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Banaticus
SR4 mentions a couple of times that nobody can have both a Magic attribute and a Resonance attribute. What's the OOC justification for that -- would it really be gamebreaking?
Jack Kain
Why? because they are not compatible.
And Awaken individual is attuned to mana.
A technomancer is attuned to the matrix.

The flow of magic just wouldn't work on one who's mind is always plugged into the matrix.
Catharz Godfoot
A character trying to use both magic and matrix would be spread increadibly thin. Technomancers are already hard to build.

The only possible abuse I can see is a Technomancer adept boosting his skills to crazy heights, and avoiding Resonance loss from cyber/bioware.

But I don't think it would be broken. And the idea of a technomancer is kinda silly anyway, I don't see how a magic-using technomancer is any worse. If you had technomancy work off extreme neural cybernetics, or being an AI (the rules work great for both), magic use would only be difficult due to extreme essence loss.


Maybe if the DM was allowing 800 BP character it would be broken.
Jack Kain
At 800 BP everything is broken
Fortune
Technomancers are already awakened! nyahnyah.gif wink.gif
hyzmarca
It would be broken in the other direction, I'm afraid. Splitting karma and BP between magical abilities and technomantic abilities will produce some very crappy characters.
jervinator
While I don't see any valid reason why an extremely talented and intelligent individual couldn't wield both, from a game mechanics point of view I agree with Hyzmarca. Then again, ALL characters have to worry about depth versus breadth. Try stabbing someone with a Swiss Army knife wink.gif
Ranneko
For the same reason that Otaku could never be awakened.
Kerris
QUOTE (Ranneko)
For the same reason that Otaku could never be awakened.

I might be wrong, but isn't the following statement true?

Technomancer == Otaku
Rotbart van Dainig
It's false.
Kerris
Hmmm... okay, I'll see if I can find the section in the BBB that made me think that (once I'm home from work... in 8 hours or so)
ElFenrir
QUOTE
Technomancer == Otaku


I always considered Technomancers as Otaku +. In a way, even though some say Technos are a little underpowered. (I dont think they are underpowered, I think that their class is a little more BP dependent than the other classes, even mages, which are pretty BP dependent out of the box.) Lets say as a GM, i might raise my eyebrows at a barely cybered Face taking a buttload of negative qualities for points, for a Technomancer id understand.

Technos have, well, more social skills it seems for one. Technomancers, while they might be kinda nerdy and prone to enjoy the Matrix, seem to be head and shoulders above the fragile, never leaving the house, living in the machine Otaku. Otaku also had to plug into the machine physically....they just needed a deck. Technomancers dont even need that, and are hindered by such ware.

Now, back to original thread point....im in the boat of a Resonance and Magic toting character would be spread WAAAY too thin at the start, and need a ton of karma to even start to catch up to where their counterparts started....in which that time their counterparts would be waay beyond. And imagine the karma sink of Submersion AND Initation. I mean, it wouldnt be overpowered unless you earned about 1,000 karma, and if you stick with it that long, you DESERVE a god. grinbig.gif

Banaticus
Yes, SR4 specifically stated that Technomancers are those formerly known as Otaku.
QUOTE
Before anyone could get a firm grasp on the situation, it took another leap forward with the Crash of ’64 . . . It took several years for the new rumors and reports to cohere, but undoubtedly something was different. A new generation of otaku had been born—only this time they were no longer just children. Most of the young otaku of old had also undergone a transformation, and they found that their powers no longer faded with age. This new breed rechristened themselves as technomancers—specialists in manipulating the Matrix with nothing more than their minds. (SR4, p. 232)


Several people have said, "Yes they would be broken, as they would be spread incredibly thin." That's not the definition of broken that I meant -- I meant as in powergaming, would technomancer/mages be too powerful? Why not let a character have both a resonance rating and a magic rating, perhaps splitting one pool into two as mystic adeps split their pool between magic and adept powers? Would allowing this allow a character to be too powerful?

My first thought is, as some have said, that a character like this would be spread far, far too thin and would be upstaged by her teammates all the time. Thus, I don't see a problem with this. If someone really, really wants to make an ineffective character, why not let them? Or is there something that I'm missing, some game breaking reason as to why a true technomancer can't be created?

[A (whatever)mancer is one who practices (whatever)mancy. -Mancy is an English suffix that was derived from Old French -mancie, from Late Latin -mantīa and from Greek manteia. Simply put, it means uncovering hidden knowledge, or seeing the future, by mystical means. Thus, a necromancer would be one who seeks knowledge through necrotic techniques. Which means that a technomancer should be some sort of technological wizard, which I guess they sort of are with their ability to access the matric from everywhere, but they have no actual ability to work real magic.]
toturi
But in SR3, Otaku could be Awakened. Just very very very rare.

And if a technomancer could be Awakened, he would be the Wiki-Google of the Sixth world. An Awakened technomancer can have access to Divining and have his Data Sprite to do Data Search, his Machine Sprite and his (Guard-power) spirit to do Stability and Guard for no glitching.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (toturi)
But in SR3, Otaku could be Awakened.

No, they couldn't.

QUOTE (ElFenrir)
I always considered Technomancers as Otaku +.

To keep the semantic: Otaku++. grinbig.gif
ElFenrir
QUOTE
To keep the semantic: Otaku++. grinbig.gif


Or an extra: Otaku with personality and a life. grinbig.gif grinbig.gif

Really, thats the big difference for me, and the fact they are wireless. Then again, i think they are only wireless because the matrix itself is wireless these days.
Fortune
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (toturi)
But in SR3, Otaku could be Awakened.

No, they couldn't.

I believe toturi is refering to the rare Otaku who underwent SURGE and became 'awakened' in that manner. wink.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 8 2007, 04:38 AM)
QUOTE (toturi)
But in SR3, Otaku could be Awakened.

No, they couldn't.

I believe toturi is refering to the rare Otaku who underwent SURGE and became 'awakened' in that manner. wink.gif

*whistles* cool.gif
Konsaki
Twinking at it's finest. nyahnyah.gif
Banaticus
Why would it be twinking at its finest?
Demonseed Elite
Not all pre-Crash 2.0 otaku became technomancers. Also, not all present-day technomancers began as otaku.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Fortune)
Technomancers are already awakened! nyahnyah.gif wink.gif

Well, the fact that Otaku and Techno's can't also be (another type of?) magicians has always been, IMO, the single strongest argument of the "magical otaku" camp.
Banaticus
Ok, pardon my French, but what the hell is the magical otaku camp and how is it relevant?
Ravor
Basically there are two trains of theought when it comes to Technomancers which are:

(1) Technomacers are in fact a new kind of Mage and is proof that the beliefs and enviroment of the 6th Age is adapting and changing Magic. Hence Technomancers can't become Mages because they are already Awakened. (Of course this theory doesn't explain why there are no Techno/Adepts running around.)

(2) Technomancers are proof that the meta-human brain is changing and evolving into something more, the only real questions are whether it represents a natural course or if someone or something is altering the minds of meta-humanity, and of course, why.


Personally I fall into the second camp because I like my Magic and Tech to be seperate although I have a sickening feeling that the 'offical' word is going to trend towards the first camp.

*Edit*

Personally I've always assumed that the reason Technomacers couldn't be Mages and visa-versa is that both require the same parts of the brain to be active, but in different ways in order to sense the Mana/Wireless flow. (We know from Third Edition that the brain activity from spellcasting was detectable and could be used to trigger a cranial bomb, but no-one knew for sure what parts of the brain were actually in use so they couldn't reliably lobotamize Mages, so I don't think its a far stretch to extend and claim that some parts of the brain are active all of the time, its just not detectible yet.)
ShadowDragon8685
Personally, I'm inclined to say that if you want the schrew yourself up the rear with a Black & Decker via the assistance of a troll named Bubba, you're perfectly free to.

Which is about analgous to spending points on both Resonance and Magic, and thend spending points in both the Magical and Otaku skills.........

Yeah. Forget about ever doing anything else. All your Karma and nuyen.gif are going straight into that karma-hole.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Banaticus)
Why would it be twinking at its finest?

Even if one would stretch the wording of the sentence that no technomancer ever was magically active, that would only result in the post-gen cripple-awakening per Astral Sight.
On the other hand, a dual-natured otaku was perfectly possible...
Banaticus
"...that would only result in the post-gen cripple-awakening per Astral Sight."

I'm sorry, I don't understand what that means. I realize that it would be a massive karma sink -- I have no desire to do it myself and don't know anyone who wants to play such a character. But why does the book so strongly prohibit it?
Fortune
QUOTE (Banaticus)
But why does the book so strongly prohibit it?

Because ...

QUOTE (Fortune)
Technomancers are already awakened!


wink.gif
Jack Kain
Or it could be technomancers being the next evolution of otaku (which were created by artifical intelligences.)
They are former Otaku or among the masses trapped in the matrix when it crashed. It could be said no mage could have surrived as there minds would have been cut off from mana.
Konsaki
I'm thinking we will find out more when Emergence comes out.
Ravor
I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that the first Technomancers were discovered after the Crash 2.0, not that they either had to be survivors of that or former Otaku, or that all or even most of the survivors became Technomacers themselves. (So I think one could say that a Mage could have survived trapped in the Matrix as well as they could in space, at least in the short term.)
laughingowl
Well unless it got errated you CAN:

Latent Awakening


Isnt restricted to 'non-technomancers'. Now you awaken when you GM feels like it, and to what aspect he feels like... So better be nice smile.gif

But as printed, it would allow a TM to become magically active.


As to why not...

Mechanically (and perhaps even 'fluff' wise) it shouldnt shatter anything.


You will either 1) needs ALOT of karma or 2) be very poor at everything, but it could work.
Fortune
QUOTE (laughingowl)
Well unless it got errated you CAN:

Latent Awakening


Isnt restricted to 'non-technomancers'. Now you awaken when you GM feels like it, and to what aspect he feels like... So better be nice smile.gif

But as printed, it would allow a TM to become magically active.

To be pedantic ...

QUOTE (Street Magic - pg. 25)
The gamemaster also chooses either the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality, and immediately applies it to the character. This quality defines how the character has Awakened.


Since the character is assigned one of these Qualities, and each and every of these Qualities specifically bars Technomancers from taking them, then technically this is not a valid route.
hyzmarca
Let us say that if a character has two incompatible qualities one is erased by the other. In this case, if a Technomancer Awakens via Latent Awakening he would lose the Technomancer quality. However, when Unwired comes out there is sure to be a Latent Technomancer quality or equivilant. If this is the case a character could take both and switch between being awakened and being a technomancer at the GM's whim.
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