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Kesslan
Well, I dont think it's so much that bugs are evil. They.. are quite simply alien. Most mammals tend to think alike, work togeather towards a common goal etc. And also generally have very strong survival instincts (There are exceptions for example... stereotypical Lemmings come to mind)

Alot of bugs on the other hand are... different. Ants for example. Very communal in a way but they fight by swarming recklessly and they are generally qutie territorial. Bees tend to ignore things that dont bother them, wasps are VERY agressive (so are killer bees) and will attack without provocation.

Mosquitos are parasites plain and simple, flys are simply scavengers, beetles.. well that depends on what kind of beetle.

So in a way it sort of depends on the type of bug spirits. I could certainly see a queen bug willingly working alongside humans for the benifit of both if it was the right 'kind' of insect. Ants for example have been often known to form simbiotic relationships with other insects and such.

It could also quite simply be Ares is retaining control soley by force. Keep the queen captive and under super heavy guard. Keep any bug spirits far away from the queen as possible, if they start doing anything 'out of place' hurt the queen, if they keep it up, geek her, most of them will die as a result. Regardless they'll aparently loose that social cohesiveness among those that dont.

I also wouldnt be too supprised if a number of the bug spirits working with/for Ares are infact free sprits. There's some mention that qutie a few went free after operation extermination. Ares doenst even have to offer up human hosts either, they've certainly used a great number of paracritters and normal animals for such things. If they DO have a fully co-operative queen... well.

Thats bad news for runners.
emo samurai
QUOTE (mfb @ Dec 23 2006, 02:39 AM)
haha, check this. i remember a while back, someone suggested that the bug totems had somehow been deposed by some sort of powerful impersonator, which neatly explains why bug spirits are (for lack of a better term) evil despite being just as 'natural' as any other animal totem. maybe Damien's got a deal with a spirit of the original bug totems.

there are holes, and it's a bit too GvE for me, but it's kinda neat.

Or maybe it's just that mankind hasn't anthropomorphized insects the way they have dogs, eagles, and even spiders. I mean, seriously, everybody knows of Arachne and Anansi, but there isn't a brother Termite figure in really any mythology. That's why there's a Spider totem, but no termite totem. So i think it's largely a problem with human belief; for us, a dog is loyalty, an eagle is freedom and haughtiness, but a locust is a locust is a locust, at best. Locusts aren't made into gods of anything; they're just annoying little shits that eat crops. And the same goes for every arthropod but Spider.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Dawnshadow @ Dec 23 2006, 01:28 AM)
Wendigo are not in the SR3 Corebook, which is the only one I possess and the only one I'm willing to. Whole other issue there, which I won't bother going into.

Not sure what the issue is and not particularly interested, but I just wanted to note that Critters is available as a free PDF in case your issue involves the spending of money on books other than the core.

Or I might just be misunderstanding, things have gotten pretty hazy this past hour or so.

~Zzzzzzz

SL James has it correct.

I actually have a fair number of shadowrun books. They all seem to make sense, and are for SR3.
Kesslan
I still dont see why people have this big bug in their pants about SR4. But what ever. Allways some purists out there untill they get taken out by drop bears.

And to Emo, ehhh.. check out a few of the more recent childrens animated movies. There are anthromorphized ants in An Ants Life and a few others as well..

They certainly try to make ants look more human in that one. Mind you it isnt really common in human history, of that you are correct.
Fortune
As for Damian Knight, I keep coming back to this little tidbit from Tom Dowd (doc file from Ancient History's website).
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Fortune)
As for Damian Knight, I keep coming back to this little tidbit from Tom Dowd (doc file from Ancient History's website).

Hah, I was going to link that myself when someone started speculating about Damien Knight having a spirit pact.
Kesslan
Yeah that does make me wonder allright. Are those short stories considered 'cannon'?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fortune)
The thing is that the Bugs hate the Horrors.

Source?

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 24 2006, 03:26 AM)
Source?

House of the Sun, for one. I'm sure there are a couple of others, especially among the Earthdawn releases.

QUOTE (Kesslan)
Are those short stories considered 'cannon'?


Yes, the short stories are indeed canon.
SL James
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 23 2006, 04:29 AM)
I still dont see why people have this big bug in their pants about SR4. But what ever.

That forum is next door, first of all.
emo samurai
Knight's working with the horrors?
Fortune
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Knight's working with the horrors?

Or against them.
emo samurai
What's with the "Damien Knight gets superpowered energy blasts" part?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (emo samurai)
What's with the "Damien Knight gets superpowered energy blasts" part?

That was not Damien Knight. That was someone Knight hired to sit in his chair when he was about to get assassinated by an insect spirit. Recall that this is written in 1992 and Knight hasn't made peace with any of the hives (it's 2053).

-Frank
Kremlin KOA
Dunkelzahn was the settings parrallel of JESUS forgod's sake (pun intended)

He gave his life to save us poor mortal humans

the only difference is that the gods of fanpro buried the hints of a ressurection and made him stay dead... and then corrupted his church (okay so the last part might not be all that different)
mfb
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
That was not Damien Knight. That was someone Knight hired to sit in his chair when he was about to get assassinated by an insect spirit. Recall that this is written in 1992 and Knight hasn't made peace with any of the hives (it's 2053).

yeah. basically, Knight has a mage or three that are kept continually training in a hyperbolic time chamberspace station, making them extremely powerful assets that he can call on when he's got something big planned. the training method is based, as best i can tell, on the same philosophy that advised dropping one-ton weights one a person in order to strengthen their body.
Mortax
It would make it a lot harder. What grade do you have to be to even cast on a space station?
Kagetenshi
It would make it a lot harder. It's also pretty hard for people to lift office buildings. You'll note that office-building-lifting is not a method used by body-builders.

~J
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Mortax)
It would make it a lot harder. What grade do you have to be to even cast on a space station?

Zero. The Eden Space Station is a Mana Ebb, not a Mana Void. You just need to have a Magic of 6, which means that you don't need to be an Initiate.

-Frank
emo samurai
So that means if you're there, if you astrally project, you won't die as long as you stay within a very small sphere.
Demonseed Elite
Eden isn't a station of its own, it's a section of the Ares Daedalus space station at LaGrange Point 4. But yeah, it is a special exception when it comes to being easier on magicians. That was the whole point of it being built.
emo samurai
Why wouldn't Lofwyr understand insect spirits? And why was S-K so comparatively ineffective in fighting the invae?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Why wouldn't Lofwyr understand insect spirits?

Because Lofwyr doesn't understand anyone. The Hive is the antithesis of Lofwyr's existence. He is the perfect example of the Selfish Actor, a philosophical ideal of Egoism. The Invae are Eusocial, they are individually willing, even eager, to sacrifice themselves for the good of the group. The Insects represent the philosophical ideal of Altruism to an extent similar to Lofwyr's.

These opposing philosophies don't have common ground save in human action. Man is a social creature but a man is an island of individuality and all that. Lofwyr does not get behavior that is not personally self interested and the Insects do not understand actions motivated by ought else but the good of the whole.

You can't buy the loyalty of an individual insect and Lofwyr does not comprehend the existence of the hive as a bargaining unit. He can't even understand friendship (see Survival of the Fittest), so something as out there as sublimating the self to embrace the self of group is just a string of words to him.

QUOTE
And why was S-K so comparatively ineffective in fighting the invae?


Because the Invae don't matter and Lofwyr doesn't give a shit. The last time they showed up they kicked some ass for a while and were driven underground and lived in caves meeping in the darkness writhing under the wrath of the Scourge just like everyone else. Lofwyr sees the Insects as a distraction and nothing more.

People get concerned about them, but they really are in no danger of putting him in a coccoon so it doesn't matter. The way he sees it, Invae attack will cost everyone occassional contacts and subordinates with their attacks and schemes. Also, eventually they will be defeated because they are in total nowhere near as powerful as the massed armies of humanity.

So from Lofwyr's perspective, the Invae are a Reverse Commons Problem. That is, eventually enough resources will be brought to bear against the Insects to defeat them. And until that happens, Invae attack will damage everyone's resources somewhat. So Lofwyr did the math on how much he expected to lose by putting in any real effort to defeating the bug menace, and how much he expected to lose by letting the Insects run rampage across the planet for long enough to convince some excitable human groups to chip in instead - and decided that he would lose more by committing resources against the Invae than he would by not committing resources against them.

---

That's how Lofwyr thinks. And in isolation, that thinking generates the best possible results for one's self every time.

But Ares has the better plan. They came out of the Universal Brotherhood confrontation stronger. They were able to play both sides - garnering allies and friends by committing resources against the Bugs, and getting allies of enough Bug groups who were awed and persuaded enough to join up. By committing in and being willing to work with and for others, Ares pulled ahead - even though they spent more on the Bug City problem than S-K lost by allowing the process to fester.

-Frank
SL James
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
You can't buy the loyalty of an individual insect and Lofwyr does not comprehend the existence of the hive as a bargaining unit. He can't even understand friendship (see Survival of the Fittest), so something as out there as sublimating the self to embrace the self of group is just a string of words to him.

What a miserable existence.
emo samurai
What, Lofwyr's, or the invaes'?
Mortax
QUOTE (emo samurai)
What, Lofwyr's, or the invaes'?

yes
emo samurai
You've watched Buffy, haven't you?
Mortax
Once or twice, though that has been a standard wise donkey response of mine for a long time.
SL James
Lofwyr's. The invae seem to exist just fine.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (emo samurai)
You've watched Buffy, haven't you?

*STAB STAB STAB STAB STAB*

~J
Sahandrian
QUOTE (Mortax)
Once or twice, though that has been a standard wise donkey response of mine for a long time.

Me too. But when I do it, it's usually intended to be a slight nod to Kosh Naranek.

...who does it on Buffy? I've managed to avoid seeing anything from the "Buffyverse" (or similar shows such as "Charmed" or "Angel"), aside from the original movie...
FrankTrollman
The last season of Angel is one of the best things that was ever on television, making it worth watching the early seasons just to understand what is going on in season five.

Of course, I don't suggest that you have to watch the entire fourth season - that's really crappy television. It's ironic. Angel went around being a decently mid-grade adventure show for three seasons, then they made a season that was really really bad, and then they got it together and made high art for the last one. I don't knwo why that happened.

-Frank
emo samurai
Because I started watching it!

But the incident in question is when Angel is asking Buffy about their cheesy romance future together, and when he presents her with a few options, she says "Yes" uncertainly.

And SL, I'm proud of you. You have definitely grown.
SL James
Well, I have been eating more.
DrScheme
QUOTE (Kesslan)
And I suppose, it also comes down to the big question of.. is there ever a dragon you can really, truely trust?

Schwartzkopf.
Kagetenshi
Charcoalgrin.

~J
Kesslan
QUOTE (DrScheme)
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 21 2006, 02:30 AM)
And I suppose, it also comes down to the big question of.. is there ever a dragon you can really, truely trust?

Schwartzkopf.

I'm not familar with that one. Whats the supposed deal with him/her?
DrScheme
QUOTE (Kesslan)
QUOTE (DrScheme @ Dec 27 2006, 01:48 AM)

Schwartzkopf.

I'm not familar with that one. Whats the supposed deal with him/her?

According to AH:

QUOTE

Schwarzkopf means "Black Head" in German. Schwarzkopf is a lecturer at Charles University in Prague, and Protector of the Marienbad Council. In 2061 he backed the Marienburg Council's move to the Czech Republic. The dragon is also a proponent of the Unified Magic Theory. He is very interested in magic books, folios, relics and artifacts, making use of the decker Veda and a group of former students known as "The Travellers" to collect them.

In 2063, a drake (either one created by Schwarzkopf or under his protection) was admitted to Charles University, only to be assassinated. This appears to be part of a plot to re-engage Schwarzkopf with draconic affairs. In resuming his social contacts, he has made social overtures to both LUng and Ghostwalker. Schwarzkopf and Masaru have a slight rivalry. Lairs beneath the Clementium in Prague. The lair is protected by golems and contains a menagerie of paranormal animals for purposes of study.

The extant[sic] of Schwarzkopf's magical abilities remain unknown, but he is likely the greatest scholar concerning the Unified Magic Theory living, and almost certainly possess the secret to constructing the powerful golems that protect his lair.



He's a university professor. He can't be all bad. ...Right?
SL James
QUOTE (DrScheme)
He's a university professor.  He can't be all bad.  ...Right?

Nah...

It's not like he wrote a book advocating the creation of a useless missile defense system.
Kesslan
Ohhh now I remember him. Right.

And yeah, if he's teaching metas he's likely 'one of the better ones' like Dion. They certainly seem to be the exception rather than the rule however.
DrScheme
QUOTE (SL James)

It's not like he wrote a book advocating the creation of a useless missile defense system.

Mein Fuhrer! I can walk!

<hr>

QUOTE

And yeah, if he's teaching metas he's likely 'one of the better ones' like Dion. They certainly seem to be the exception rather than the rule however.


He's teaching, which implies to me that he is walking around in human form most of the time (you try fitting a great dragon into a lecture hall).

If he is working in a university, he is likely also publishing papers and such on magical theory, which seems to be a very out-of-character thing to do for a dragon (aren't they supposed to hoard information, too?)

Finally, if he's got old students running around after magical artifacts for him, that seems to imply that he has a close one-on-one relationship with metas (or that he's got some other hold over them)...
Kesslan
QUOTE (DrScheme)
Finally, if he's got old students running around after magical artifacts for him, that seems to imply that he has a close one-on-one relationship with metas (or that he's got some other hold over them)...

Well of course he's got some hold over them. I can easily see the following somewhat evil scenarios.

A) Agree to run around collecting stuff for me after you graduate or I will instead fail you! If you run from me I will instead eat you alive!

B) Blackmail

C) The assumed prestige/wonder in working with a 'friendly' dragon.

D) He's using modern brainwashing techniques uppon them.

E) All of the above
SL James
QUOTE (DrScheme)
QUOTE (SL James @ Dec 27 2006, 02:24 AM)

It's not like he wrote a book advocating the creation of a useless missile defense system.

Mein Fuhrer! I can walk!

Actually, I was describing one of my professors.

QUOTE
He's teaching, which implies to me that he is walking around in human form most of the time (you try fitting a great dragon into a lecture hall).


Page 157 of Dragons of the Sixth World would disagree with you.
mfb
just because a dragon is teaching people doesn't make him a good guy. you have to look at what he's teaching, and most importantly, why he's teaching.
Kesslan
QUOTE (mfb)
just because a dragon is teaching people doesn't make him a good guy. you have to look at what he's teaching, and most importantly, why he's teaching.

Well the what is known, as in magical theory.

The why is a whoooole other ballgame.
mfb
there's a lot of magic out there, and a lot of theory behind it. putting the right people on the path to the right paradigm can have a big impact. for instance, you could teach people that blood magic isn't so bad, or that elves corrupt magic, or whatever. you wouldn't put it in so many words, of course, but your curriculum would be subtlely slanted in certain directions.
Kesslan
True but some one would notice that rather quickly.

Besides, much of magic is incomprehensible.

Mathematical formula = Fireball
Calling uppon the great spirits for magic = Fireball
Doing some wierd ass dance and chanting = Fireball
Thinking Fireball = Fireball
Hitting the detonator on an R12 FAE = Very big Fireball
mfb
QUOTE (Kesslan)
True but some one would notice that rather quickly.

if a GD didn't want it to be noticed quickly, i don't think it would be. these are beings that manipulate the world behind the scenes, making moves no one ever finds out about. manipulating a classroom should be easy.
Kesslan
Yes, but a classroom isnt a cave or boardroom. Students chat with other folk about stuff their teacher does/says alot I found.

God knows when I was in colledge I heard plenty of stuff about other folks teachers and their teaching methods etc. In the classroom itself I'm sure it's pretty much all fluffy and by the book.

Behind the scenes/afterclass etc. Well thats another story. Reminds me of these two movies, I dont remember the name of em, but these select group of students mess around with prototype muscle enhancement/replacement etc.
mfb
what i'm saying is that he doesn't have to say "elves are evil!" in class, or even reference the idea, to plant it in his students' heads. he can simply present them with subtlely slanted ideas, give them hints and clues in such a way as to pique their curiosity, etcetera. many of the students will end up coming to the conclusions he wants them to come to "on their own". if there's an elven student in the class, he could call attention to that elf frequently--all the while grading the elf more strictly than anyone else. the end result would be that everyone would hear about the elf a lot, but would see that the elf's grades don't live up to the hype. a really good manipulator can hide his manipulations well, such that those being manipulated don't know they're being manipulated. you could do a survey of a decade's worth of classes and find that the bell curve for anti-elven sentiment is skewed... but nobody believes statistics today; i can't imagine that will be less true in 2060+.

btw, i'm using "elves are evil" as a completely hypothetical example. i have no idea what Pimple thinks of elves.
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