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fool
so shooting or swinging at a fly on the wall drone is obviously harder than hitting a gd. I'm not one for poprtine over rules from that other game, but size categories might not be a bad idea, or at least some guidlines, for how hard it is to hit a smaller object.
Shrike30
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember there being targeting modifiers based on the size of an object. Or am I thinking Signature?
lorechaser
I don't see anything in the BBB.

That being said, I think a range from -3 to +3, based on size, isn't too outlandish. I'd allow things like Vision Mag to reduce those for smaller objects.
Xenith
There are indeed signature modifiers. Electric vechiles of standard size, metahumans and critters, drones, and mirco drones are hard to hit. Large and oversized vehicles(trains, zeppelins, airliners) are easier to hit. If you check out how sensor and signature are used in targeting, you'd notice this makes a big difference.
lorechaser
But signature only matters for the purposes of programs. It doesn't apply to a person shooting a gun.

Does it?
Xenith
Again, read how sensor and signature affect gunnery.

But otherwise, no.

Doesn't stop you from applying something like that, though.
Apathy
So, what were you thinking of? something like this?
+3 dice - huge target (blimp, broad side of a barn, juggernaut, etc.)
+2 dice - vehicle size (tank, semi, car, behemoth)
+1 dice - giant meta size (troll, bandersnatch, horse, piasma/bear)
-1 dice - tiny meta size (gnome meta-varient, small child, satyr, large dog, doberman drone)
-2 dice - football sized target (bat/bird, housecat, corpselight, small hoverdrone)
-3 dice - insect sized target (mini-grenade, ghede fly)
Kesslan
QUOTE (Apathy)
So, what were you thinking of? something like this?
+3 dice - huge target (blimp, broad side of a barn, juggernaut, etc.)
+2 dice - vehicle size (tank, semi, car, behemoth)
+1 dice - giant meta size (troll, bandersnatch, horse, piasma/bear)
-1 dice - tiny meta size (gnome meta-varient, small child, satyr, large dog, doberman drone)
-2 dice - football sized target (bat/bird, housecat, corpselight, small hoverdrone)
-3 dice - insect sized target (mini-grenade, ghede fly)

Yeah see that sort of thing might make some sense. It would also in my oppinion apply with perception modifiers. Afterall it's alot easier to notice that a tank is driving towards you than it is to notice that a fly has just come into the room and landed on the ceiling.

I wouldnt be too supprised if one of the later books, most likely arsenal added in a bigger modifier table.
Thane36425
QUOTE (lorechaser)
But signature only matters for the purposes of programs. It doesn't apply to a person shooting a gun.

Does it?

Target size does make a difference. An easy way to see this is to look at a car at about 50 feet. It would be pretty easy to just hit the car at that range. Targeting a window would be a little tougher. Hitting a door handle would be even harder. Trying to hit the key hole would be a real challenge.

Going the other way, it would be easier to hit an SUV than a compact car, a truck than the SUV and house than a truck.
Eryk the Red
Personally, if setting up modifiers for target size, I would want to make the normal range of metahuman sizes within the "no modifier" range. No bonus to hitting trolls, no penalties for dwarves. That's less about realism to me and more about avoiding adding any more intrinsic bonuses and penalties for metatypes.
DireRadiant
So do we scale damage up and down as well?

I really wouldn't bother adding extra steps to deal with all this "It's bigger so it's easier to see and hit, but then do we scale down the damage because that .45 round is relatively smaller." stuff.
Draug
Uhm... Trolls have higher Body scores?
Eryk the Red
Yeah. As it is, the tendency of larger things to have a higher Body rating, which gives them more health levels and more dice to resist damage, serves as the means by which smaller attacks do less relative damage to larger targets. It works well enough for me. To-hit mods for size don't really hurt that or affect it in any meaningful way.
fool
QUOTE
So, what were you thinking of? something like this?
+3 dice - huge target (blimp, broad side of a barn, juggernaut, etc.)
+2 dice - vehicle size (tank, semi, car, behemoth)
+1 dice - giant meta size (troll, bandersnatch, horse, piasma/bear)
-1 dice - tiny meta size (gnome meta-varient, small child, satyr, large dog, doberman drone)
-2 dice - football sized target (bat/bird, housecat, corpselight, small hoverdrone)
-3 dice - insect sized target (mini-grenade, ghede fly

yeah That's pretty much what I was thinking of.
I would definitely include all meta types (though not necessarily variants ) to be in the +0 category.
Butterblume
I always used the fact that trolls aren't easier to hit than dwarfs as a kind of counter-argument to why troll sized weapons don't deal more damage than smaller ones...
ShadowDragon
Nice Apathy, I'm going to use that. Though I think dwarves should get the -1 modifier too.
ShadowDragon
QUOTE (Butterblume)
I always used the fact that trolls aren't easier to hit than dwarfs as a kind of counter-argument to why troll sized weapons don't deal more damage than smaller ones...

You could always say that troll weapons aren't significantly bigger than dwarf weapons - just the handles are. Trolls are stronger than dwarves so they typically do more damage anyway.
Begisle
Isn't the book just a guideline?

Make up a rule for the situation and keep to that rule throughout the game.
Serbitar
-3 for a mini grenade is not enough
Please use the cover modifiers as orientation.

Something like this:

troll: +1
dwarf : -1
. . .
football (european one): -4
mini drone: -5
micro drone: -6
fly: -8

Though, if you do that, you should give troll-designed weapons a +1DV modifer. (or/and use these rules: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...=0&#entry453467 )
djinni
QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
Yeah. As it is, the tendency of larger things to have a higher Body rating, which gives them more health levels and more dice to resist damage.

Dwarves are smaller and have a higher body attribute...
but in your logic they should have a lower attribute?
Draug
Dwarves have a higher muslce and bone density. This is explained somewhere in canon.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Jarl)
Dwarves have a higher muslce and bone density. This is explained somewhere in canon.

So dwarf guns are denser to make up for the smaller size.
Thane36425
QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
You could always say that troll weapons aren't significantly bigger than dwarf weapons - just the handles are. Trolls are stronger than dwarves so they typically do more damage anyway.


Troll sized guns would just have larger grips and dimensions, not necessarily larger calibers. However, a troll would probably be more likely to be using something like a .500 S&W than an elf or human simply because they are bigger and could handle such a monster more easily.

Melee weapons would end up doing more damage, as pointed out, simply because they are bigger and stronger and that is taken care of in the damage rating already.
ShadowDragon
I meant melee weapons. I thought that was obvious.
Butterblume
I didn't mean melee weapons. Probably obvious, too biggrin.gif.
ShadowDragon
lol well ok then. I DEFINATELY see no reason for a troll Ares Predator to be more damaging than dwarf or regular Ares Predator.

However I do have a houserule that gives higher strength characters bonuses on RC, so indirectly they get a bonus to damage.
Thane36425
QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
lol well ok then. I DEFINATELY see no reason for a troll Ares Predator to be more damaging than dwarf or regular Ares Predator.

However I do have a houserule that gives higher strength characters bonuses on RC, so indirectly they get a bonus to damage.

There was a system for allowing larger characters greater recoil control in Fields of Fire, I think that is the right book. Don't have access to my copy right now though.

My point earlier was that trolls could more easily use "super magnum" pistols like the .454 Casull and .500 S&W. For stats I would just add a point or two to damage for heavy pistol but leave the range the same. Ammo would also cost at least 4 times as much as standard because it is very rare. Specialty bullets for these calibers would cost even more. Other races can use these calibers, of course, but probably with a recoil penalty. Never fired one myself, but I have seen a .500S&W fired and I wasn't having any of that.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Thane36425)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon @ Jan 4 2007, 03:05 AM)
lol well ok then. I DEFINATELY see no reason for a troll Ares Predator to be more damaging than dwarf or regular Ares Predator.

However I do have a houserule that gives higher strength characters bonuses on RC, so indirectly they get a bonus to damage.

There was a system for allowing larger characters greater recoil control in Fields of Fire, I think that is the right book. Don't have access to my copy right now though.

...Cannon Companion also had the strength modifier for recoil rule.
Eryk the Red
QUOTE
QUOTE

Yeah. As it is, the tendency of larger things to have a higher Body rating, which gives them more health levels and more dice to resist damage.


Dwarves are smaller and have a higher body attribute...
but in your logic they should have a lower attribute?


I said there is a tendency for larger things to have a higher rating. That does not preclude the possibility of something smaller than something else having the higher body. I simply meant that, on average, the larger something is, the higher its Body is likely to be.
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