I've been trying to figure out the recoil of a Panther Cannon in Shadowrun 4.

According to the write up it has massive recoil and according to the rules Assault Cannons have x2 recoil and the Panther Cannon has a RC of (1). But...

The Panther Cannon only fires single shots, so they have NO recoil. So why even give them Recoil Compensation in their stats?

Or am I missing some rule from another part of the book? Because the write-up of the gun, does not match the stats or the rules.

Can anyone help?

notwithstanding they supposedly have massive recoil, the game stats do not reflect that fact.

additionally, they only have double uncompensated recoil; so, even if you were to somehow fire a PAC twice in the same IP, you'd be looking at no recoil penalty, provided you use the shock pad on the stock.

As a GM, if I had a player trying to fire a panther cannon without support, I would give it a straight up 4 recoil for the single shot on that round. Thats without the X2 added in.

Here's the last thread it was discussed in. It has come up several times before.

Why would you give someone a recoil penalty on the first shot, ever? You can give the character some other type of penalty if he's not strong enough to hold the weapon steady while aiming, but the nice thing about recoil is that it really doesn't take effect until the projectile the firing of which caused it has already cleared the muzzle.

Due to the length of the barrel and the charge of the propellant, the unsupported character experiences kickback before the round has even exited the barrel. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

The Panther would be a hefty thing to fire. I can see the argument for not having a penalty on the first shot, but I can see making the shooter make some kind of check if they aren't prone or braced for the shot. My guess is that it would be at least like the Barret .50 rifle. I've seen those fired and the recoil is impressive. You can rapid fire if prone or otherwise braced, but standing or moving when firing would be a challenge.

There are people (like me) who think that the assault cannon is best described as an anti material rifle.

When I started military training, I had a bloody bruise under my eye, where the (upper end of the) stock of the G3 hit my cheekbone repeatedly. Later on, I learned to brace my shoulder properly.
There were stories of severe bruising of shoulders, which I can believe, to broken collarbones, for which one would have to be pretty dumb or unlucky .

My point: even on SS, where the shot isn't affected by recoil, recoil could become a problem.

Konsaki: Fine by me. I think Assault Cannons are m4jyckal in most SR games anyway.

BarrettRifles.Com has changed recently so the video is gone, but there used to be a clip there showing a very average-built man rapidly firing an M82A1 (.50 BMG semi-automatic rifle) and an M95 (.50 BMG bolt action bullpup rifle) standing unsupported. The recoil is hefty, no doubt, but nothing a human can't handle. A bigger problem when firing one without support is that the guns are very long and very, very heavy. If you believe the recoil on a Panther Assault Cannon should be a few times more forceful than on a .50 BMG rifle, then making people fall down unless they're braced somehow might make sense -- but then you should be prepared to explain why the weapon doesn't utterly fuck up any humanoid it hits.

Moving while firing a massive weapon meant for extremely long range engagements is a really stupid idea, quite regardless of recoil.

Recoil of a high powered rifle sucks.
While none of those people are professional shadowrunners, you do get a good mix of human males firing a .577 and suffering the hellish recoil from the single shot. Yes, I do know that a majority of the shooters probably only had a 1 to 2 skill rating due to the way they were trying to brace themselves, but even those that were set up correctly either lost control of the gun or suffered huge kickback.

Most of those look like they haven't even got skill 1. They have no idea whatsoever how to brace themselves for the blow. The way some of them were firing it, they would've fallen over from a .308 Win. The last guy is the only one who appears to know how you're supposed to fire a large caliber rifle. Also, none of those shots were any less accurate because of the recoil -- the weapon simply doesn't have time to move because of the recoil until the bullet has left the barrel.

Barrett M107 fired from the standing unsupported position and from the kneeling position.

I just figure it is in the league of a 14.7mm (about .58 cal) or even as big as a 20mm (.787) anti material rifle. 20mm makes sense since it says it is the same stuff used in small tanks as their main cannon. It was probably designed to disable APCs, or to destroy the engine in just about anything short of a ship's engine. So you might do knockdown, stun damage (follow up shots after a poorly braced shot with a big rifle might be difficult, or with a critical glitch on stun resist make it physical and give them a broken shoulder) or allow the recoil to carry over to the next IP.

My dad worked with someone who bought a .460 weatherby (about 11.7mm for comparison) or some other dangerous game rifle. He shot it twice before he sold it. Both times he broke his shoulder.

I would require a knockdown test with a threshold of 2 for anyone with a lower Strength and/or Body of 5 or 6 just to represent the recoil that is represented in the description of the PAC.

When I said the 20mm tank round I was actually thinking of the 20mm AA gun but figured they had a similar size gun on a tank. I can't seem to find a 20mm tank round, just anti tank rifles and AA.

Probably best to just disregard the bbb's description and HR the gun.

I was thinking a Heavy Weapons+Body (2) or (3) with glitch resulting in # of 1s minus successes in stun damage and critical glith in physical damage. Both with their own damage resist test

The PAC is primarily an antipersonnel weapon. It just doesn't have the power to be effective against vehicles.

An anti vehicle rocket/missile has damage of 16P and AP of -6. The Panther is 10P -5. I see no reason why this isn't in light anti vehicle range. I also see no reason why APDS (I'm assuming explosive is the default ammo for this weapon) wouldn't be available especially since APDS is a common type of anti material round. It wouldn't have the same damage as a missile since it is smaller and carries less explosive charge but it is a solid chunk of depleted uranium or tungsten or whatever super hard material they learn they can make bullets from.

The PAC is a well designed large caliber rifle. In RL, I have shot many rounds from .22 to .44/.44AutoMag/.457/etc. Take for instance, the .44mag. In a handgun it is unruly and very hard to shoot. First shot is cool. but all other shots are harder and harder to keep on target even with a minute or two between shots. Lots of bang, not much weapon to take care of it. Now a good .44mag rifle doesnt have any more kick than a 9mm handgun. A rifle that is not setup for the recoil will suck but any decent (or better) rifle designed for a larger caiber will have plenty of recoil compensation, and be adjuected for it, etc.

Here is another example. a .308 deer rifle is designed to shot once (maybe twice) in a row. With large gaps in between. First shot is not bad at all. Second+ gets a little rougher. Now the Marine M24 Sniper Rifle. Basically the same .308 rifle except it is setup/designed so it can be shot over and over and over again with almost no recoil. Big difference between the two. Same caliber weapon, same basic rounds (generally the M24 will have high grade match rounds and the hunting rifle with have anything from the cheap rounds to match grade depending on whom is shooting).

The Marines (among other military snipers) have a .50 caliber sniper rifle. I have not had a chance to shoot it yet but my buddies that have say the recoil on it is barely more than a .308 hunting rifle (more than the M24 but not by a large margin). They say they can fire it 1 round / 30 second for 50 rounds and not really feel it afterwards. But that rifle over an average weapon is designed to compensate for the recoill and it is all adjusted for it. So it is very accurate for a very long range without damaging the shooter.

and about that video someone posted a link above. What idiots! None of they were not ready for that weapon. Plus as you can see, that weapon had no recoil comp, and wasnt designed for that large of a caliber.

just my opinion....
dog

When you are talking one round every 3 seconds, that is rapid fire for a big gun, especially if you are doing 10 rounds in a row. I have a vz.24 (czech made mauser) in 8mm mauser. One round every 3 seconds is rapid fire for any rifle.

To get back to the question in the initial post, the answer is obvious! The fluff about there being so much recoil is just explaining why it is only SS.

Apologies if someone has already said or implied this and I missed it.

So if someone were to introduce an assault cannon that didn't have the built in recoil comp that comes with the Panther, firing it would be an extended test with an interval of 2-3 combat turns or something?