Full Version: From bears to bullets
the story of my life 
I long for an inexplicable return to steel plates like in Alien 2.
| QUOTE (Hocus Pocus) |
| the story of my life |
Well, at least your thread was posted in the right forum. There's nothing SR4 specific about some mad scientist with a grudge against bears building mil-grade combat armor.
How do you know he has a grudge against bears? Maybe he loves them so much he invented a suit of armor that allows him to hug and rub up against them. Maybe his personal suit has a flip-down codpiece so he can ... Nevermind I'm going to stop now. 
Actually I'm not so sure his bear suit had so much against bears as developing some sort of full body protective armor that could take serious punishment.
Certainly he learned alot of practical hands on experience going around in those suits. His initial modles were bad enough he couldnt get back up in them by himself if I recall.
And the thing is, dispite the rather... odd shape of his new suit. It might very well be better in some impact points than the more 'sleek' suits you see from other folk with the same aim. There is, afterall one hell of a good reason full plate in the mideval ages is not 'sleek'. While some of it was technology constraints, alot of it was infact done on purpose. Those really odd angled helmets, wierd/sharp protrusions from armor etc, were all made that way to better deflect sword blows.
Infact by the 1500's the average knight in full body armor, was completely unstopable so to speak. They were litterally like running a modern day tank into infantry. The only real problem came when they were up against opponents using clubs and other blunt weapons. WHich is why such things quickly came into use to counter them. Because really there were only two counters to knights. Enough people to overwhelm them and stab them through weaker joints.
Or one or two people wielding clubs. The force of impact of which could fracture bone through the plate.
Now apply that concept to modern body armor. Put in a layer of this so called balisitc foam they talk about. Add in a few other things to help lessen kinetic shock, put in surfaces that are conductive to deflection of a bullet/shrapnel, rather than actually made to take and stop a direct hit. Course in some areas you'd have to take one or the other but in the end that 'wierd' suit might well do alot better than that 'sleek and sexy' suit.
While the supposed fact that it can stop an elephant gun round is rather impressive, I'd be much more interested to see what it can stop in the way of actual military ordinance.
Certainly he learned alot of practical hands on experience going around in those suits. His initial modles were bad enough he couldnt get back up in them by himself if I recall.
And the thing is, dispite the rather... odd shape of his new suit. It might very well be better in some impact points than the more 'sleek' suits you see from other folk with the same aim. There is, afterall one hell of a good reason full plate in the mideval ages is not 'sleek'. While some of it was technology constraints, alot of it was infact done on purpose. Those really odd angled helmets, wierd/sharp protrusions from armor etc, were all made that way to better deflect sword blows.
Infact by the 1500's the average knight in full body armor, was completely unstopable so to speak. They were litterally like running a modern day tank into infantry. The only real problem came when they were up against opponents using clubs and other blunt weapons. WHich is why such things quickly came into use to counter them. Because really there were only two counters to knights. Enough people to overwhelm them and stab them through weaker joints.
Or one or two people wielding clubs. The force of impact of which could fracture bone through the plate.
Now apply that concept to modern body armor. Put in a layer of this so called balisitc foam they talk about. Add in a few other things to help lessen kinetic shock, put in surfaces that are conductive to deflection of a bullet/shrapnel, rather than actually made to take and stop a direct hit. Course in some areas you'd have to take one or the other but in the end that 'wierd' suit might well do alot better than that 'sleek and sexy' suit.
While the supposed fact that it can stop an elephant gun round is rather impressive, I'd be much more interested to see what it can stop in the way of actual military ordinance.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| There is, afterall one hell of a good reason full plate in the mideval ages is not 'sleek'. While some of it was technology constraints, alot of it was infact done on purpose. Those really odd angled helmets, wierd/sharp protrusions from armor etc, were all made that way to better deflect sword blows. |
I'll play the non-native speaker card again, but I would call most medieval and renaissance combat armor quite sleek. They are as smooth as possible, often quite rounded, and have as few inside angles as possible. Something like the suit above would work like a fricken catcher's mitt to make sure each and every projectile would impact at full force at a single spot instead of being deflected.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| They were litterally like running a modern day tank into infantry. |
Well, with the exception that an MBT doesn't stop if it's faced with a pike wall.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| While the supposed fact that it can stop an elephant gun round is rather impressive, I'd be much more interested to see what it can stop in the way of actual military ordinance. |
In fact, I don't consider it worth a damn until he submits a few to serious ballistic testing. As I said in the other thread, at that weight and cost, I'm surprised if it can handle basic rifle FMJs.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| Actually I'm not so sure his bear suit had so much against bears as developing some sort of full body protective armor that could take serious punishment. |
He was attacked back in '84 by a grizzly and survived. As he was healing up, he began researching what science had to say on the subject of bear attacks. He found that other than a handful of personal accounts from lucky survivors like himself, there were very few field observations on how bears behave before and during an attack. Not surprising, as most field biologists who study bears do so from the safety of a protected enclosure, a method which is rather limiting. (You can only observe the bear when they're in view of the window in your enclosure, and even then, often the bear is too far away for detailed observations.)
He figured that if there were a way to armor a field biologist so that they could follow and observe a bear up close, that it would result in more research in bears.
The military armor is just a spin-off technology.
I'm not so sure about the weight issue. Look at the weight of full plate armor from the 1500's 1600s.
That stuff isnt at all as heavy as most people think. A human being in decent shape can run, jump, dive, roll and keep on running in that stuff. Modern materials can make for a pretty light suit overall and still give you even more protection than an old full plate suit.
I do however agree on the bit about submitting it to a proper and full balistics test. Which is what I ment by wanting to see how well it actually stood up to miltary rounds etc. And not just shooting it in the chest. I want to see how the extremity protection holds up to things like being caught in a grenade blast, etc. Things your likely to (And very much have had) soldiers subjected to in the battlefield.
I'd hardly expect a suit to take a direct blast from a grenade however. Afterall I dont think there's any body armor out there that really can. Even a bomb blast suit has it's limits and thats definately not the kind of armor you can just prance about in.
I'm also currious as to what exactly that 'balisic foam' was that the article mentions. And just how good that stuff is. Armor doesnt nessecarily have to weigh 1000lbs for it to be good. What you have to take into account is the overall effect of what your trying to stop or lessen the injury of. It's for example why those who could afford it in the 18-1900s wore silk shirts. They offered very minor protection against weapons overall, but their primary 'protection' was really what happeend to a lead ball when you got hit. Instead of the ball putting a hole in you and dragging in alls orts of bits of your clothes and god knows what else, which almost allways lead to infection. Which was infact, an even bigger killer than the actual balls themselves...
Instead what at least, usually happened was the ball entered, dragged in the silk after it. And at least from all the accounts I've read of it, you could then simply pull on the silk shirt and not only would you drag the shirt out of the wound, but along with it came the ball. That and supposedly the resistance from teh shirt being dragged in helped slow the ball abit. The real big 'protection' from it though was that uppon extraction, you were left with a relatively clean wound. And so if you surived the hit, you were far less likely to die later due to severe infection of the wound.
Now that isnt realy much of an issue these days. But what really makes alot of body armor heavy these days from what I understand is the steel/ceramic plates etc. I havent really followed modern development of armor that closely, so I at least have to ask the question of.. what exactly is there out there now? Thats the latest greatest in personal balistic protection?
Kevlar and similar are of course big ones. Hell Kevlar is so common now it's used in boot laces. And I know Kevlar is hardly the end all be all. Also a kevlar vest, while it can be rather hot to wear in the summer. Isnt really all that heavy. And while it wont stop the really big stuff it can still stop a fair bit of 'common' munition types on the lower spectrum of things.
I suppose the foam thing really is a big question mark for me. Because, I know I've seen at least a little bit about that kinda stuff. And alot of it seemed rather decent. But it really worked on that whole kinetic factor again. Becuase thats really what does the damage for most rifle rounds. The bullet shape and design of course plays a good part in it's penetrative capabilities, so too the actual composition of the bullet. But take enough kinetic force away from that 7.62mm round and just about anything can stop it. The real trick of course, is doing that in the first place.
As I understand it, Kevlar and balistic foams basically do tha by dispursing some of the force of the hit across the entire surface. Which is really the aim of all personal armor. It's just that most of it really doesnt do a good enough job of that to stop the typical miltary round. So you go to hard surfaces. Ceramics does a great job of that... once. Maybe twice. But then it's so broken up it's no good at all from what I understand. So then you go to steel. Steel is alot heavier and harder. So it stops more.. but... then it's totally inflexible and doesnt really do such a hot job of spreading the impact around.
So is there anything more modern, that in conjuction will do the job at least a little better? Enough to make a difference without rendering a person near immobile?
Of course what I'm really waiting for is the day power storage catchs up with the rest of technology. And then some one can design a proper powersuit. Which will really help get rid of alot of the weight issues. Which then opens up more materials for use as armor. Course you still need to get the cost down a good deal for it to be justifiable.
Ultimately the article leaves out too many details, and while the pictures are decent. They dont really show enough of the suit to get a good overal 'idea' of just how blocky some parts of the suit really are (or arnt). Ultimately though I'd really just call his suit a 'proof of concept' prototype. Considering he's doing this all out of his own pocket, even if it cant stop military rounds I'm rather impressed. What he really needs is some one to pick up the idea and run with it. Keep him in the loop since he's proven he can make stuff work. Hook him up with a few more experts and more importantly the actual funding and resources needed to turn out a proper finished (And tested) product.
That stuff isnt at all as heavy as most people think. A human being in decent shape can run, jump, dive, roll and keep on running in that stuff. Modern materials can make for a pretty light suit overall and still give you even more protection than an old full plate suit.
I do however agree on the bit about submitting it to a proper and full balistics test. Which is what I ment by wanting to see how well it actually stood up to miltary rounds etc. And not just shooting it in the chest. I want to see how the extremity protection holds up to things like being caught in a grenade blast, etc. Things your likely to (And very much have had) soldiers subjected to in the battlefield.
I'd hardly expect a suit to take a direct blast from a grenade however. Afterall I dont think there's any body armor out there that really can. Even a bomb blast suit has it's limits and thats definately not the kind of armor you can just prance about in.
I'm also currious as to what exactly that 'balisic foam' was that the article mentions. And just how good that stuff is. Armor doesnt nessecarily have to weigh 1000lbs for it to be good. What you have to take into account is the overall effect of what your trying to stop or lessen the injury of. It's for example why those who could afford it in the 18-1900s wore silk shirts. They offered very minor protection against weapons overall, but their primary 'protection' was really what happeend to a lead ball when you got hit. Instead of the ball putting a hole in you and dragging in alls orts of bits of your clothes and god knows what else, which almost allways lead to infection. Which was infact, an even bigger killer than the actual balls themselves...
Instead what at least, usually happened was the ball entered, dragged in the silk after it. And at least from all the accounts I've read of it, you could then simply pull on the silk shirt and not only would you drag the shirt out of the wound, but along with it came the ball. That and supposedly the resistance from teh shirt being dragged in helped slow the ball abit. The real big 'protection' from it though was that uppon extraction, you were left with a relatively clean wound. And so if you surived the hit, you were far less likely to die later due to severe infection of the wound.
Now that isnt realy much of an issue these days. But what really makes alot of body armor heavy these days from what I understand is the steel/ceramic plates etc. I havent really followed modern development of armor that closely, so I at least have to ask the question of.. what exactly is there out there now? Thats the latest greatest in personal balistic protection?
Kevlar and similar are of course big ones. Hell Kevlar is so common now it's used in boot laces. And I know Kevlar is hardly the end all be all. Also a kevlar vest, while it can be rather hot to wear in the summer. Isnt really all that heavy. And while it wont stop the really big stuff it can still stop a fair bit of 'common' munition types on the lower spectrum of things.
I suppose the foam thing really is a big question mark for me. Because, I know I've seen at least a little bit about that kinda stuff. And alot of it seemed rather decent. But it really worked on that whole kinetic factor again. Becuase thats really what does the damage for most rifle rounds. The bullet shape and design of course plays a good part in it's penetrative capabilities, so too the actual composition of the bullet. But take enough kinetic force away from that 7.62mm round and just about anything can stop it. The real trick of course, is doing that in the first place.
As I understand it, Kevlar and balistic foams basically do tha by dispursing some of the force of the hit across the entire surface. Which is really the aim of all personal armor. It's just that most of it really doesnt do a good enough job of that to stop the typical miltary round. So you go to hard surfaces. Ceramics does a great job of that... once. Maybe twice. But then it's so broken up it's no good at all from what I understand. So then you go to steel. Steel is alot heavier and harder. So it stops more.. but... then it's totally inflexible and doesnt really do such a hot job of spreading the impact around.
So is there anything more modern, that in conjuction will do the job at least a little better? Enough to make a difference without rendering a person near immobile?
Of course what I'm really waiting for is the day power storage catchs up with the rest of technology. And then some one can design a proper powersuit. Which will really help get rid of alot of the weight issues. Which then opens up more materials for use as armor. Course you still need to get the cost down a good deal for it to be justifiable.
Ultimately the article leaves out too many details, and while the pictures are decent. They dont really show enough of the suit to get a good overal 'idea' of just how blocky some parts of the suit really are (or arnt). Ultimately though I'd really just call his suit a 'proof of concept' prototype. Considering he's doing this all out of his own pocket, even if it cant stop military rounds I'm rather impressed. What he really needs is some one to pick up the idea and run with it. Keep him in the loop since he's proven he can make stuff work. Hook him up with a few more experts and more importantly the actual funding and resources needed to turn out a proper finished (And tested) product.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| I'm not so sure about the weight issue. Look at the weight of full plate armor from the 1500's 1600s. |
In that period you start seeing some ridiculously heavy cuirasses to counter developments in firearms, but anything a footman would be carrying certainly shouldn't weigh more than ~30kg, with ~22-26kg being quite common for a late 14th-early 15th century full suit of combat (not tourney) plate. And none of those, of course, would be worth shit against modern firearms.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| Modern materials can make for a pretty light suit overall and still give you even more protection than an old full plate suit. |
Absolutely. A modern 14lb "cuirass" (level III-A vest with lightweight level III rifle plates) provides orders of magnitude more protection than any sort of personal protection medieval or renaissance man ever dreamed of. But that's only for most of the torso -- getting the same sort of protection all over the body would weigh at least as much as a 14th-15th century suit of full plate and would be hideously expensive. You can bloody well forget about getting 20kg of precision engineered boron carbide plating with polyethylene backing made into a fitting bodysuit at $2000 each. $50,000 is a conservatice estimate, and you'd have to constantly replace the plates.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| I'd hardly expect a suit to take a direct blast from a grenade however. Afterall I dont think there's any body armor out there that really can. Even a bomb blast suit has it's limits and thats definately not the kind of armor you can just prance about in. |
Depends on what kind of grenade you're talking about. A 40mm HEDP head on? Certainly not, anything that can penetrate most APCs and IFVs is not going to be defeated by body armor any time soon. A frag hand grenade detonating in contact? A body suit with a high level of fragmentation protection, like an uparmored EOD suit, should be able to handle that without the person inside being seriously injured except possibly from overpressure effects.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| I'm also currious as to what exactly that 'balisic foam' was that the article mentions. |
Never heard of it, which is pretty good reason for doubting its effectiveness. If something were as cheap and easily available as this foam, as it must be if this guy got a hold of it with his $15k budget, as well as being lightweight and effective against ballistic threats, the military would be all over it. Seems more likely its a hard filler material, for making filling the gaps and making the plastic stick rigidly to the actual armor plates.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| I at least have to ask the question of.. what exactly is there out there now? Thats the latest greatest in personal balistic protection? |
Boron carbide is, I believe, the best for stopping high velocity rifle projectiles at minimum thickness and weight. This is what the US military uses in the Interceptor Small Arms Protective Inserts, for example. Silicon carbide also sees a fair bit of use, as does alumina (aluminum oxide). Those are the three major materials for lightweight, thin rifle plates. Polyethylene and similar plates are also lightweight but very thick and, AFAICT, aren't hard enough to be good at defeating armor piercing munitions. High quality plates made of the best materials can easily cost $1000 each or more, and that's for a coverage of 10" x 12" on the chest and back, with options for the sides, groin, and back of the neck/head.
To protect you from similar threats, an armor steel plate (as hard or harder than anything they had in pre-modern suits of plate armor, but far less hard than the ceramic materials) has to be much heavier than any of the above, but is of course far cheaper as well.
Flexible body armor, to protect the wearer from fragmentation and handgun threats, is still made from similar, if slightly improved, materials as it was when it first started coming out: Kevlar, Twaron, Spectra Shield/Dyneema and Gold Flex, etc. A 4lb vest of these can cover most of your torso and protect you (stop and significantly reduce the impact) from anything up to and including high-velocity 9x19mm FMJs and .44 Magnum deforming rounds. These vests are largely useless against any high velocity rifle rounds.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| But take enough kinetic force away from that 7.62mm round and just about anything can stop it. The real trick of course, is doing that in the first place. |
Well, yeah. If you want to stop something, getting rid of its kinetic energy is a good way to do that.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| Ceramics does a great job of that... once. Maybe twice. But then it's so broken up it's no good at all from what I understand. |
Some ceramic materials can manage several less energetic impacts. There are unitary ceramic plates out there that can beat both the NIJ level IV and level III standards -- ie. they can stop at least one .30-06 armor piercing round, but also 6 or more slightly spaced 7.62x51mm FMJ impacts. Other designs, like Dragon Skin or the one on the bottom of this page, get around this by using a large number of smaller pieces of ceramic materials, so that a part of the armor can fail but the rest can still defeat the threats.
Militaries don't seem to be interested in full body rigid armor suits at the moment, and I can certainly understand why, so they are not going to run with this idea. They have their own projects, and have had for some time, for creating flexible armor to cover the majority of an infantryman's body with the possibility of rigid armor add-ons. Most limb armor that can defeat the threats a soldier is likely to face simply reduce mobility too much to be feasible.
Indeed. That 'Dragonskin' armor though I think ultimately goes back to a more reliable design theory at least. You have the benifit effectively of more 'rigid' armor. But still an extremely good degree of mobility for the protection offered.
I also cant help but wonder about the comments of the testing. And the accusations of 'testing being biased'. Afterall there's a proven history there with 'biased' testing. Just look at the Bradley APC. There was even a movie made out of that debacle that was abit of a parody but based on the actual circumstances of the testing.
Course thats the problem when you classify it all to hell and back. The counter to that of course is the high recommendation of it's use for insurgants.
But that really could just be a design flaw. Either way our bear suit friend might still come up with some really nifty stuff if he could find some one to properly back him financially. I also didnt put much stock in his price estimates. Sure... maybe you could do it for 2 grand a suit if you werent paying the assembly workers and you werent masprodducing the armor in large quantities. And then paying shipping and handling costs, doing quality control tests etc.
His own suit gets around the mobility issue though one very simple way. The major joints are -not- protected at all.
Thats not something I'd consider an 'ideal' situation. At the very least if your going full body protection I'd like to see at least something that can stop a knife or light fragments over the joints myself. Though I dont know what that would do to your mobility there either. But you do have to take it into consideration.
Also, on teh matter of full plate armor, there are complete, full plate 'proofed' suits out there that weigh about 20lbs total. 'Proofed' meaning they can and infact DID stop a gun of it's time from penetrating. Thats infact what 'proofing' ment for full plate. They litterally took a gun and shot it. It's why so many suits have one or two dents in the chest plate.
Of course thats also why by the mid to late 1600's suits fell out of disuse. Firearms got stronger and so the only suits of armor from those time periods are purely for show. Though they did at least have the benifit of being able to stop a blade I suppose. And yeah by the napoleonic wars only the curisass was able to actually stop a musket ball. But then... the damn things were so heavy that when having to flee on foot the troops ditched em on a regular basis.
On the issue of ballistic foam. Its I think the first time I've ever heard of its application to body armor. I think the only times I've ever heard of it used before is as an 'enhancement' to walls and such.
Even with the previously mentioned idea of adding in a personal AC unit.. Eh.. I think folk are overesitmating their ablity on the side of the cheap ones. They might keep you on a hot day in north america. I seriously doubt they'd keep you cool in a hot day in the desert. You'd also have to make it a sort of secondary lining. Afterall you wouldnt want something like that as part of your suit in the winter. One could argue, say.. if it was done with some liquid heat exhcnage system that you could instead make it heat the body.. yes.. that -sort- of works. THe problem is long enough exposure and the tubes would become fragile, crack. And then the whole damn thing will freeze on you. It's been tried before and failed miserably under actual 'stress tests'.
Also of issue is the other thing with armor. You need something thats ideally 'all terrain'. Something that works just as well at -50c as it does at 50c. Not to mention something that works just as well in a hot and wet jungle (like say.. Vientnam) as it does in sand (Iraq, Afghanistan) or in the freezing cold (Arctic, Antarctica)
At the very least you certainly need to test it under those conditions so you know ahead of time what it's failures will be under certain conditions before hand. So even if something specialized to the enviroment is needed, it can at least be developed for such. Maybe even as a modular addon or some such.
Suits like this though are at least a 'first step'. Really crap like this I think will ultimately prove whats practical, whats possible, whats totally impractacle. And more importantly? Show what -might- be possible in the future with refined technology.
In either case I allways find stuff like this interesting. Modern technology drives Science Fiction, and Scifi drives modern technology. As much as people mock sci-fi and 'total nerds' like die hard treckies. Alot of the crap those folk come up with even as a total out the ass pure theory based on currently non existant science... at the same time some of it IS based on real hard scientific facts and theories. And if nothing else it's definatley provided the motiviation for some folk out there. There was a while back some time last year a tech article I read. They'd interviewed some folk about their inspiration behidn making certain protable devices. Out of about 12 reviewed... 3 of em quoted something out of Star Trek being the thing that gave them the idea. One guy is working on basically making the tricorder for example. He's got some sorta prototype that... apparently actually sorta works. Not very well.. but it actualy does do some of the stuff the tricoders in the Movies/TV series can do. It's also alot bulkier but again.. that just requires refinment and miniaturization of current technology.
I mean go back 40 years and suggest that we'd have the internet and virtual reality. People would say your crazy. But we have it today. And VR is starting to pop up alot more. And more and more it's even targeted at the 'average gamer'. 'VR' gaming goggles and gloves are the real big thing right now. Lately it's been in holographic computer displays for the home.
But me? I'm still waiting for my:
Augmented Reality
Plasma Rifle
Ruthininum coated Stealth Power Suit (now with Jetpack action!)
And spaceships so I can go out and 'KICK SOME ALIEN ASS!'
I also cant help but wonder about the comments of the testing. And the accusations of 'testing being biased'. Afterall there's a proven history there with 'biased' testing. Just look at the Bradley APC. There was even a movie made out of that debacle that was abit of a parody but based on the actual circumstances of the testing.
Course thats the problem when you classify it all to hell and back. The counter to that of course is the high recommendation of it's use for insurgants.
But that really could just be a design flaw. Either way our bear suit friend might still come up with some really nifty stuff if he could find some one to properly back him financially. I also didnt put much stock in his price estimates. Sure... maybe you could do it for 2 grand a suit if you werent paying the assembly workers and you werent masprodducing the armor in large quantities. And then paying shipping and handling costs, doing quality control tests etc.
His own suit gets around the mobility issue though one very simple way. The major joints are -not- protected at all.
Thats not something I'd consider an 'ideal' situation. At the very least if your going full body protection I'd like to see at least something that can stop a knife or light fragments over the joints myself. Though I dont know what that would do to your mobility there either. But you do have to take it into consideration.
Also, on teh matter of full plate armor, there are complete, full plate 'proofed' suits out there that weigh about 20lbs total. 'Proofed' meaning they can and infact DID stop a gun of it's time from penetrating. Thats infact what 'proofing' ment for full plate. They litterally took a gun and shot it. It's why so many suits have one or two dents in the chest plate.
Of course thats also why by the mid to late 1600's suits fell out of disuse. Firearms got stronger and so the only suits of armor from those time periods are purely for show. Though they did at least have the benifit of being able to stop a blade I suppose. And yeah by the napoleonic wars only the curisass was able to actually stop a musket ball. But then... the damn things were so heavy that when having to flee on foot the troops ditched em on a regular basis.
On the issue of ballistic foam. Its I think the first time I've ever heard of its application to body armor. I think the only times I've ever heard of it used before is as an 'enhancement' to walls and such.
Even with the previously mentioned idea of adding in a personal AC unit.. Eh.. I think folk are overesitmating their ablity on the side of the cheap ones. They might keep you on a hot day in north america. I seriously doubt they'd keep you cool in a hot day in the desert. You'd also have to make it a sort of secondary lining. Afterall you wouldnt want something like that as part of your suit in the winter. One could argue, say.. if it was done with some liquid heat exhcnage system that you could instead make it heat the body.. yes.. that -sort- of works. THe problem is long enough exposure and the tubes would become fragile, crack. And then the whole damn thing will freeze on you. It's been tried before and failed miserably under actual 'stress tests'.
Also of issue is the other thing with armor. You need something thats ideally 'all terrain'. Something that works just as well at -50c as it does at 50c. Not to mention something that works just as well in a hot and wet jungle (like say.. Vientnam) as it does in sand (Iraq, Afghanistan) or in the freezing cold (Arctic, Antarctica)
At the very least you certainly need to test it under those conditions so you know ahead of time what it's failures will be under certain conditions before hand. So even if something specialized to the enviroment is needed, it can at least be developed for such. Maybe even as a modular addon or some such.
Suits like this though are at least a 'first step'. Really crap like this I think will ultimately prove whats practical, whats possible, whats totally impractacle. And more importantly? Show what -might- be possible in the future with refined technology.
In either case I allways find stuff like this interesting. Modern technology drives Science Fiction, and Scifi drives modern technology. As much as people mock sci-fi and 'total nerds' like die hard treckies. Alot of the crap those folk come up with even as a total out the ass pure theory based on currently non existant science... at the same time some of it IS based on real hard scientific facts and theories. And if nothing else it's definatley provided the motiviation for some folk out there. There was a while back some time last year a tech article I read. They'd interviewed some folk about their inspiration behidn making certain protable devices. Out of about 12 reviewed... 3 of em quoted something out of Star Trek being the thing that gave them the idea. One guy is working on basically making the tricorder for example. He's got some sorta prototype that... apparently actually sorta works. Not very well.. but it actualy does do some of the stuff the tricoders in the Movies/TV series can do. It's also alot bulkier but again.. that just requires refinment and miniaturization of current technology.
I mean go back 40 years and suggest that we'd have the internet and virtual reality. People would say your crazy. But we have it today. And VR is starting to pop up alot more. And more and more it's even targeted at the 'average gamer'. 'VR' gaming goggles and gloves are the real big thing right now. Lately it's been in holographic computer displays for the home.
But me? I'm still waiting for my:
Augmented Reality
Plasma Rifle
Ruthininum coated Stealth Power Suit (now with Jetpack action!)
And spaceships so I can go out and 'KICK SOME ALIEN ASS!'
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| Also, on teh matter of full plate armor, there are complete, full plate 'proofed' suits out there that weigh about 20lbs total. |
Late 14th century full plate armor currently resting in museums generally weighs in the 50-60lb range. Unless you've got linkage, I think perhaps what we've got here is a particularly light suit of armor (almost certainly not of proof vs. firearms unless this is mid-14th century or the maker was cheating) and a case of mistaken unit, ie it weighed 20kg/44lbs.
Body air conditioning systems are being developed, indeed mostly as a separate liner or underwear with its own batteries. I remember seeing prototypes several years back. I guess they figured for the time being carting a lot of water around is cheaper and doesn't weigh much more than the batteries required for the cooling system.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| Suits like this though are at least a 'first step'. Really crap like this I think will ultimately prove whats practical, whats possible, whats totally impractacle. And more importantly? Show what -might- be possible in the future with refined technology. |
Well, as I said, militaries have their own projects for such things, the status and results of which are often public, so you usually don't have to hypothesize based on toys (however neat) some freak builds in his shed.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||||
Late 14th century full plate armor currently resting in museums generally weighs in the 50-60lb range. Unless you've got linkage, I think perhaps what we've got here is a particularly light suit of armor (almost certainly not of proof vs. firearms unless this is mid-14th century or the maker was cheating) and a case of mistaken mass units, ie it weighed 20kg/44lbs. Body air conditioning systems are being developed, indeed mostly as a separate liner or underwear with its own batteries. I remember seeing prototypes several years back. I guess they figured for the time being carting a lot of water around is cheaper and doesn't weigh much more than the batteries required for the cooling system.
Well, as I said, militaries have their own projects for such things, the status and results of which are often public, so you usually don't have to hypothesize based on toys (however neat) some freak builds in his shed. |
I'll see if I cant find some links. And i"ll also dig out some of my ancient arms and armorment books. But deifnately there were very effective suits that actually didtn weigh a huge ammount 50-60lbs is starting to get into the streotype of where the'd fall down in a ditch and drown becuase they coudlnt get backup (Which... there were suits like that at one time period or another true nough but those were not the norm really). Then there's also the jousting suits which tended to go real heavy on the plating through several periods. Though later ones while they did have reinforced areas some of it is actulaly pretty damn thin in comparison.
I could have some of the time periods slightly mixed up as well. And of course there's allways the issue that some armor suits were NOT made for use. Just look at full plate costume armor. Now there's some freaky crap let me tell you. Ever see full plate with a metal skirt? Even has special removeable flaps front and back so you can wear it while riding a horse.
On the subject of some links:
Wiki is a supprisingly good source
Though looking over the weights again. Most of the 'proofed' suits clock in at about 40-45lbs.
Part of that though is becasue they started cutting down on the protected areas. So it really quickly became field and half plate as upposed to full plate armor.
The top two suits here are a pretty good example. The latter being a partial plate is even 17th century. Which sort of supprises me. By that time period as far as I know most plate was pretty much in the realm of 'display' rather than 'practical'.
Again though most of my sources I'll have to look up in the books. It's alas, especially with all the hits on D&D and other 'fantasy' games in there hard to find some decent english sources. Most of the suits I saw were in Germany and Vienna.
The other problem is between centuries the quality of armor went up and down a great deal. I cant remember specifically which periods but there was a span of about 100 years where body armro suddenly became not only a great deal more crude as a whole, but also as a result, alot heavier. Then when it was 'picked up again' as a standard and master smiths were once more making it. It became a great deal lighter while offering the same or superior protection.
Ultimately pertty much all the 'proofed' suits had one thing in common. The chest and in most cases ONLY the chest was further reinforced. Of course back then you pretty much allways went for the chest anyway because the damn things were so horribly innacurate.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| And i"ll also dig out some of my ancient arms and armorment books. |
You do that. Or ask around at The Armour Archive forums or check up on some other online sources like The Arador Armour Library.
A healthy adult human male can carry 50-60lbs that's well balanced throughout his body quite easily without being able to get up if he falls down. Else modern infantry would be utterly crippled on the battlefield. And that's how much actual suits of armor weighed -- unless you think some sneaky bastard has broken into every existing armor exhibit and attached extra armor plating to the suits.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| Ever see full plate with a metal skirt? |
You probably mean fauld and tassets, and yes, absolutely. That's a common piece of kit on full suits of plate, especially from 15th century onwards.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| Most of the 'proofed' suits clock in at about 40-45lbs. |
How did you get that from the Wiki article? It specifically states "While it looks heavy, a full plate armour set could be as light as only 20 kg (45 pounds) if well made of tempered steel." (Emphasis mine.)
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Well, with the exception that an MBT doesn't stop if it's faced with a pike wall. |
Dragon's teeth are probably the best approximation of "pike wall", and to my knowledge they'll still stop MBTs (though they're vulnerable to clearing, but so are pikemen).
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Dragon's teeth are probably the best approximation of "pike wall", and to my knowledge they'll still stop MBTs (though they're vulnerable to clearing, but so are pikemen). |
The obstacle clearance of most modern MBTs is around 3.5', so depending on the exact configuration of an obstacle field and the design of the obstacles themselves they might be able to stop or at least severely hinder the mobility of some MBTs momentarily.
It seems to me most anti-tank obstacles are rather easier to mow down with engineer tanks than pikemen are with swordsmen, halberdiers, etc., but you could definitely say dragon's teeth are the modern equivalent of the spikes that English longbowmen hammered down in front of or next to their positions on a battlefield. On their own, neither the spikes nor dragon's teeth are an issue -- it's only when there are troops ready to engage the enemy while it's negotiationg its way through the obstacle that the heavy cavalry or armored units have anything to fear.
Anyway, medieval heavy cavalry and modern armored units are like apples and orange: they're both fruit and there are several ways in which they can be compared, but the equivalencies only stretch so far.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| It seems to me most anti-tank obstacles are rather easier to mow down with engineer tanks than pikemen are with swordsmen, halberdiers, etc. |
I was thinking archers, but as you say, the comparisons, while plentiful, are very imprecise.
~J
Exactly -- the modern archers (ie. field artillery) are useless vs. anti-tank obstacles, for example.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Body air conditioning systems are being developed, indeed mostly as a separate liner or underwear with its own batteries. I remember seeing prototypes several years back. I guess they figured for the time being carting a lot of water around is cheaper and doesn't weigh much more than the batteries required for the cooling system. |
http://www.aspensystems.com/pmicroclimate-systems.html
Man-scale portable air conditioning units do exist, and that Aspen Systems has produced a lunchbox-sized, hand-carried unit for the Eurofighter pilot suit (for use prior to plugging into cockpit cooling systems.) The bulk of the unit is the batteries - the current cooling systems are a small portion of the boxes you can see in the link above.
However, the power draw of ~100 watts (to generate the cited 300W of cooling) is a bit beyond solar panels you'd want to stick on a person - you'd need a good share of the body covered in high-efficiency solar arrays to continuously generate 100W.
In Shadowrun, you're better off with batteries or fuel cells. A setting with man-portable laser weapons has some damned good batteries, and by 2070 fuel cells should be able to deliver 100W in a pretty compact form.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| Indeed. That 'Dragonskin' armor though I think ultimately goes back to a more reliable design theory at least. You have the benifit effectively of more 'rigid' armor. But still an extremely good degree of mobility for the protection offered. I also cant help but wonder about the comments of the testing. And the accusations of 'testing being biased'. Afterall there's a proven history there with 'biased' testing. Just look at the Bradley APC. There was even a movie made out of that debacle that was abit of a parody but based on the actual circumstances of the testing. |
I just saw a very interesting firsthand report of DragonSkin testing on www.classicbattletech.com
The original thread (about this Bear Suit-2, go figure):
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index....ic,13064.0.html
Look for "Darrian Wolfe's" posts in the thread.
The quotes:
I was injured at the time, assisting with Drills with whatever they needed while we waited for my Med Board to go through. We had a particular Drill Sgt. who felt that there was no reason anyone should have medication during Basic, and so took away some chick's anti-psychotics. The week before we started at the range. So, a psycho chick off her meds getting extra "loving" from every Drill on the range turns around and starts unloading towards us. Three people got shot before someone cold-cocked her. As it happened, one of them took 2 hits square in her IBA plate (which is required to go the the range, along with our new Kevlars). The shots barely penetrated (we heard from the MACK that the round that did did so with so little energy it stopped in her breast), and the treatment around the plate held the pieces in place (whereas the Dragon Skin Scales shifted under the finishing treatment). The guy that got hit took a round off the edge of his plate that splintered and penetrated the kevlar. For the record, the other chick who got hit took a round in the foot.
Following this BS was this big stink from the Drill Sgts about the Dragon Skin and how it would have stopped everything, so our Company CO scheduled some "remedial range time" on a Sunday. We headed out and got to watch.
Hopping back a few posts to the original results:
Dragon skin is crap. I had the privilige of being at Ft. Jackson when it was being considered. We all went out to the range to see how it stood up to fire (the Company commander had bought one, and wanted to show us why we weren't getting one, since before then it had gotten pretty good press). MSG Newman videotaped the thing.
5.56mm fire on semi-auto was stopped cold at 200 yards. 5.56mm on semi-auto had minimal penetration at 100 yards (inside of that and the round had lethal penetration - as in it went through the front and more than halfway through the back of the armor).
5.56mm on full-auto blew it apart at 50 yards (you don't use FA on an M16 at a range longer than that unless you're going suppressive fire - which isn't supposed to hit stuff anyway). Seems that there are these neat things in Dragon Skin - scales. On slow-mo replay, when one scale got hit, it deformed and moved the ones around it, which basically sent a chain reaction through the suit, resulting in large chunks getting blown off and completely rendering the suit moot.
This is to say nothing of what 7.62mm ammo is going to do to it at any but the longest ranges.
So, basically that was a life fire comparison of the current Interceptor Body Armor versus DragonSkin.
It's also reaffirms that the ability to order any recruit to do 200 push-ups does not grant the related ability to competently judge the psychiatric pharmacological needs of recruits.
I'm not sure why the hell they actually recruited someone that required anti-psychotic medication in the first place. Or is the new slogan now "Army of One: Multiple Personalities not counted."
| QUOTE (Trax) |
| I'm not sure why the hell they actually recruited someone that required anti-psychotic medication in the first place. Or is the new slogan now "Army of One: Multiple Personalities not counted." |
Maybe it was forward thinking. "Some day we can take her off her meds, then parachute her behind enemy lines."
| QUOTE (Cray74) | ||
Maybe it was forward thinking. "Some day we can take her off her meds, then parachute her behind enemy lines." |
While having PMS? Perhaps...
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| We had a particular Drill Sgt. who felt that there was no reason anyone should have medication during Basic, and so took away some chick's anti-psychotics. |
Maybe I'm just a sissy civilian, but denying someone their prescription medication seems very wrong.
It's considered cruel and unusual to deny a death row inmate prescription meds without a doctor's second opinion, it seems like our servicemen and women deserve slightly better treatment than that.
Of course, if she didn't have a prescription, that's entirely different. I certainly don't think a Drill Sgt should have to run and fetch an Aspirin every time some nancy-boy has a headache.
I suspect (and hope) there's more to this story than we're hearing.
Denying someone their medication is a no-no in the Air Force. The army, I'm not sure about. They've got a big anti-drug thing, so much so that they won't even let combat soldiers take amphetamines to improves concentration and stave off fatigue during long missions. But, incidents like that usually lead to someone getting an other-then-honorable discharge in addition to the shooter.
| QUOTE (Trax) |
| I'm not sure why the hell they actually recruited someone that required anti-psychotic medication in the first place. Or is the new slogan now "Army of One: Multiple Personalities not counted." |
Believe it or not, not all conditions treated with antipsychotics are debilitating, and of those that are, many of them are treatable to normal levels of functioning.
~J
shifting with the topic, The whole subject of mental disease and the US armed forces in general is a crazy(hah) one.
can you get in with a history of treated ADHD?
No, unless you get a rare waiver. (which is what I'm currently shooting for to get into the navy)
how many people in the US military are treated for ADHD?
5%, just like the civilian population.
can you get in with a history of treated ADHD?
No, unless you get a rare waiver. (which is what I'm currently shooting for to get into the navy)
how many people in the US military are treated for ADHD?
5%, just like the civilian population.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Believe it or not, not all conditions treated with antipsychotics are debilitating, and of those that are, many of them are treatable to normal levels of functioning. ~J |
And we see what happens when you deny someone said normal level of functioning, hehehe.
I wish the DI had been the one who got shot. If not, at least I hope he was given an other-than-honorable discharge. Does the army have a "Too gorram stupid to be in the Army" discharge?
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
You do that. Or ask around at The Armour Archive forums or check up on some other online sources like The Arador Armour Library. |
I keep meaning to pull out that damn book when I get home but forgetting too.
Feel free to pester me about it. I'm going to remember to do it at some damn point or other. 
Oi.
And thing is yeah not -all- 'proofed' suits are as light. But there were quite a few clocking in under 60lbs by a fair chunk in Vinna that had been 'proofed'. Though what they dont say to my recollection is usualy if it was done with a pistol or a musket. Which makes a hell of alot of difference. In some cases they cant even tell since there's no documentation on it either way and the dent could be arguably from either. Their also of course, not about to start firing guns at it 'just to find out' I'm sure
I do also know howeveer that they did point out at least in Vienna that there was a very big discrepancy between various suits. Based to various degrees on the skill of the armorsmith, as well as the actual quality of the metals used at the time. I do however recall being quite supprised at how thin some of the 'rpoofed' armor really was. Same with alot of the jousting armor. That of course doesnt necessarily mean it was light to wear by any means. I also know there was a huge difference in the quality of armor not only in Vienna but between the suits I saw in Vienna and ones in a museum from the same/similar time periods out near Aalen. Cant remember the name of the place for the life of me though. Some small castle or other thats been turned into a museum.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| But there were quite a few clocking in under 60lbs by a fair chunk in Vinna that had been 'proofed'. |
No doubt. As I said, the most common range for full plate seems to be between 50lbs and 60lbs. Apart from certain suits having better coverage, more overlapping and thicker plates (usually around 1.2 to 1.5mm, IIRC), there's also the simple fact that a suit for a smaller guy is going to be lighter.
And of course, whether the "proofing" was done with a full powder charge or not.
Like, yeah, no armorsmith ever cooked the results by using a less-than-full charge. Riiight.
Like, yeah, no armorsmith ever cooked the results by using a less-than-full charge. Riiight.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| And of course, whether the "proofing" was done with a full powder charge or not. Like, yeah, no armorsmith ever cooked the results by using a less-than-full charge. Riiight. |
Your forgetting also the differences in black powder. Cant 'cook' the power ammount because the customer is using his own tools? Why offer up the powder! afterall it's all the 'same' isnt it?
Not really.
And yeah thats one thing to take into consideration Austere. The average height of a man in the 13th century is not the same as the average height of a man today for example. Around here at least average height is around 6 feet or so. Back then I think it was closer to 5 or so if I recall. Even in the Napoleonic era folk were generally shorter. Not allways of course. But the 'average' was definately shorter than it is today, at least from what I've repeatedly heard from alot of museums and such.
Average height certainly changes, but IIRC the middle ages were a time of unusual height amongst Europeans. I'm not sure when shrinking began in the region, nor how quickly it happened, but I'd doubt the average dropping so much so quickly.
~J
~J
Yeah, and in the ancient times people were even shorter, particularly the Romans.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Average height certainly changes, but IIRC the middle ages were a time of unusual height amongst Europeans. I'm not sure when shrinking began in the region, nor how quickly it happened, but I'd doubt the average dropping so much so quickly. |
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