like Fanpro and DP9 are either dead/dying. And have been saying so for years dispite proof to the contrary. Again they carry mostly D&D and related products, and just about never have the books I want when it comes to Shadowrun.

And while they will order them for me, for a tiny bit extra I can just order the books online and have them shipped to my house. Thus saving me money in parking/gas/bus fare not to mention the time involved in having to go down to said stores myself (None of which are close to me, and I work 11pm-7am, so I have to get up pretty early or stay up pertty late most days to get there before they close etc)

So personally I'm all for things like Fanpro opening it's own online store. Because the only hoby stores that are even remotely common around the city I live in is GamesWorkshop. They've got quite a few locations and they all seem to do very well indeed. But they dont carry anything other than their own products.
Moon-Hawk
FLGS don't suck because of FanPro Direct. FanPro Direct was created because FLGS already suck. I know that sounds harsh, but 10 years ago I knew of lots of great gaming stores. Now they're all gone. I've got to get gaming books somewhere.
SL James
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
FLGS don't suck because of FanPro Direct. FanPro Direct was created because FLGS already suck. I know that sounds harsh, but 10 years ago I knew of lots of great gaming stores. Now they're all gone. I've got to get gaming books somewhere.

QFT
fistandantilus4.0
Feeling mighty lucky about the stores in my area. I went shopping last week, at one store, picked up copy of the Germany SB and Shadowbeat, and NAN1 at another. I've got another jsut down the street that gets all the new books that come out (although a month or three behind on average). And another in an half hour drive that usually has old and new.

The stores that I see succeed though rarely seem to advertise shadowrun, they just know what I'm looking for because I go in fairly frequently. Really other companies have been doing this for yeras, so i don't realyl see a product taht often isn't carried in full in the sotres having a big effetc on them.

I'm also wondering why Mr. Platinum hasn't come back on to discuss his isssue some more.
Kesslan
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Dec 20 2006, 09:57 AM)
FLGS don't suck because of FanPro Direct.  FanPro Direct was created because FLGS already suck.  I know that sounds harsh, but 10 years ago I knew of lots of great gaming stores.  Now they're all gone.  I've got to get gaming books somewhere.

QFT

I've seen the exact same thing in my area Moon. There used to be several good RPG shops around my city, and the comic book shops I mentioned earlier actually -used- to have a very good RPG book section, they killed that though back in 2000, and by 02 there was only one 'true' RPG/Hoby store left in the entire city. And as I've said, they dont carry much in the way of Shadowrun books, and thats when they carry them at all.


I still do pop in there now and then, but I also wish they actually had a webpage, they dont however for some reason, bother putting one up. You'd never know the place existed unless you tripped over it downtown, some one told you about it, or you looked it up in the phonebook. Far as i know their not even listed in the yellowpages.
Vaevictis
Consumers know that when they go to the local brick and mortar, they're going to be paying more than if they ordered direct, or even from a massive company like Amazon or B&N. It's just how it works -- big guys have volume, volume means discounts.

If an FLGS doesn't add enough value on its own -- by letting you browse, by giving you a place to hang out, by having just about everything you need under one roof, by keeping out of print items, etc, etc, etc -- then it deserves to go under. There's no reason I should pay extra at an FLGS just so the FLGS can exist. Ain't my responsibility.

And it ain't the publisher's either. It's the middle-men's responsibility to find a reason for existing; it just isn't the publisher's job to provide him with one.
Butterblume
Amen.
nezumi
I know this is a silly question, but buying from Fan Pro direct gives more money to Fan Pro, right? I mean, where would Fan Pro prefer I buy my books, Amazon, DrivethruRPG or Fan Pro direct?
Kesslan
Yeah, when it's the RPG company directly selling the books, pretty much all the actual proffit goes to them as well. Part of the reason for this of course is with MMOs becomming ever more popular and spread out genre wise, alot of tabletop games -have- suffered because of it too.

Less stores buying their books means less proffits overall. I mean generally alot of the RPG stores I buy books from dont charge more than it costs me to order direct, which means their taking a cut of the cover price, which ultimately means unless there's a high volume of sales, companies like Fanpro dont haul in much at all.

I'd much rather keep the RPG companies in buisness than the RPG stores. Afterall, you really cant have the stores, without the RPGs and such to sell.
bofh
Yea but if there are less stores with the products, aren't there then less impulse buyers? Less chance of a spur of the moment purchase of a module or sourcebook? Sounds like a lovely death spiral there and not necessarily of the store. Many of the additional games and modules I purchased, including Shadow 1st Ed were purchased because I saw them in the store when I was looking for something else (probably Car Wars at the time smile.gif ).

Carl
Kesslan
The only positive side I've ever seen to RPG stores is it gets those playing RPGs to take notice of RPGs they might otherwise never even know about.

Keep in mind RPGs such as Shadowrun, Heavy Gear, Paranoia, D&D are all different companies. Most of your 'impulse buys' will either be product books in the line your looking for (In which case your just as likely to make it online as not since you'll suddenly see that new source book you didnt know about) or for a totaly different RPG made by a totaly different company.

So technicaly speaking there is little to no benifit for an RPG company to care if you buy it from a store or from them directly. And if you do so from them directly they -allways- have a representation of what they have available even if it's currently out of stock/out of print etc. Some times even if it's been discontinued.

The only thing online shopping is missing is that sort of, personal touch that -is- nice. But that doenst help me when the one store in my city doesnt even carry the RPGs I like and claims that all those RPGs are 'dead' or 'dying' when they are quite clearly not.
eidolon
QUOTE (bofh)
Yea but if there are less stores with the products, aren't there then less impulse buyers? Less chance of a spur of the moment purchase of a module or sourcebook? Sounds like a lovely death spiral there and not necessarily of the store. Many of the additional games and modules I purchased, including Shadow 1st Ed were purchased because I saw them in the store when I was looking for something else (probably Car Wars at the time smile.gif ).

Carl

Personally, I'd wager that the "impulse buy" is not at all where any RPG company makes money. The money is made from completists, people that really enjoy the game and genuinely want every book for it, people that follow the product line, etc.

One or two books getting picked up on impulse and then read once before ending up in a closet isn't a revenue stream to speak of.
jervinator
Most of my impulse buys for RPGs are things I wanted in the first place and was waiting for a more financially secure time OR were ordered online after viewing them on a web site.
Mr.Platinum
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Feeling mighty lucky about the stores in my area. I went shopping last week, at one store, picked up copy of the Germany SB and Shadowbeat, and NAN1 at another. I've got another jsut down the street that gets all the new books that come out (although a month or three behind on average). And another in an half hour drive that usually has old and new.

The stores that I see succeed though rarely seem to advertise shadowrun, they just know what I'm looking for because I go in fairly frequently. Really other companies have been doing this for yeras, so i don't realyl see a product taht often isn't carried in full in the sotres having a big effetc on them.

I'm also wondering why Mr. Platinum hasn't come back on to discuss his isssue some more.

Oh I'm just watching right now, been very busy with the month of December and pumping out as much product to the people as i can.
Demerzel
RPGs are a social game, and as such they require a community in which to foster. For some that community is a small group of players with whom you’ve played for years, for others it is the online community. However, how do you get plugged into a community when you’ve arrived in town for that new job, or just decided that it’s time to put away your EverQuest™ addiction and start live pen and paper games anew after a decade away from them?

The local game store needs to be a center of the community, where people can meet and interact. Even their activity within the community is as simple as providing a bulletin board where you can post a note or two (yes, I mean an old school cork board), or as complex as providing gaming tables and events.

Here at the DSF we are a group of outliers in the larger gaming community. Those who are willing to frequent this board and sift through the data to find what we are looking for, and to provide our support and ideas to those who come seeking help. The core group of posters and the ones who’s names you recognize, are more net savvy and more wiling to game online, and order online, and the talk you see here reflects that. We can all say that the FLGS is dead because we don’t use it.

Well that we does not include me, I for one love my local game stores. I love my local economy. However I do not for one moment think that publishers like FanPro opening their own online shop in the current market make the slightest bit of difference. I don’t see a danger to the local shops that is any greater than the one that already exists in the form of BN.com, Amazon, eBay, etc.

Now a poorly run business operated by bad management will always give a bad impression. However a good game store operated by someone who cares can be great. And many FLGS will open and close because they could not be managed in a way that would keep them open. But if there were not a local center to the local gaming community that a game store can act as a focus for then many gamers would not be gamers. They would not have found what they were looking for in games and moved on to something else.

I am at once hopeful and confidant that the local game shop will continue to exist in one form or another and that it will adapt to the modern gamer and modern game culture. I just hope that someone else is willing to take up the challenge of doing it, because I’d rather device my plot lines and paint my miniatures.
eidolon
For a brief time I was a member of a business community forum for gaming store owners (actually, I think I still am a member, but I haven't checked in lately; I was/am considering opening one at some point).

The biggest complaint when I was lurking more frequently (about a year ago, maybe) wasn't "the internet is taking away my business", it was "people's (mostly kids') tastes are changing, and to make money I have to stock more comics and anime stuff instead of the RPGs and board games that originally got me into the business".

FWIW
nezumi
Demerzel, if I want to find local players, I visit the local university gaming club or I log online and put an ad out for players (at a forum appropriate for the sort of game I want to run, or a general forum or maybe even craigslist, if I've been drinking vodka all night and it seems like a good idea at the time.
Demerzel
And you would miss a significant number of potential gamers by doing that.
Adarael
Sure would.
But the question I always ask myself is "Would I want those gamers anyway?"

I'm a big time elitist when it comes to the quality of my games. And most people I meet at local gaming stores annoy the crap out of me.
Grinder
You don't have to game with them when you're a shop owner, you just have to sell stuff. wink.gif
Vaevictis
Maybe if you just act like a big enough nerd, you'll naturally attract friends who play RPGs.

(It's always worked for me. Pretty much all of the people I make friends with, I find out later that they play RPGs.)
Mr.Platinum
So I tried getting some ShadowRun from my distributors and well it's out of Print even though it's sitting in a warehouse ready for FanPro Direct, can't get from a ditributor but as i can see and tested the Fanpro Direct "" I MAY ADD WHO HAS IT" so what are FanPro doing? Asking me to Drop WizKid/Fanpro Line from my shop?

This is BS! I can't get any ShadowRun from a distributor but can get it for retail from the web page, wow Thanks for Supporting your FLGS.
Thane36425
The only place that carries game material around here is one of the big chain bookstores, and even then they only carry D&D and a little bit of Star Wars. If I want Shadorun material or stuff from other games, I either have to go about 2 hours out of my way to get to a store that sometimes has it, or shop online. It is much easier and more cost effective to order online that to hassle with that round trip.
Rob Boyle
So I tried getting some ShadowRun from my distributors and well it's out of Print even though it's sitting in a warehouse ready for FanPro Direct, can't get from a ditributor but as i can see and tested the Fanpro Direct "" I MAY ADD WHO HAS IT" so what are FanPro doing? Asking me to Drop WizKid/Fanpro Line from my shop?

FanPro Direct stock is held in a different warehouse, in a different part of the country, from the main FanPro stock. The folks managing Fanpro Direct made sure to order enough copies of SR4 -- well before FanPro ran out of stock -- to have some on hand for the FanPro Direct launch and to last through the holiday season. So, yes, FanPro Direct probably has all of about 10 copies in stock, and everyone else is currently out. (And no, it's not really worth sending those 10 copies back and putting them into distribution.) You may take that as a sign of our Evil Plan to ruin all FLGSs if you like, but I'll chalk it up to good planning on FanPro Direct's part.
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