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sunnyside
This isn't a new issue in SR4 per se however I'm hoping there is an SR4 solution.


The issue is sustaining foci. They're cheap enough to start with a few at character creation and to be bounded after a couple sessions with Karma. At that point the mage can simply keep casting spells through them until they get that armor 3 and increased reflexes 3 etc up and going.

Pretty soon they're more potent than adepts or sammies could ever hope to be. And that's before they start buying higher rating foci.

Just wondering what you think/do about that.
lorechaser
You're limited by number of foci you can bind and number of foci you can have active. You're also a candidate (I would say required) for focus addiction. And you set off a lot of warning bells.

If a mage in astral sees someone walking in the door loaded up with Armor 3, Increased Reflexes 3, and a couple other clearly combat related spells, even if you're just there to shop, I'm assuming magical security will go in to high alert.

All that being said, I'm very much in favor of the grounding spells through Foci and attacking active foci rules coming back....
RunnerPaul
Wards - Especially in the paranoid 2070s, they should be commonplace.

Background Count - Useful for reining in all sorts of magic-use balance issues, not just foci.

Patrolling Spirits/Astral Recon - Only really useful in curtailing focus use until the PC in question initiates and picks up the Extended Masking advanced metamagic, but still something to consider.

Thane36425
Focus addiction could be a real problem, eventually leading to loss of magic.

It is also correct that you stand out on the astral if you have a lot of foci. You could take the Great Masking ability to conceal them, though.

I've usually just had one or two foci, usually sustaining to keep an Enhanced reflexes and maybe one other active. Also, I'd generally only have them active when going on a run or the like rather than having them "on" all the time. A problem in an ambush sure, but better security and less chance of addiction.

sunnyside
The magic attribute limit, while good for keeping things from getting completly out of hand, still lets you get away with quite a bit.

And it's true that the mage either has to waste simple actions activating the things or they have to be less stealthy. That is something. Of course I don't think any of them are illegal, which you can't say for a lot of what the other characters are trying to conceal. Though those weapons would be "dull" in the astral.

However I'm interested in this "focus addiction." Did I just miss that in the BBB or is it in one of the supplements? Is it an effective mechanic?
Demerzel
An active focus can be targeted by an astrally projecting magician with a mana based spell.

So if your player won't turn off that Enhanced Reflexes sustaining focus ever, then just destroy it.

Give it an object resistance, couldn't be worse than 4, then any mage who casts a mana bolt with a reasonable force can destroy it from astral.

Key is don't let your characters sit around 24/7 with active foci. Just let them know they will get destroyed, and they will lose the Karma and nuyen investment. Simple as that.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jan 1 2007, 02:19 PM)
However I'm interested in this "focus addiction."  Did I just miss that in the BBB or is it in one of the supplements?  Is it an effective mechanic?

In previous editions, it most definitely was and effective mechanic, because focus addiction was the natural and inevitable consequence of excessive focus use.

The SR4 version presented in Street Magic is framed in the context of a Negative Quality, as a variant of the Addiction Negative Quality in the main book. The BBB does have a section on characters gaining the Addiction Negative Quality in play as opposed to buying it at chargen, and presumably this would also apply to the Focus Addiction variant. However, no guidance is provided for setting the threshold for the Addiction Test, leaving the ball squarely in the GM's court for determining just how addictive focus use is.

While this is in keeping with the developer's stance of letting individual GMs decide how addiction issues should be handled at their table, Focus Addiction is also a game balancing tool, and firm numbers would have been a handy baseline. A lack of hard numbers for the Addiction Test threshold may also prompt magic user players to complain that they're being unfairly singled out by the GM. This may be countered by pointing out that Hacker characters also risk Addiction Tests of an unspecified threshold when using Hot Sim VR, but that's an apples/oranges comparison at best.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Demerzel)
An active focus can be targeted by an astrally projecting magician with a mana based spell.

So if your player won't turn off that Enhanced Reflexes sustaining focus ever, then just destroy it.

Give it an object resistance, couldn't be worse than 4, then any mage who casts a mana bolt with a reasonable force can destroy it from astral.

Has anything been printed in regards to destroying the foci or would we just be making it up.

As Paul points out players can get to feeling like they're being screwed over when you go out of the book for the express purpose of destroying their toys. Especially if they think the threshold should be force x2 or something.

I expect this problem would be compounded for any player who remembers the old rules for attacking foci directly.
knasser

Foci Addiction doesn't bother me. I have one that sustains "Alleviate Addiction" cool.gif
Ranneko
Also, with the sustaining focus you can get at chargen, you can only sustain increased reflexes 2 (Remember, the number of extra passes is hits - 1, capped at 4)
Thanee
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jan 1 2007, 09:23 PM)
Has anything been printed in regards to destroying the foci or would we just be making it up.


You can shut them down (i.e. disrupt the spell), but not damage them directly from the astral, I think.

Bye
Thanee
Glyph
Sustaining foci are a trade-off. By getting foci, you are giving up a wider spell selection, higher skills or Attributes, or the bonuses that other foci can give you.

As far as increased reflexes, you can either start with 2 extra IP max (due to thresholds and starting availability limits), or wait until you can afford to buy and bond a higher-rated sustaining focus. The spell increases initiative as well as initiative passes, but does not increase the Reaction Attribute, so it is not as good as the sammie or adept version. Not to mention, it's a relatively high-Drain spell, and it's a pain to have to drop and re-cast it every time you go through a ward (assuming you don't have Masking yet). And it is vulnerable to dispelling. It should be vulnerable to astral combat, too, but there are no rules for it that I have found yet, beyond what happens when you try to take one through an astral barrier.

Armor is not a plausible spell to walk around with all of the time - it GLOWS, people! Even during combat, it is of dubious benefit, offering protection but inviting more attacks from enemies. But walking down the street with it? See how far you get.


So no, while sustaining foci are useful, they far from allow the mage to "overshadow" combat-specialized adepts and street samurai.
Thanee
QUOTE (Glyph)
...it GLOWS, people!

That's a good point! rotfl.gif

Bye
Thanee
sunnyside
Thanee. At least in the BBB it indicate the things have an astral signature. And hence implies they can be destroyed. However no rules are given, and it's sure to be a touch subject. A player might be OK with a level 3 sustaining focus getting wiped out wit ha threshold of 4 but once they have somethign like a level 6 power focus I think special rules are neccesary.

And if you need special rules for power foci shouldn't you have them for regular. In short you should be able to take them out, but I have no idea how I'd do it.


And yes they'll need to buy something in game to get the full reflex increase. However the level 2 increase is all most everyone else can get during chargen.

And level 3 won't take too long to acheive. And then you can use your old level 3 focus to make yourself invisible all the time or something.

*Edit I guess a bunch of us were typing at the same time. I suppose you have a point in that it glows.

A couple technical questions. On what glyph wrote

Armor spell plus invisibility. What happens.

It mentions what happens with wards in regards to being stuck in an elevator and such. Would things also be disrupted when casually walking through a doorway?

Also I've been assuming when you deactivate the things the spells stay inside. If you have to recast every time you deactive that makes them a lot more of a pain to use. That would balance them a lot actually.
Thane36425
There were rules for attacking and destroying foci in SR3. I don't have that book handy or I'd look it up. If you wanted to use that mechanic, it should be easy enough to translate it to SR4.

RunnerPaul
QUOTE (knasser @ Jan 1 2007, 03:44 PM)
Foci Addiction doesn't bother me. I have one that sustains "Alleviate Addiction" cool.gif

For those of you who might not realize Knasser's being funny:

"Note that this spell does not work against the effects of Focus Addiction"
Alleviate Addiction spell description, p.169, Street Magic
Demerzel
You can target an active focus with a mana based combat spells from the astral. I forgot it is not an object resistance, it resists with it's force.

QUOTE (p191)
When activated, foci have an astral form [ . . . ]


QUOTE (p174)
Spells cast on astral objects like mana barriers or active foci are resisted with force.


Basically if you can do physical damage to a focus it's not any different from taking a hammer to it. So since it's astral when activated nothing stops me from dropping a manabolt into it. Even a manaball, however the ball's radius of effect will only include other active astral forms.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Demerzel)
You can target an active focus with a mana based combat spells from the astral. I forgot it is not an object resistance, it resists with it's force.

That's nice. That means the things are actually really easy to destroy.(assuming they aren't just disrupted)

But does that also mean a power focus is super easy to drop? It would seem to.
Fortune
QUOTE (sunnyside)
Also I've been assuming when you deactivate the things the spells stay inside. If you have to recast every time you deactive that makes them a lot more of a pain to use. That would balance them a lot actually.

Ah, no. The Spell(s) definitely have to be re-cast every single time that the Focus is activated.
Glyph
Keep in mind that enemy spellcasters will not be too likely to use this tactic in combat unless the PC is lit up like a Christmas tree with several foci. Why negate a focus when you can stunball the mage and his buddies?

This would discourage people from keeping sustaining foci active all of the time, though, since it is a potential vulnerability. Otherwise, I would not use it too often or unrealistically, as it can seem like picking on the player. After all, it is messing up items that usually have a significant amount of money and karma/build points invested in them.


It still begs the question of how "wounded" foci are affected. I would probably take a page from SR3 and rule that they regenerate back to full force in a round if not completely destroyed. And you also may or may not choose to allow the affected magician to use counterspelling to protect his/her foci from attack (I would probably allow it).
Faelan
Well if Foci are anything like pattern items in Earthdawn, they are pretty tough little items.

What I find interesting is that so many are having a fit over a Mage having a sustaining focus. Seriously you might as well be arguing about making sure technomancers are in tech free areas, and street sams cyberware should just spontaneously cease functioning. If they pay the nuyen and karma, what is the big deal?
Thane36425
QUOTE (sunnyside)
QUOTE (Demerzel @ Jan 1 2007, 07:06 PM)
You can target an active focus with a mana based combat spells from the astral.  I forgot it is not an object resistance, it resists with it's force.

That's nice. That means the things are actually really easy to destroy.(assuming they aren't just disrupted)

But does that also mean a power focus is super easy to drop? It would seem to.

They would probably also benefit from their owner's spell defense as well, such as shielding, if they have it. I haven't seen anything about that in the rules, but it would make sense.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Faelan)
Well if Foci are anything like pattern items in Earthdawn, they are pretty tough little items.

What I find interesting is that so many are having a fit over a Mage having a sustaining focus. Seriously you might as well be arguing about making sure technomancers are in tech free areas, and street sams cyberware should just spontaneously cease functioning. If they pay the nuyen and karma, what is the big deal?

Well the Earthdawn link has been seriously weakened since FASA went down. It's mostly only present in flavor now, and that's only because they want to keep consistency.

Anyway the reason this thread started was because a mage with a six pack of sustaining foci running would be a beast compared to any other character. And it wouldn't take that many sessions to pull it off. We're talking about flying around invisible with four initiative passes, armor and a few other boosts.


However if the spells get dropped every time they deactivate the things and spirits/mages in the astral can pop the foci like zits if they come across the mage than the foci will probably be relegated to sustaining the odd spell for a mage for short time frames. Which isn't a problem.
Demerzel
QUOTE (sunnyside)
However if the spells get dropped every time they deactivate the things and spirits/mages in the astral can pop the foci like zits if they come across the mage than the foci will probably be relegated to sustaining the odd spell for a mage for short time frames. Which isn't a problem.

I consider this what they are designed for. The only occasion where I would do this to a player is in the case where they are leaving spells active for extended durations to avoid the possibility of drain when they need the spells.

As far as spell defense, I'd say it's just like anything else with spell defense. The mage has to declare it.
tisoz
QUOTE (sunnyside)
The issue is sustaining foci. They're cheap enough to start with a few at character creation and to be bounded after a couple sessions with Karma. At that point the mage can simply keep casting spells through them until they get that armor 3 and increased reflexes 3 etc up and going.

They are foregoing other assets at chargen, making themselves weaker starting characters than normal. Bonding them first thin is also a choice where they are foregoing other options to increase the characters's power.

QUOTE
Pretty soon they're more potent than adepts or sammies could ever hope to be.  And that's before they start buying higher rating foci.

Just wondering what you think/do about that.

As others pointed out, there are limits in the rules as well as focus addiction. Magician characters will always be more potent, as you put it, when they start getting karma. They have their own drawbacks so learn to live with the apparent injustice.
Faelan
I understand that the ED link is mostly for flavor now, but the magic systems though utilizing different dice mechanics are similar conceptually. Many metamagics have spells or talents that do similar things in ED and vis versa. It still is not gone, and foci don't exactly fall off trees, they cost karma and nuyen.

The fact that for a starting character or new character can have 6 sustaining foci quickly, means they will be at low force levels, which means pretty much every time he walks through a ward they will get deactivated. I don't see the problem, and apparently neither did the game designers. What I am getting at is that it appears you would be fine with someone running around with dermal armor, wired reflexes, muscle augmentation, muscle toner, and god knows what kind of high speed gear, yet a Mage who has dumped not just nuyen, but karma on top of it should not be allowed equal access. Sorry just seems a little harsh to me.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Faelan)
What I am getting at is that it appears you would be fine with someone running around with dermal armor, wired reflexes, muscle augmentation, muscle toner, and god knows what kind of high speed gear, yet a Mage who has dumped not just nuyen, but karma on top of it should not be allowed equal access. Sorry just seems a little harsh to me.


Try inherently unequal if youíre talking about running 4 Sustaining Foci with Improved Reflexes, Armor, Increased Agility and Increased Strength. A mage can have the equivalent of Wired 3, Dermal Armor Rating 4, Muscle Toner 4, and Muscle Aug 4. All at chargen, at the cost of 4 rating 4 sustaining foci, BP to bond, BP to learn the spells. A street sam would just have a negative essence and be dead. Now how is that equal access and make you think that being harsh about a player overusing foci is overkill?
Faelan
Lets see what you just described for a starting mage would cost 60BP just for the foci bonding, the nuyen for the foci, and the spells. Lets see another 15BP for the Magician Quality, oh and thanks for the extra skills I need, and the extra stat to blow karma and BP on. Thank you for the ability to have all of this dispelled by a single ward or having an opposing Mage being able to turn it off. Lets not forget the big glowing target sign over your head too, afterall Armor glows, I guess it is pretty obvious who the Mage is. It is also pretty obvious based on other threads who is going to get geeked immediately.

A Dermal Plating 3, Wired Reflexes 2, Muscle Toner 4, Muscle Augmentation 4, Alphaware costs 4.88 Essence, and 43 BP. Can't be stolen realistically, turned off, destroyed, or otherwise yanked from the player, without essentially killing the character.
Oh all this at roughly half of what a Mage character would have to invest to do the same.

Sorry I don't see the problem.
deek
QUOTE (Thanee)
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 1 2007, 11:24 PM)
...it GLOWS, people!

That's a good point! rotfl.gif

Bye
Thanee

In a world where AR is all around, wouldn't a lot of people be glowing? Using RFID tags, AROs and other AR enhancements, I'm thinking this may not be as big an issue in populated areas as you may think.

In one run, I had my group in a nightclub where there was someone that looked like a 40' troll, having half his body clipped by the ceiling. Obviously it was only in AR and once the group filtered it out they saw the regular dude.

I assume this is pretty common.
Faelan
Though your perception might be reduced, I don't see a group of runners mistaking AR for Reality all that often. Your average Hacker type might spend most of his time with AR kicking, but a Street Sam most likely does not want the clutter.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Faelan)
Sorry I don't see the problem.


So let see if I understand you. If you were running a game you would allow Joe Starting Mage to cast all these spells once and let them run in a sustaining focus for the duration of the campaign?

Because thereís noone here saying that a mage may not do this. My point is that if a mage does they have to expect they will lose a great deal of that original cost when an astrally projecting mage with a grudge shows up and nukes them all with one spell. For a mage to have all this they better be discreet when and where they use it, and you say thatís too harsh?
Faelan
1) There is no way they would last the duration of the campaign, circumstances would undoubtedly prevent that from happening.
2) If you are suggesting that with one spell you can blast their foci into orbit, yea that is too harsh. It is a vast investment of karma and nuyen, and depriving the player of these without any real justification, beyond it requiring a little more effort on a GM's part is complete bullshit.
3) Dispel the spells, make them run into wards, etc. I am all for these are temporary conditions, and do not remove the permanent investment the player has made.
4) I almost always GM, so while I might permit Joe Starting Mage to cast these spells, and have the foci he would be so weak in other ways that his life expectancy would be very short.

To sum it up permanent removal of karma and nuyen paid for items that you allow the player to have in the first place, being permanently nuked (in spite of no rules for doing so in the RAW), in my mind at least equals a serious violation of the trust that should exist between the players and the GM, and is definitely counter productive to having fun.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Faelan)
in spite of no rules for doing so in the RAW


There are rules for targeting an active focus and there are rules for an active focus defending from spells. Please see my earlier quotes including page references and consult your core rulebook. If you claim that this is unjustified in the rules than you are also asserting that nothing is susceptible to spell damage, and for that matter firearms damage.

QUOTE (Faelan)
[ . . . ] permanent removal of karma and nuyen paid for items that you allow the player to have in the first place [ . . . ]


So any time I do something that costs a player to lose Nuyen and Karma spent on an item Iím violating some sacred trust? If I tell a player, ďYou as a player may not understand, but your character knows as a mage that leaving these sustaining foci on 24/7 is a grave risk to their continued existence, and I suggest you be more subtle about their use,Ē then proceed to destroy them when they choose to ignore that advice, you would say Iím violating some sacred trust, and Iím operating counter to the goal of having fun?

So that quickened spell you have that failed to pass through a ward and is Karma wasted, thatís my bad as a GM I should have been more thoughtful? That Ares Alpha you had to leave at the run to pick up and carry your dying mate, should magically reappear, or Iím being unfun? That bullet that killed your character, and permanently removed all the nuyen and karma ever spent violated the spirit of the game?

This isnít the A-Team. People die. Players die. Things get destroyed. Making bad choices costs you, some times your life. Making the right choices may even cost you your life. This is a gritty dystopian cyberpunk future filled with death despair and loss.
Faelan
I guess you are right about the rules being there, I missed it.

If your players don't know where you are coming from, and how you run a game then yes it is a violation of their trust.

Quickened spells - I got no problem with them getting dispelled, because quite simply the player is attempting to gain a permanent ability.

Foci - In my mind are items that are easily circumvented, and don't see a need to permanently remove them from play.

Quick question since things are supposed to be so dark and dismal, do you roll to see if every object a player is carrying is destroyed if a grenade goes off? Do we roll to see if a cyberlimb malfunction every time a player is shot? Do you roll to see if all the equipment a Street Sam is carrying shatters into a million pieces everytime they get nailed with a Powerball? So why would you specifically enforce it when it comes to a Mages Foci?

That's all I am asking, do you apply all these equally? If the answer is no, and you have not warned that offending mage then, yes you are violating their trust.

Sorry I prefer a game without 15 rolls every time a player get's nailed, I guess I like it a little more cinematic, but definitely not A-Team. Oh by the way bringing up the A-Team definitely falls under the category of fighting words wink.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Faelan @ Jan 2 2007, 02:00 PM)
Quickened spells - I got no problem with them getting dispelled, because quite simply the player is attempting to gain a permanent ability.

And a character who leaves a sustaining focus on 24/7 isn't?

question.gif question.gif question.gif
Faelan
Can someone pickpocket a quickened spell? No.
Can someone pickpocket a focus? Yes.

Both players are attempting the same thing, having a 24/7 spell. One has risked karma only, the other karma and nuyen. The player with the Quickened spell has accepted the risk of losing it entirely with much greater ease than the player with the focus. The karma expenditure does not even come close to being equal. In my mind, a focus is far more permanent than a quickened spell. Of course to turn off a focus it just needs to be removed from the possession of the character, you can't do that to a quickened spell so in the interest of balance they make it much easier to permanently can it. Comparable aim, different method, and one has a much higher probability of being eliminated. I don't see the problem.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Faelan)
If your players don't know where you are coming from, and how you run a game then yes it is a violation of their trust.


As I indicated, Iíd be more likely to tell a player that what they are trying to do runs counter to what your character thinks is wise and let them choose.

QUOTE (Faelan)
Quick question since things are supposed to be so dark and dismal, do you roll to see if every object a player is carrying is destroyed if a grenade goes off? Do we roll to see if a cyberlimb malfunction every time a player is shot? Do you roll to see if all the equipment a Street Sam is carrying shatters into a million pieces everytime they get nailed with a Powerball? So why would you specifically enforce it when it comes to a Mages Foci?


Here is actually a difficult case, or cases as the case may be.

As far as a powerball goes items carried by your character are part of their Aura. So the player resists a physical spell and he gets cooked from the inside out, the items donít enter into it. When a spell is being cast from the astral and cannot affect the player and if he has active foci they are present in the astral and must therefore be separate from his aura. I would grant that a dual player (perceiving) would be able to protect his active foci. However a manaball cast by a mage in the physical will have the player as an option as well so the foci would count as in his aura and could not be selectively targeted.

As to a grenade, I would generally say that the barrier rating of most of the items youíre carrying is sufficient to resist the damage of the grenade unless there is some special cases when a player is dealing with something fragile.

I would do all this in the interest of game play. The point about destroying a focus on purpose is that an astrally projecting mage specifically targets the foci for one reason or another. This is a stick I would pull out to curb abuse, not for player torture.

As I see it this thread is basically about how do you stop a player from abusing sustaining foci and getting basically a superior form of quickening from a single Karma outlay.
Faelan
Of course this is when the player breaks out the sustained focus for his Astral Armor Spell, and things start to get even more interesting, as the arms race escalates. Physical theft I think is the surest way to curb the abuse, not to mention you can get a whole slew of adventures out of it as the now seriously weakened Mage attempts to recover his toys.
Glyph
QUOTE (Demerzel)
Try inherently unequal if youíre talking about running 4 Sustaining Foci with Improved Reflexes, Armor, Increased Agility and Increased Strength.  A mage can have the equivalent of Wired 3, Dermal Armor Rating 4, Muscle Toner 4, and Muscle Aug 4.  All at chargen, at the cost of 4 rating 4 sustaining foci, BP to bond, BP to learn the spells.  A street sam would just have a negative essence and be dead.  Now how is that equal access and make you think that being harsh about a player overusing foci is overkill?

Nope, nope, nope.

For starters, sustaining foci can only be up to Force: 3 at char-gen. So the increase reflexes spell can only get up to threshold 3, slightly inferior to wired reflexes: 2 (since you only get an initiative bonus, rather than an increase to Reaction, which lets you dodge better as well).

The two increase Attribute spells are even worse off, since the Force of the spell has to be equal or better to the augmented value of the Attribute. In other words, the best you could do would be to increase two Attributes of 1 up to 3. Hardly game-breaking. smile.gif

Note that even if you took an extremely liberal reading of the spell description, and said "It must mean the amount it is augmented by, not the end total" - it would still not be too overpowered. A mage won't start out with those Attributes that high to begin with, and if he's taking the ranged or melee skills that Agility and Strength apply to, he'll be spreading himself thin to the point of uselessness. Honestly, a mage using these spells would be better off increasing Body and Reaction.

And finally, the armor spell, which I have already touched upon. It's a good spell in the middle of a firefight, but walking down the street with it is not generally a good idea, unless you are in the middle of a warzone in the Barrens.

The cost of this has already been remarked upon. As someone who has number-crunched a lot of spellslingers, I can tell you that you need to make sacrifices if you need any foci at all, and 60 build points is a HUGE hit. Any mage spending that much on sustaining foci will probably have very low physical Attributes, minimal Edge, and a bare-bones allocation of skills. It's really not worth it.
lorechaser
Small point:

Armor can be replaced by the spell in Street Magic that gives dodge against bullets. It doesn't glow, and has a non-obvious effect.

Glyph
Deflection is a nice spell, but remember it is only good against ranged attacks. Plus, I would probably rather simply sustain it if I needed it, instead of using a sustaining focus and having it limited to three successes.

That's another thing. For single spells, sustaining is a more valid option in SR4 than it was in SR3. A -2 dice penalty is much less harsh than a +2 TN penalty.
knasser
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jan 1 2007, 11:12 PM)
QUOTE (knasser @ Jan 1 2007, 03:44 PM)
Foci Addiction doesn't bother me. I have one that sustains "Alleviate Addiction" cool.gif

For those of you who might not realize Knasser's being funny:

"Note that this spell does not work against the effects of Focus Addiction"
Alleviate Addiction spell description, p.169, Street Magic


People often don't realise I'm being funny. I don't know why. Sometimes I actually have to tell them to laugh. frown.gif


wink.gif


On the subject of Quickening and wards, is it really that much of a risk? If you have something quickened at force 1 with no additional karma then it is. But if I were a player, I wouldn't be taking chances. I, like most players, am obsessive when it comes to not wasting karma. For the classic Increase Reflexes, it's going to have to be Force 4 for best effect to begin with. That would let a mage spend up to eight points for effective force to resist disruption already. If you use Quickening Materials from Street Magic, you could get that up to 12. I don't think it's very common to be forced through wards, though I suppose some GMs would have a penchant for it. In the eventuality that a character is forced through, then 12 dice will outdo most wards and I see no reason to disallow using edge, either.

Now you've spent more karma than you otherwise would, but you get what you pay for and I reckon spending 12 karma for permanent 4 IP is a good bargain. If I were playing, I'd probably go for slightly higher force and spend a little bit more, even.

The mage still has some limitations that the samurai does not. He'll have to find other ways past some wards and he has to spend (or ought to spend) valuable early metamagic techniques on Masking and Extended Masking.

But with a bit of overspend and some intelligent playing, Quickening isn't a terrible risk, maybe.
fistandantilus4.0
Anyone worked out quickened tattoos like in Magic in the Shadows? May be more to give you to push through words. I can't recall, but does forcing a foci/quickend spell through the ward alert the wards creator?

QUOTE (knasser)
Sometimes I actually have to tell them to laugh.

biggrin.gif
laughingowl
Question:

What about house ruling that 'quickening' a spell is more like a limited sustaining focus.

The karma spent if building a permenant matrix.

While it can be disrupted (by passing through ward, couterspelling, etc), with a re-applicaiton of the spell (locked in at effective force) it can be restarted.

Or perhaps make this an 'enhnaced' quickening meta-magic requiring quickening as the pre-req.


As a compromise befween the two, perhaps 'rebuilding' the matrix cost 1 karma. So there is some 'pain' in getting i dispelled/broken, but long term considerably cheaper then the as current rules.
Ancient History
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Anyone worked out quickened tattoos like in Magic in the Shadows?

Street Magic: Magical Goods -> Advanced Foci -> Metamagic Enchantments -> Quickening Materials.
fistandantilus4.0
Thanks AH, I'll look that up when I get home. Got a game involving yaks and triads. Way to be AH-on-the-spot. smile.gif
knasser
QUOTE (laughingowl @ Jan 3 2007, 05:27 AM)
Question:

What about house ruling that 'quickening' a spell is more like a limited sustaining focus.

The karma spent if building a permenant matrix.

While it can be disrupted (by passing through ward, couterspelling, etc),  with a re-applicaiton of the spell (locked in at effective force) it can be restarted.

Or perhaps make this an 'enhnaced' quickening meta-magic requiring quickening as the pre-req.


As a compromise befween the two, perhaps 'rebuilding' the matrix cost 1 karma.  So there is some 'pain' in getting i dispelled/broken, but long term considerably cheaper then the as current rules.


I like this idea as a compromise - rebuild for half-cost, say. Or maybe 2 karma to reactivate. It would make it more of an agonised decision whether to go through that ward or not, rather than just unthinkable as it is now. I'm not sure I would use it though or not. Sometimes bad things happen to a character and that's the way it is. I also kind of like forcing a player to make tactical decisions like this - high risk, low stakes; or low-risk, high stakes.

Nah, just talked myself into leaving it the way it is. Very good idea, though.

Fistandantilus (I'm still trying to work out what an "antilus" is, by the way, assuming you are a "fist and" one of them), there was a tatoo artist, dwarf I think, in Runner Havens that it's strongly hinted is using this technique to do magical tattoos on people. I think he had Triad or Yak connections. Can't remember which.
ornot
QUOTE (Thanee)
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 1 2007, 11:24 PM)
...it GLOWS, people!

That's a good point! rotfl.gif

Bye
Thanee

hehe.. I used to do that in SR3. Casting armour on the heavily armoured troll Pys Ad encouraged all the enemies to concentrate their fire on him, and not on my fragile, barely armoured elf mage!
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (knasser)
Fistandantilus (I'm still trying to work out what an "antilus" is, by the way, assuming you are a "fist and" one of them), there was a tatoo artist, dwarf I think, in Runner Havens that it's strongly hinted is using this technique to do magical tattoos on people. I think he had Triad or Yak connections. Can't remember which.


rotfl.gif

I'll look that up, thanks. Was that in the Seattle section or HK?
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