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MITJA3000+
Like, what about the Manitou in AMC?
And what's up with Quebec now that CatCo is gone?
And was there any bloodshed when Ute joined Pueblo?
Where did the Princes go in the Tir, because IIRC the Royal Hill got trashed?
Where's Daviar?
Wakshaani
QUOTE

Like, what about the Manitou in AMC?


They're still there, doing, you know ... Manitou stuff.

QUOTE

And what's up with Quebec now that CatCo is gone?


Catco's a far cry from gone, it just isn't a Triple-A anymore, dropping back to Double-A status and having Ares chew on it s'more. Basicly, it still operates outside of Quebec, but, by and large, it slithered back behind the trade barriers and said "I'm not coming out until you play nice!"

QUOTE

And was there any bloodshed when Ute joined Pueblo?


Not really, as it was a sort of humanitarian gesture. The UTE was starving and broke, with nothing going for it, while teh PCC was expanding, dripping with cash, and had just aquired a bunch of land *anyway*, so might as well get an entire meal at once. Probably a few grumbles, here and there, but, overall, it was a popular move.

QUOTE

Where did the Princes go in the Tir, because IIRC the Royal Hill got trashed?


Depends on which. Some fled, some went underground, some are still there and active in politics, some helped teh rebellion and got status, and so on. We'll eventually get full details about this when a new Tir update rolls out. When they're ready for submissions, I plan to be all over this one. smile.gif

QUOTE

Where's Daviar?


Probably in a tub, washing her LBNs. smile.gif

(This last one, tho, is seriously a fantastic question. She's the Last Dunklezhan Player and everyone's curious about where she'll wind up.

Me?

I'd lay odds on her turning up in Ghostwalker's camp at some stage.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
QUOTE


Where did the Princes go in the Tir, because IIRC the Royal Hill got trashed?



Depends on which. Some fled, some went underground, some are still there and active in politics, some helped teh rebellion and got status, and so on. We'll eventually get full details about this when a new Tir update rolls out. When they're ready for submissions, I plan to be all over this one. smile.gif

...you are not the only one, Considering I currently live in the RL version of the Tir, and had actually written up Portland before the TT sourcebook was originally released, I feel I have a vested interest in this. I had run a very detailed campaign years ago involving the TT, and TT canon plays a major part of the novelisation exercise Making of a Runner - Kyoto Kid that I wrote last year (this was the result of a thread on "what would make someone become a shadowrunner").
ChicagosFinest
LOL I heard that outside of Seattle the northwest is pretty lame. I mean that with no offense there is just not a whole lot going on (I heard this from someone who is from Seattle).

With that said how do you plan to add some excitement to the wilderness?
Kyoto Kid
..ahem...

Portland is not the wilderness, thank you very much.

Considering the city is no doubt going through a major power transition after the Council of Wimps packed it in, it could actually become a pretty good location setting.

...particularly with the secessionist rumblings up north in the Metroplex.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
QUOTE


Where did the Princes go in the Tir, because IIRC the Royal Hill got trashed?



Depends on which. Some fled, some went underground, some are still there and active in politics, some helped teh rebellion and got status, and so on. We'll eventually get full details about this when a new Tir update rolls out. When they're ready for submissions, I plan to be all over this one. smile.gif

...you are not the only one, Considering I currently live in the RL version of the Tir, and had actually written up Portland before the TT sourcebook was originally released, I feel I have a vested interest in this. I had run a very detailed campaign years ago involving the TT, and TT canon plays a major part of the novelisation exercise Making of a Runner - Kyoto Kid that I wrote last year (this was the result of a thread on "what would make someone become a shadowrunner").

Still waiting for that email, by the by. smile.gif

As for me, I'm pretty dang far from teh RL location, but, I've an interest in politics (Heck, just ran for office, in point of fact) and have a horrible addiction to sociology, so, I wanna see how it all plays out.
cetiah
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
As for me, I'm pretty dang far from teh RL location, but, I've an interest in politics (Heck, just ran for office, in point of fact) and have a horrible addiction to sociology, so, I wanna see how it all plays out.


I, for one, would feel so much safer with a Shadowrun GM in the White House.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (cetiah)
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 16 2007, 07:00 PM)
As for me, I'm pretty dang far from teh RL location, but, I've an interest in politics (Heck, just ran for office, in point of fact) and have a horrible addiction to sociology, so, I wanna see how it all plays out.


I, for one, would feel so much safer with a Shadowrun GM in the White House.

That's for 2020. biggrin.gif This year was teh State House of Representatives, my first-ever campaign. Sadly, I didn't win, BUT, made some inrods and handily won the only debate that we had.

Name reognition was a bear, tho, since I was running on a campign that was, shall we say, somewhat underbudgeted. (IE, the entire thing was run for less than the cost of an Ares Predator IV).

Planning ahead for the next time, tho!
cetiah
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
Name reognition was a bear, tho, since I was running on a campign that was, shall we say, somewhat underbudgeted. (IE, the entire thing was run for less than the cost of an Ares Predator IV).

Planning ahead for the next time, tho!


Wakshaani: "Redefining Homeland Security."
SL James
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 16 2007, 12:00 PM)
QUOTE

And was there any bloodshed when Ute joined Pueblo?


Not really, as it was a sort of humanitarian gesture. The UTE was starving and broke, with nothing going for it, while teh PCC was expanding, dripping with cash, and had just aquired a bunch of land *anyway*, so might as well get an entire meal at once. Probably a few grumbles, here and there, but, overall, it was a popular move.

My ass.

The Ute are racist idiots, and the PCC is probably the whitest of the NANs after it annexed southern California (in addition to just acting white). Plus there's the whole "you assholes blew up one of our sacred mountains fifty years ago" thing going on.

QUOTE (cetiah)
I, for one, would feel so much safer with a Shadowrun GM in the White House.

HAHAHAHAHA

QUOTE (MITJA3000+)
Where's Daviar?

If they're smart, Fanpro will never say. They have no good reason to do so, and many reasons not to upturn that rock for years.

It'd be just as stupid as the reconquest of the Tir taking less than 20-30 years.
Wakshaani
Before I start stumping and tossing campaign platforms, let's hop back to the Tir. smile.gif

A lil' nugget that Ihave was this: After teh revolution, one of the top leaders (Erika Telestran, for those playing at home) gave a rousing speech in front of a thron of supporters and, at the end of it, renounced her noble station; she furthermore denounced teh very notion of nobility vs equal from birth, and as a ceremonial casting off the old ways, cut back her hair from the "Tir Standard" waist-length locks to about chin length with a handy blade. By the time she popped onto teh trid the next day, this hacked hair had been transformed into a lovely chin-length bob but, more importantly, it'd become something of a fashion statement. All across the Tir, those inspired by the revolution and wanting to give a bit of a farewell salute to teh Tir of old matched her deed, hacking their hair off.

Yesterday's political statement became today's fashion statement and, at least for now, short hair rules the Tir... to be seen with long hair is to harken back to the time of the High Prince and is quite gauche. (Of course, fashion being fashion, this won't last for ever, but, for teh short term, if you want to portray a rebellious Elf sort, showing solidarity by snipping their hair back is the thing to do.)
SL James
Meanwhile eleven Paladins slipped into the shadows to plot a masterpiece of fascist vigilantism like Bruce Wayne at the end of the Dark Knight Returns.
PlatonicPimp
Actually thats anarchist rebellion at the end of the dark knight returns, but, you know, whatever. Superman always represented the fascism.

I love that bit about the hairstyles. Love it.
MITJA3000+
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
They're still there, doing, you know ... Manitou stuff.

Yeah, well, they were almost at a full civil war when SoNA came out, with the azzies playing a big part in it all. So I was just wondering what happened with the whole situation. But Manitou stuff is a good enough answer wink.gif
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
And was there any bloodshed when Ute joined Pueblo?


I don't know the answer for sure, but I agree with SL James that I don't see it being a very peachy unification. The Ute and Pueblo share some cultural background, but politically they were very different nations. While Ute did have severe economic problems, the jury is still out on whether joining the PCC solved them. Worse yet, the political problems are not going to magically go away; Ute's radical political parties (of which there are many) are going to have a whole host of issues with PCC's political structure.
SL James
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jan 16 2007, 09:37 PM)
Actually thats anarchist rebellion at the end of the dark knight returns, but, you know, whatever. Superman always represented the fascism.

Dude...

Batman is THE arch-fascist of DC superheroes.

QUOTE (The Dark Knight Returns)
You sold us out, Clark. You gave them--the power--that should have been ours. Just like your parents taught you to. My parents taught me a different lesson--lying in the street--shaking in deep shock--dying for no reason at all-- they taught me that the world only makes sense when you force it to...


QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
I don't know the answer for sure, but I agree with SL James that I don't see it being a very peachy unification. The Ute and Pueblo share some cultural background, but politically they were very different nations. While Ute did have severe economic problems, the jury is still out on whether joining the PCC solved them. Worse yet, the political problems are not going to magically go away; Ute's radical political parties (of which there are many) are going to have a whole host of issues with PCC's political structure.

That's because I didn't base my understanding of the area on what I learned watching a crappy '70s horror movie at 3 AM. Blowing up Redondo Peak would piss the Pueblos off for so many reasons, aside from the above, also being that it is almost center to where most of the 19 Pueblos are located.

There are a lot of reasons for both sides to be really pissed off at this annexation. Share dilution. Vast cultural and governance differences. Ethnic and tribal racism. Oh, yeah... It's a mess and a half.
Demonseed Elite
It makes for an interesting stew. Take all of Ute's looney fringe political groups, who came to existence primarily becuase of Ute's extreme form of direct democracy and toss them into a corporate governance structure based on shareholders. Add to that the fact that a number of Ute's looney fringe political groups were being backed by Aztlan and yeah...fun times!
Cynic project
Will they ever stop kicking California in the balls?
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Will they ever stop kicking California in the balls?

*shakes Magic 8-Ball*

Not Likely!
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (SL James)
There are a lot of reasons for both sides to be really pissed off at this annexation


So why/how did it happen in the first place? And would the PPC really have the military strength to take over both the Utes, and SoCal? Seems they'd be stretched pretty thin.
Cynic project
Um seeing as "SoCal" has more people than the rest of their land..I would say that this would only happen by "SoCal" willing and peacefully merging, and in doing so causing the centers of power to completely change. That being said the people who make shadowrun have shown they know more about programing A.I.s then about California.
fistandantilus4.0
sorry for the abbrv, tired of "typing" wink.gif

I couldn't really see a logical reason why they'd be able to take it over, so I'm wondering what could have prompted the people of "Souther California" to let them selves be annexed. Perhaps if they were hurting that badly for aid that the "California" goverment couldn't provide?
SL James
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
QUOTE (SL James)
There are a lot of reasons for both sides to be really pissed off at this annexation


So why/how did it happen in the first place? And would the PPC really have the military strength to take over both the Utes, and SoCal? Seems they'd be stretched pretty thin.

A) Because geopolitics is one of SR's biggest weaknesses.

B) Because it is land that used to be part of Spain and later Mexico.

C) Because it now borders Tir Tairngire.

As for how they did it, well... They did it on the cheap (not a radical guess, since lately SR has a horrible habit of ripping off RL stuff like a crappy (and that is saying something) version of Law & Order and making it even dumber), or given that PCC has one of the largest economies in the world... They hired a shitload of mercenaries.

QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jan 18 2007, 04:13 PM)
Um seeing as "SoCal" has more people than the rest of their land..I would say that this would only happen by "SoCal" willing and peacefully merging, and in doing so causing the centers of power to completely change. That being said the people who make shadowrun have shown they know more about programing A.I.s then about California.

To be fair, Dave Hyatt knows a thing or two about computers. However, you're right... Not everyone else did. *cough*Kenson*cough*
fistandantilus4.0
So James, what would you say would have had to happen in order to make it feasible?

And what does the Tir have to do with it?
SL James
Hestaby.

What would have to happen? Look, I have no problem with doing crazy shit. Nigel Findley made a cool setting out of PCC (although it carries way too much of a Northern NM/Southern CO vibe and forgets about Phoenix most of the time). But he made a lot of cool settings, all of which are cool in part because unlike Seattle, if you screw up, Large Men With Guns will fucking KILL YOU. It's the half-assed attempts at trying to be "realistic" and failing miserably that pisses me off. I like the idea of PCC annexing Ute, not least of all because the folks in Santa Fe now have control of most of L.A.'s water supply, barring smugglers and irradiated waste (pure H2O) from fusion plants along the coast. But I digress. What was the question again?
fistandantilus4.0
biggrin.gif
What would have had to have happened for it to make sense for the PCC to take over Southern California?
Fortune
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
What would have had to have happened for it to make sense for the PCC to take over Southern California?

They'd have to ask nicely. wink.gif
fistandantilus4.0
you're a lot o' help. nyahnyah.gif
cristomeyers
Open warfare comes to mind.
Sir_Psycho
the BBB.

babes bikini's and beaches, right? RIGHT?
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (cristomeyers)
Open warfare comes to mind.

Right, so they go to war and take the place. So how do they hold it? How are they supposed to spread their forces that thin? A country basically made up of New Mexica, Nevada, and Arizona relly isn't going to have that much to offer. I live in that area (Utah) and a lot of that land is desert. Then there's the fact that they annexed the Ute nation.

What if, in either of those areas, ther was an insurgency, whihci s very possible. How are they going to have the forces to secure those areas. Hell, if ElInfernio is as bad as it's supposed to be, the damn gangs would out number the army forces. I just don't see that as a practical, lasting approach. I don't disagree that they could roll in and take it, but holding is a different matter IMO, unless they somehow convinced Southern Californians that they wanted them there. And if Saito's ousted, then the goverment's going to have a bit more power.

Depending on the deatils of Saito's ousting, the goverment could either has some serious backing, or or strong militia/army of it's own. L.A. is a huge source of goverment revenue, not to mention the areas around it, like say Hollywood. Saito taking over S.F. is one thing. The business there are still "in California", and still paying taxes, still contributing to the nation-state. S.Cali being taken as a PCC protectorate, you can bet where they're taxes are going.
Fortune
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)
babes bikini's and beaches, right?

So the PCC is going to take over Bondi next?
Fortune
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
you're a lot o' help.

Actually, I was being serious as well as attempting humor. I really don't see too many people living in 2070 California bitching too much about the PCC coming in and relieving them of their problems.
cristomeyers
The coup would create some chaos in the power structures of SoCal. Perhaps enough to convince them the PCC isn't all that bad.

Yeah, I know, I'm stretching. I'm still getting over reading about Israel nuking Libya back into the stone age and not immediately getting swarmed by every Arabic nation in the middle east.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jan 19 2007, 02:16 PM)
babes bikini's and beaches, right?

So the PCC is going to take over Bondi next?

grinbig.gif British secret service operatives already have the place secured.
Fortune
QUOTE (Newsfax Headline)
BBS foils PCC over BBB!
SL James
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Jan 18 2007, 07:34 PM)
biggrin.gif
What would have had to have happened for it to make sense for the PCC to take over Southern California?

The way they annexed it in YotC works fine, with the corps that already run southern California supplementing and cowing most of the people into accepting it as responsible government entering that will make it easier to take one of those guarded convoy trips out of the arcology or gated community/city.

Of course, the PCC laws involving incorporation in the country mean that the corps have to give up some ownership, but it's worth the price for subsidized development of infrastructure in the wake of mass destruction. You know how some people mentioned that PCC might somehow weasal its way onto the Corporate Court when they added new corps in SR4? They did, in a way, because Horizon is partly owned by the country.

Trust me, if I was that averse to what happened in YotC, I'd still be giving the author all sorts of Hell.

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Depending on the deatils of Saito's ousting, the goverment could either has some serious backing, or or strong militia/army of it's own.

It does. Two, actually.

They're called Ares Arms Military Systems Division, and Knight Errant.
Wakshaani
There's also the fact that, while the PCC wasn't exactly *asked* to take over LA, it was pretty obvious that the Azzies were going to roll in and take over before the Pueblo beat 'em, to the punch. "If you don't like it, we can always pull out and let Aztechnology in instead," is a pretty powerful card to play, you gotta admit.

As for teh Ute, it depends on how well that teh PCC was able to tame radical elements. Just bringing in food, medicine, and jobs quells a LOT of the issues that they were up in arms about. The old, "A middle class never revolts," schtick. When you have it crappy, you have nothing to lose in an uprising, but, when you start getting a house, nice clothes, and so on, it takes a lot more to make you risk it.
"Rawr, we need to rise up and kick out these damn Puebs!"
"Chummer, chillax! They're handing out food, that new medicine we got saved my neice's life, and we have job interviews next week. Stiffle that talk, alright?"
"*grumble grumble*"
Demonseed Elite
Agreed with the above. The annexation of Los Angeles wasn't exactly invited by L.A., but the PCC was the best option they had. The Sacramento government wasn't about to come to L.A.'s rescue (if they even could) and Aztlan was already eyeballing southern Californian beachfront property. Los Angeles was a city of fear under a thin layer of glitz, with walls seperating out sections of the city ready and willing to tear each other apart. Many of the Los Angeles Powers-That-Be approve of the idea of a strong government that might actually keep them somewhat safe. At least it gives them someone to complain to who actually might listen.

As for the Ute annexation, I don't really know yet. I'm sure it'll have to be explained at some point, but I don't think that's been determined yet. I personally believe that no matter how it's explained, it shouldn't be as pretty as the Los Angeles annexation.
mfb
QUOTE (SL James)
It does. Two, actually.

They're called Ares Arms Military Systems Division, and Knight Errant.

indeed. this was shown all the way back in SOTA:64, when a certain starchy colonel (lt. colonel? sergeant? knight-captain?) assembled an "army of shadowrunners" to repel Saito's Chico-Oroville landgrab.
SL James
Lieutenant Colonel.

Supposedly his XO is a Major. Some limey. Goes by the name of Smith.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Jan 16 2007, 06:31 PM)

...you are not the only one, Considering I currently live in the RL version of the Tir, and had actually written up Portland before the TT sourcebook was originally released, I feel I have a vested interest in this.  I had run a very detailed campaign years ago involving the TT, and TT canon plays a major part of the novelisation exercise Making of a Runner - Kyoto Kid that I wrote last year (this was the result of a thread on "what would make someone become a shadowrunner").

Still waiting for that email, by the by. smile.gif

...coming in just a bit. Getting it ready for you now.

Had to go through the old (paper) archives. Takes a bit longer when there is no indexing or keyword I can just punch in.

Sorry for the wait.

Just sent it a few moments ago...
Wakshaani
No biggie! It's a favor after all!

As for teh Tir, it's less the location than it is my sociologist side going all a-pumpin'. New culture! Echoes of the Old! Unique social structure! Chaos and rebellion!

WHEEE!!!

Does my crusty ol' heart good, it does.

Mind you, what I'd probably go with is something similar to the previous system, but more Parlimentary, kinda *vaguely* like modern England, where the High Prince ... well, he's not a figurehead, but, he's more sizzle than steak, if you know what I mean.

Below him would be the 'upper house' of the Council of Princes (13 members, one is elected to be the High Prince) and the 'lower house', which is made up of non-Royals.

The social stratification would remain, since the populace was generally into it, but teh Proctor's side, where everything was behind closed doors and influenced is gone, so, with a transparent system, you could failry shift to a new station ... the upward mobility is *huge* for the middle class, who would wind up outmaneuvering the rebels who wanted the whole thing torn down instead. And then...

...

...

Ahem.

Almost got into a ramble, there!
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